Thanks John
Next question. Since I will probably be converting a sloop to a schooner, how do I determine mast position?
Thanks
Don
Vancouver Island
JayDee’s method is a good one, but there are some other ways to determine the position and ballast that needs to be added.
For small amounts of ballast (up to about 10 lbs)
Take a cup (large drinking cup if you are working with 5 lbs or less, a Folgers coffee jar should hold 10 lbs) and place it on the deck of the boat. Then, fill it with lead shot or BBs. To adjust the trim, move the cup forward or aftward on the deck. If your boat is small enough, you can do this in your bathtub and should be able to sight the waterlines at both ends of the boat yourself.
Once you get the boat to float on the waterline, then mark the position of the cup. If it is filled evenly and is level on the deck, you can mark the front and back of the bottom of the cup and then measure halfway between these marks when you remove the cup.
Then, remove the cup and weight it. That is the ballast you need…
As far as the rig position, I think that schooners are a little less sensitive to this than sloops are. For one thing, you can adjust the trim of the two mainsails relative to each other to get the boat well balanced. If you have too much weahter helm, ease the mizzen sail a bit. If you have too much lee helm, trim the mizzen. Given the large seperation distance between the two sails, it does not take much to get the boat in balance.
I saw in an earlier post that you are going for a Mari Cha type rig? Cool. Have you found your rigs yet? The main constaint on rig placement will be leaving enough room between the masts to allow the main boom to swing forward fo the mizzen mast. I think you will find that if the jib tack is right at the bow and the main boom can clear the mizzen boom, then you are going to have the mizzen boom clew fairly close to the transom leaving precious little room for the backstay. But if in doubt add an adjustable mast step for each mast and you should have enoughability to move the rigs fore and aft to adjust the balance…
OK, so here is an interesting question. When sailing dead downwind, what configuration would you put your sails in? do you have both mainsails on the same side, or do you goosewing one mainsail to the opposite side? What about the jib? Hmmmm…
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Will
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Will
Will Gorgen
Just want to point out, that while the topic is “Scale Sail”, the schooner discussion has taken top posts. There are a lot of alternatives to schooners - sneakboxes, catboats, sharpies, and a whole lot more are available for a “scale” build - especially for those a bit intimidated by planking up a curved hull. Many of the early 1900’s work boats can be turned from a static display to a working r/c control with only a little more effort. Most of the line drawings are available free via books at your local library. Wooden Boat magazine also runs free plans once in a while for a specific “older” wooden boat class or design, and they also have plans for sale as well.
Something that should really be discussed/considered is the “scale size” of the boat to be built. Taking a boat that used to be 190 feet overall, and bringing it down to a 1 or 2 meter size boat will kill off most detail. However, taking a 20 foot boat to the same reduced size might allow for more deck detail.
One can have a schooner like John’s at a very large reduced scale, while someone wanting to build a “real” boat could take an Optimist almost at full scale and convert to r/c control. Take that same Opti and use the scale John used on his schooner and it probably would not be big enough to consider for r/c control.
This brings up a question for JayDee and other “scale” builders - what do you use as a scale size to which you build? Is there a set of recognized scale reductions currently used on an international basis? The reason I ask, is that in the airplane world, there is a “Stand-off scale” and a quarter scale that I am aware of - even more I would guess. Does such an agreed upon scale exist for model sailboats? If not, how does one compete - or you don’t? I know of a block supplier who advertises 1" - 1.5" - 2" = 1 foot scale. Even at 1 inch = 1 foot, we are talking some serious sized boats - especially in the area of schooners. What is a good scale for most builders to be able to work to/with?
I think a topic discussion about size (overall and scale) might be helpful for those new builders who want to give “real sail boats” a try - whether from the 1800’s or modern day “real” boats!
Experienced views from John, Earl and others could be helpful for this topic.
Well Dick,
You pose an interesting question: Should there be an agreed upon scale. Of course you sort of answer your own question when you say " If not, how does one compete - or you don’t." I think that is the point. Are you going to compete? Would the real boats have competed? Would Hog Happy’s “Prince” have raced against an Optimist? Against a cat rigged work boat? Against Mari Cha? Against Bluenose? If you are going to set up a scale sail racing class, then you either need to all agree to build scale models of boats that would have actually sailed each other (like the J class) or you need to set up some sort of rule that produces scale boats that would be comparable enough in speed to race.
Or better yet, you don’t bother racing and you compete in some other way. “Parade of boat” type shows where the boats are judged on scale accuracy, handling through an obstacle course and perhaps a few other criteria might be a good venue for the scale sail class.
Another form of competition might involve competing the way the real boats did. In the case of the Prince and other battle ships, the competition would have been to blow a hole in the other boat with your cannons… I think it would be a pretty impressive show to reenact some battles between the Spanish Armada and the English Fleets. Or between Portugese trading ships and Pirates. Hmmmm…
Any takers?
- Will
Will Gorgen
Dick, You’re talking about two different types of “Scale” here. One type of scale has to do with realism ie “stand off scale” and the other kind of scale has to do with proportions ie “quarter scale”.
If you want to compete, there are a couple ways to do it.
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A scale (realism) contest where you provide documentation showing how much your model represents and sails like the real boat. Rules limiting dimension variations to 10 percent or less would be in effect and allowing variations such as false keels in order to make the boat r/c sailable. In this contest, you can do any scale (size)that you want. ( However the AMA limits the size of airplane models to 50 lbs, and I think that if somebody entered a real 1:1 boat would quickly find his boat full of holes[}}:-|>>][B)][:-brokenheart][:-scared])
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Then in the model airplane world, there is quarter scale racing. Basically racing any kind of airplane as long as it is a 1/4 inch = 1 foot stand off scale model of a real airplane. These planes are not required to be detailed down to the rivets. I think that in model sailboating, that would quickly become a one design class and there is already a few classes out there such as J-class, the Santa Barbaras and of course the Victorias, etc.
Will -
actually, my point wasn’t so much of racing, as it was directed toward a “practical size”
Using Johns scale as example, if one were to produce what “looked” like scale to his large schooner, a small whaleboat (example) would not be sailable by r/c (unless I am unaware of some micro size r/c components). On the otherhand, that same whaleboat, built to a larger scale to product a 36 to 39 inch long sailing boat, would make John’s boat look strange by comparison. Perhaps it really doesn’t matter, as each would build to suit his own taste and manageability. I guess, until I looked at the line drawing of the Walther Latham, I assumed (incorrectly) she was perhaps a 30 foot work boat. Not until I took the time to email Jeff about the plans did I realize it was really a 90 foot boat ! All I had before me was a solid block of wood, generally shaped to the lines but only 12 inches long.
“If” I were to build to a larger scale - a better question (perhaps) is what scale size are deck details, portholes, wheels, wood-sided blocks, etc. available commercially ---- before one would have to give consideration to building/fabricating/ casting one’s own “special sized” components. I would hate to get started at a specific size, only to find out it is a bit too small - or a bit too big.
It is those type of considerations where a new builder could use the experience of what is available to finish off the detail in the correct size/proportions. Perhaps this was a better way to ask. In the specific case of the schooner that is being considered at 1 Meter size, are there scale components available to be able to be used on a boat this size? Or - does the builder need to know ahead of time, that any deck detail, winches, cabins, railings, etc. will need to be home-fabricated.
edit: [added]
Perhaps a better way to express this is that a manufacturer makes Harkin fittings. At 1" = 1 foot, the boat would have to be a minimum of 14 inches wide (beam) to make the block, car and track “look” real and in perspective. Unfortunately - if the boat must have a 14-15 inch beam, then we are probably looking at an overall size of between 40 and 50 inches. Again using the 1 inch = 1 foot scale. A good close friend’s father built the wood strip GOLDEN DAISY (from the Gougeon shop) and I believe she was originally a 1 tonner - perhaps less - been about 30 years now. Anyway - built to IOR lines at the time, she was a very faithful replica of the big GOLDEN DAISY, but didn’t sail worth a darn as an r/c boat.
Nice reply John - educational too !
Appreciate the response. As far as “table sitters” - my introduction to r/c sailing happened at a local shopping mall back in Michigan - probably mid-to-late 1970’s.
Lots of sail boats (and airplanes) on display. Overheard a few owners of airplanes venture that “they enjoyed building - not flying or picking up pieces.” Didn’t hear that from the sailors at the show. Only later was I able to pick out the boats that appeared every spring at the mall - but were never seen on the water. Such a waste of talent and effort !
The Traditional Watercraft section of the USVMYG uses the rules of the San Diego Argonauts. This restricts models to scale models of pleasure schooners at 50 inches LOA on the deck. Since the rules combine racing plus judging, this evens out the racing, although of course at the expense of a having boats at all differerent scales.
As a rule of thumb, the adverse effects of scaling down and the positive effects of being down low to the water where the wind is light seem to balance out at about six feet or two meters LOA. That is, exact scale boats of this size seem to be able to sail well in all but the strongest winds.
A lesson one can learn from our Victorian forbears is that of the “lead centerboard.” They disguised added, lower, ballast by casting thick lead shaped like a centerboard in profile. This is a lot nicer looking in and out of the water than the usual fin and bulb solution.
One of our members, Andrew Charters builds big scale boats. His six foot long model of Herreshoff’s “Gloriana” is now in our exhibit at the Museum of Yachting in Newport. Attached is his nine foot (3 meter) long model of William Fife’s classic “Cicely.” I’m now trying to talk him into building a 12 foot “Satanita.” 
Cheers,
Earl
Download Attachment: [ Cicely June 14-04 355hrs #2.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Earl Boebert/200462520291_Cicely June 14-04 355hrs #2.jpg)
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I can not see spending X dollars to build a boat and then equip it for R/C sailing then not sail it. If a person is gong to “table sitter” then why bother to put radio equipment into the boat.
Have a friend that loves to build airplanes but hates flying. He builds them then sells them off to other flyers. Many give him the plans and materials so he can build the planes for them. One time he had 15 airplanes in his garage all at different stages of construction. had to park outside in the coldest winter we ever had. I asked why he builds and not fly the planes simple answer I like working with my hands. Worksd forhim I guess. Personally if I build it I want to sail it.
Jeff
Alberta
Well, that attempt at a download got a big fat 404. Let’s see if this works.
Cheers,
Earl
Download Attachment: [ Cicely.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Earl Boebert/2004625203351_Cicely.jpg)
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Earl -
Thanks for such a lovely photo - and compliments to the builder! You know, maybe if we all were to chip in, we could convince him to build a full size “J” ! After all - it is “Only” a little bit larger. Keep him increasing his boats by 1 or 2 meters with each build, and by the time he is ready to start on the “J”, we should have collected enough money to fund it ! [:D]
Dick,
If you are looking to build a model of an IOR era offshore racer such as a one tonner, then you should check out the Fairwind. The kit comes complete with lifelines, helm pedastal, scale winches, anchor, the works!
Some of our class members have done a really great job with the scale appearance of their boats:
http://home.mindspring.com/~telemark/fairwind/
And the best part is all those boats are fully capable race boats! Don’t be surprised if Chris Staiger’s boat “Pool Shark” wins the national championship this year (even with the real wood vaneer in the cockpit).
With a little effort, you could cut a 150% genoa for the thing and loose foot it! Of course if you put a genoa on it, then you would not be able to race it in the fairwind class… but you could have that as a part that you swap out (Genoa for scale events and the class legal jib for racing)…
Just a thought. (Small bit of class promotion as well…)
- Will
Will Gorgen
Earl
Where would a person get plans for the “Cicely”.
Thanks
Don
Vancouver Island
Will -
thanks for photos of the Fairwind. Hadn’t really thought that much about them as a consideration. Interesting that he used the green color, as I have an unfinished (what’s new) 1 Meter hull with deck and cabin that I built using a set of lines I lifted from several plan photos of a C&C 41 ! Even have the arched bridge skippers seat. Has railings made from thin aluminum welding wire, and wooden handrails on top of the coach house roof. I even made up a wooden dowel spinnaker pole - but intent was to leave it on deck. Biggest problem I ran into when activly building, is the inability to find a good toe-rail for each side. I started with a piece of balsa, drilled many holes and then split it’s length bisecting the holes. Everything was fine until I started to attach and curve to the deck/gunwales. I wound up with about 4 breaks in the length, and even CA glued and a slow bending process you could still see the flat spots. About that time (1999) I became interested in the multihulls, so kind of lost interest in the project. It too has the strange IOR type hull bulge that was predominant in the early/mid 90’s and after seeing the trend toward straight thin hulls, the project kind of got shelved. Mast and rigging was done, and even had rudder and keel with bulb done.
Seeing the photos makes me think of resurrecting the old project this winter.
By the way, the plastic “push-pins” make excellent winch representations - but all of the same size. None working of course. Having waited may be a benefit, since the guy making the miniature Harken blocks, tracks, cars, etc. is now back in business (I think) so it could be equipped with some realistic looking - but working - hardware, blocks, etc.
I also have a Victor 1 Meter hull waiting for completion. I started out wanting to make a good “LOOKING” boat that would sail, but then a few guys started to form a class for the Victor Cup boats. Before proceeding and not being class legal I held off, but managed to do a radius to transom so not sure if they are going to allow or not. By the way - the hull lines are based on the Mistral, according to George at Victor Products, so I guess I can plug a possible class too. And, even if you dump the entire kit, at about $150 you can wind up with a 1 Meter hull, Mistral lines, and just begin work on custom building from there. Saves a TON of time in not having to layup and fair the hull. Not sure of hull weight being plastic, but not a lot heavier than some glass hulls homemade. Best part is keel slot and rudder hole is prelocated, so you can build an extended 14 inch keel, and meet US1M class rules. Here are a few photos of the Victor 1 Meter as I await a class rules decision on if the profile change to hull side view is going to be OK - or illegal.
Download Attachment: [ VictorStar Side1.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/dick lemke/2004626154931_VictorStar Side1.jpg)
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Download Attachment: [ VictorStern1.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/dick lemke/2004626155017_VictorStern1.jpg)
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Download Attachment: [ smHullBottom.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/dick lemke/2004626155120_smHullBottom.jpg)
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Download Attachment: [ smIntBow.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/dick lemke/200462615526_smIntBow.jpg)
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A suggested alternative for someone looking for a class 1 Meter boat /hull that can be built competitive. Not a leading edge carbon fiber hull, but for a whole kit at around $150 - not a bad way to test the waters of a 1 meter class. Many have asked if anyone has built a competitive boat from the kit, but none to my knowledge have - albeit one is being built up in the northeast, and I am hoping to hear from Greg how well it sailed. My guess is this hull might also fit the IOM class since it is “plastic” - but would wait to hear from Rob Davis to be sure.
Just a passing thought - if legal, cut the keel and install a pie-shaped section to broaden out the stern into a wide skiff type hull, and then build the remainder using all the IOM high-tech goodies. If fast, wouldn’t that be a kick?
Jaydee…that was my point…that was why I chose the model of the Prince to build VS something even more detailed and longer to build.
I want to SAIL!
I can add more detail later if I chose.
Y’all take a close look at how the ballast is placed on my schooner…the pic in the swimming pool shows it hanging from below the keel. The keel/ballast bolts go all the way through the hull via glass bolt hole rods internally from the bottom of the hull to the underside of the deck and clever nuts concealed above deck hold it from dropping off. The nuts are hid inside a water barrel and funnel.
I just want to play!
Always choose the lesser of the two weevils!
Greetings
With scale sail models I have a question in regard to deck items.
Many of the sailboats have cabins and barrels set up on the decks. Are you (scale modeler) making all these items? By this I am wondering are the cabins hollow or a solid block? Wooden barrels on the decks again are you carving these or is there a supplier for them.
Many scale models have brass fittings again are these hand made by yourselves or are you purchasing them from somewhere.
It would be interesting to me or posibbley to others to find out how you go about making the added items.
Thanks
Jeff
Alberta
Jay Dee…does your bilge pump discharge above or below the waterline? And if it discharges below, does it have a check valve or something to keep the water from flowing back through the pump to your bilges and flooding your ship? Who makes the pump?
Me needs one bad…Thanks
Always choose the lesser of the two weevils!
if you want to talk about pumps. you should talk to model submariners. my model sub uses a model ariplane fuel pump and a 3 pole switch. for you bilge what you could do is glue a copper tube the the bottom af the hull and just use a fuel pump to start and suck the water out and spit it out ABOVE the water line. those pumps are not that strong , but it might be work
cougar
long live the cup and cris dickson
Thanks Cougar,
Now to change the subject…[:-captain]
Anyone want to see a pic of my First Mate sailing the Prince through her sea trials?
The lake I use is a state prison owned piece of property and there is virtually no one else using it. I used to fish it before it got drained down to it current size of approximately 1/2 mile X 3/4 mile. Shame there isn’t anyone else here to play with![:-cry]
Download Attachment: [ prince first voyage 005 crop.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/hoghappy/200471111810_prince first voyage 005 crop.jpg)
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Always choose the lesser of the two weevils!
Another…this is where I got my avitar.
Download Attachment: [ Prince in a storm 002crop.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/hoghappy/200471112852_Prince in a storm 002crop.jpg)
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Always choose the lesser of the two weevils!