Scale Sail

Ok, Ill race a scale Mari Cha IV… Its a schooner too! If it has to be a gaffer a Bristol pilot cutter is the way to go, I’ve sailed on a fulsize one. Theres not many better feelings than overtaking the modern plastic fantasic cruisers at the helm of a nice old 80 ton 60’ gaff cutter!

By thew way thats a very nice boat John, everone should visit this man’s hompage.

Luff 'em & leave 'em.

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by JayDee

I Propose a new sailing Class, a Class for REAL sailing boats.
This will embody designs taken from actual boats with little or no alteration allowed, other than Scale.
This Class is for Scale Sailing Boats.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Does this qualify? [:D]

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John, have you looked at the Vintage model Yacht group? Earl Boebert is a member here andpart of that group you might want to e-mail him or look them up on
I wonder how you feel about this: Almost nothing is more pathetic to me than seeing a model 12 meter or glorious J boat with a squat low aspect non scale rig-it just makes my skin crawl!
I have a solution: the reason those boats are done that way is scale effect which reduces the model’s capability to carry sail as you well know. So in order to sail these boats most people seem to think that in order to keep the underwater part of the boat pretty and scale that its ok to “clip the wings” of these awesome boats. Instead of doing that why not allow a “clip on” fin and bulb that creates enough additional Righting Moment that a scale rig can be used. Then when the boat is on the water instead of looking like a giant squished the rig the boats would look like the actual boats out on the water!! You can’t see the keel when it is sailing and when you haul out you could remove the clip on fin/ballast combo…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

I wish it was my boat, because it was done in excellent workmanship. Belongs to a sailing friend in France !

The wing mast, and depth of board and rudder are not to scale, but overall it was sized down to 1.2 meters. If you look close, he even scaled down the tram netting between the main hull and floats, and it has the “Fuji” logo on the tramp netting as well. (Hard to see with the white boat stand.) Both of us were building from the main trimaran design. I decided to stay with a performance version and wave piercing hulls - while he elected to replicate FujiFilm boat. He even added the small radar dome at the rear of the cockpit - but didn’t get into the detail of winches, etc. There has to be a trade-off somewhere for “working” boats and deck items taht can catch the sheets while sailing.

After he hit the water with it, his comments were that it was fast, but a bit on the heavy side.

i love the schooner
those where great picture wow
now that is a race boat. never beaten in 18 years
i have tried the scale stuff . i hope it works for you

John, I didn’t see that keel idea on your website but I think it is absolutely terrific that you are using it!!! What the hell good are these so-called scale boats that look so horrible when they are sailing!Way to go!!
And by the way that rig on Dicks multi is NO WAY near scale!!! Scale would be MUCH taller…
I mean, imagine how good an EC12 would look with a REAL 12 meter rig instead of that flattened down thing they use now -and the J boats-- Well, you know!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

I’ve studied model J boats a bit :slight_smile: What John Black did in 1935 to make a 36"LOA version of “Yankee” is instructive: He reduced the sailplan to 90 % of scale, and then to fool the eye he further reduced the plan *by shortening the boom only? This increased the aspect ratio and fools the eye into thinking the plan is taller than it really is. (He also increased the draft, but after all, he is reducing this boat to 1/42 of full size.)

Another thing to make it look more “like a J” is to adopt a double headed rig. Based on a trick from 1895, you can do this without complex sheeting arrangements. Details in our next newsletter, at the printers now :slight_smile:



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Gorgeus boat ,Earl!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing


that is absolutely beautiful. incredible boat. thanks for the screensaver.


John, thats terrific! Allows the boat to be scale ON the water which is so cool! And then take the fin/bulb off and your scale out of the water.
Thats the way it should be done. Great job!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

And by the way <font color=“red”>that rig </font id=“red”>on Dicks multi <font color=“red”>is NO WAY near scale!!! Scale would be MUCH taller… </font id=“red”>Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Doug - looks like I have to call <font size=“2”>“BULLSHIT”</font id=“size2”> on another of your quotes !

Before you post such a comment, you really ought to do a bit of research. Let’s see, to use some of your own past quotes…

“You are 100% wrong” “You don’t know what you are saying” “You don’t understand” “You don’t know what you are talking about” “You couldn’t be more wrong” and there are a few more …

Here are some facts…

  1. A normal Mini40 main sail luff is on <u>average</u> 2000 mm in length which is approximately 6.5 feet

  2. A normal Mini40 is 1.2 meters in length which is about 4 feet

  3. An average mast length on the Open 60 Multihulls is about 28+ meters which is about 90 feet on average

  4. The average length of an Open 60 Multihull is 18.28 meters or 59.9 (60 feet)

So using high school math for calculating ratios, one would set up the formula such:
(60 ft. long/90 ft. high) * (4 ft. long/“X” ft. high) to find out how long the mast should be to remain “in scale”.

which calculates as:
60 “X” = 90 * 4 = 360
and “X” = 360/60
or “X” = 6 ft.

If you refer back to Fact #1 (above) you will notice that (in fact) the mast height of the Mini40 is very much in scale with the real mast height on an Open 60 Multihull. It certainly <u>DOES NOT </u>need to be “MUCH TALLER” for scale ! If you really need to make comments, perhaps trying to be factual would help us all to believe you. Don’t let JayDee’s quote <font color=“green”>“Doug and all of us can easily spot radically altered Rigs etc, that don’t even look like the original boat.”</font id=“green”> go to your head.

Dick, I apologize to the extent I’m wrong but the picture of the model coming at the camera that you posted DOES NOT LOOK SCALE.
Gitanas mast clearance above the water is 100 feet and I’m still looking for pictures to illustrate my point.
The rig on that boat does not look 6’(1.5 times the length of the hull) tall–sorry if I’m wrong but the impression from the picture(to me) is of a shorter rig.
UPDATE: These pictures seem to me to show a much higher aspect ratio rig than shown in the picture in your post of the boat coming at the camera"

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Gitanas parameters
Mast 93.5 feet
Loa 60 feet


A normal mini40
Main sail luff 6.5 feet
Loa 4 feet


So in reality a mini 40 is very scale.


Dan, the question is not whether a mini 40 rig is scale; the question is is the rig in the picture a scale rig? If you look at the pictures I posted of full size ORMA boats I think you’ll see a difference between the picture of the little boat and full size.
By no means was I knocking the extraordinary work the guy did with the model! There would be good reasons on a multihull to have less than a scale rig-but maybe I’m not looking at it right-whatever. I again apologize if I am wrong; the pictures seem to be to be quite different but there could be other reasons for that…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

For those who have an interest in building to scale of an Open 60 Class boat, here is a link to the web where you can find their “basic” dimensions and information.

This is for the 60 monohulls as well as the multihulls. Just click on the “details” link in the center of the list and a separate window will open with info on the team and boat.

Anybody done a Larchmont “O” boat?

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

I for one would welcome a scale class. How about length being the only vague limit, and we don’t really race formally but just hang out and sail around and look at all the pretty boats. If there was a scale class, it might bring more attention to the VAST amount of designs that are out there. It could be sortof like the scale model airplane groups. (Whatever they’re called)Boats could be judged by scale craftsmanship too.

Son-of-a-gun !

I made that same proposal well over a year ago on the WindPower site, and it (the idea) was stomped on by Doug Lord.

I had suggested (like aircraft) a “Stand-off” scale, where from a specifed distance that boat would look like a real boat. Sort of like that beauty that Earl posted. Not only “could” one race on the water, but then a group of judges would also score points for “authentic” looking boats (in the water) so that longer fins could be added for in-water performance. 50% on-water sailing performance, and 50% static, in-water visual points.

I agree with you John, that the “art” of building boats such as Earl’s beauty, is fading fast. Not many people willing to put time into building. Interesting that the Mini40 and our fledgling F-48 Class include options to have the boats “decorated” to look like “real” (big) boats. A look at some of the photos I posted of Open 60 boats leads one to believe a “scale” (or scale looking) class might have a few followers. Not as many as the IOM or other classes, but a niche for those who enjoy “modeling”!

I’ve seen Earl’s boat(actually, last year’s prototype) and can attest to the fact that it’s as nice when you’re up close and personal as it is in the water. The coolest thing was the video being shown at Mystic 2002. I NEED that sailing site. There wasn’t a ripple on the water and here’s this gorgeous 36" J boat literally ripping around the pond.

I’m building a 48" Canterbury J - with roughly 36" of waterline and about 900-ish square inches of sail, it should zoom - foils or no foils. Actually, the club is building 4 of 'em. Since we’re neighborly with Mystic, and if the boats are done (mine have just been started) I’ll organize a field trip with 'em.

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. Kenneth Graeme, Wind in the Willows.

First, the USVMG Traditional Watercraft folks do scale models, judged on a combination of racing results and craftsmanship. See

Second,the double-headed rig is simplified by stiff battens than run from the tack of each foresail at right angles to the luff/stay. For a small (36" LOA) boat 1/4" x .030 works fine.

This allows the sheets to run any which way. Sort of like a wishbone rig with the wishbone inside the sail. Simple, and it works.

This BBS won’t let me upload a PDF file with the drawing,
so somebody is going have to tell me how to get it to the young man.