do you have to have money to go fast?

Is r/c sailing for the elite(megabucks skipper)? You betcha last dollar it is. If you want to compete at top level it seems. If you just want to enjoy yourself sailing on the local pond with a few good mates and have a quite beer or two or three afterwards,then you don’t.Anyway by the time can number 4[:-drunk] has gone down the hatch [xx(]your home-made whatever has begun to take on all the class and ability of the latest state of the art space age material Ben Lexen design thingamy,[:-goldfish] and has become unbeatable.

Seriously though,if r/c sailing is to be open to the masses then something needs to be done to control entry level costs. As an example,I have only joined the sport recently here in Australia,having seen some guys sailing on a lake near where my daughters wedding took place.
There is no way I can afford or even justify spending the money being asked for boats over here.

Example:-"Nearly 2 yr old RM Vibe.Full Walicki fitout (butterfly,fin,removable rudder,outhaul and slot-on-the-go adjuster etc.A,B and C rigs on walicki masts.RMG winch and servos. $3500 aud.
An interesting comment by seller "a very fast boat limited only by present owner.

I searched the internet/e-bay/club for sale ads for 6 months before finding a deal that was anywhere near what I could realistically afford at the time. I got two 10R hulls,1 complete with 2 sets of home-made sails on home-made rigs,the other a bare hull.

So,will I pose a threat to the 10R ranks?[:-pirate], do I want to? Do those guys have a few beers at the end of the day,from what I’ve seen so far I don’t think so.
But I tell you what, I bet I get a lot more satisfaction and enjoyment out of mucking around in my shed stripping my boat down, repainting it, replacing parts, having a go at making my own sails (even out of Tyvek overalls)
etc etc.And at the end of the day if I decide that r/c sailing is not the sport for me, I can tell my wife and kids that I’ve only wasted $400 of their money, not $3500.
What I stand to gain from my small investment however is beyond cost,many enjoyable hours of relaxation,meeting new people and making new friends,learning new skills and maybe even making the odd contribution to someone else’s enjoyment.
I like the idea of class type racing where you all turn up at the pond, draw a boat number from a hat,and sail what ever boat you come up with for that race.Occasionally you might get to race your own SOTAT or heaven forbid you might get my PIUBDOT[:-turtle][:-weepn].Then we might get an idea of who is the better skipper.
In the meantime while we’re waiting for that sort of contest to happen, I’d like to suggest that maybe a new design class be established for the select few…call it the EGO class.[:-cyclops]

Ross.

SOTAT = State of the art thingamy[:-bigeyes]
PIUBDT = past its used by date old tub.[:D]

I’ve learned, That the easiest way for me to grow as a person is to surround myself with people smarter than I am.
(what am I doing here?)lol

So we all agree that it costs too much to get started. What do you guys reckon would be an acceptable cost for an entry level boat? And what should that boat be like? I think a good size entry level boat should be at least a 1 metre hull (no offence to anyone!) and a simple 2 channel radio. An aluminium mast and 1 set of tough dacron sails. How much to go sailing?
Troy

19 out of 7 people have trouble with statistics

Troy -
as with all response, you probably want to buy what others in your area are racing.

If not … here are my ideas… at 1 Meter minimum size:

  1. Laser.
    Slightly larger than 1 Meter, this “Boat In A Bag” concept has proven acceptable and good class racing as a One Design. About $700 with all whistles and Bells (bag, stand, 3 rigs, radio, and stand) Not much else allowed. I heard (not sure) you can’t paint your hull, and sails have to be white. Hull designs that I’ve seen were decals. Owners can verify)

  2. 1 Meter Soling
    Victor Products boat - comes in a kit, must assemble. Limited options for change. A One-Design class. Biggest class in the U.S. but localized fleets. Guessing about $350 -$400 for on the water sailing.

  3. Epoch IOM
    Climate Boat Works. Not sure how competitive with all-out, mega bucks IOM boats, but price is right at about $470. Beware - if you want to race IOM at National Levels - check to see how these do in competition against their thoroughbred brothers. I’m not familiar with the boat’s performance.

  4. ODOM at around $600 - can be purchased as a kit - or complete and ready to sail. As a kit - about $600 for on the water ready to go - but you provide labor to assemble, costs more pre-built. A fairly strict one-design, hull is based on the Mistral One Meter design.

  5. Seawind
    A plastic kit 1 Meter. Good light to medium air performance. Not too bad to build (assemble) and a recently recognized AMYA Class. About $450 to sail.

  6. Victor Products 1 Meter Cup Series.
    A kit to assemble. Takes some time. About $175 for the kit less radio gear. Maybe $350 to the water. Class is just trying to get started. NOT AMYA recognized.

  7. IOM Class - purchase a prebuilt used boat … $400 on up depending on age and what comes with it as a package. As noted - a very competitive Class - not much in the middle of the US but strong on both coasts and Texas.

  8. US1Meter Class…
    The only reason this doesn’t move further up the list, is the issue that it is a development class. Need to concentrate on ultralight displacement. Great competition, and somewhat spotty class locations. If you go this way - look for a good used boat. Price ??? unknown. Wonderful class if you like to tinker or try new ideas (with some limits.)

I would jump into this class in a moment, but nothing local up here in my area.

Probably will get some heat and flames, but these are “MY” choices if I was looking. Actually, I probably would jump directly to the US 1 Meter class just so I can “play” with ideas.

To me- speed is always relative anyway. Any given object can travel faster. If you make a boat out of nothing but wood, sail cloth, string, paint, screw eyes, and servos, it will sail well enough to be exciting(IF its designed right) if it isn’t compared to a IOM, and it’ll cost a tiney fraction. Mony corrupts everything, just like politics

dear mr Peter Birch where an you get “30gram Carbon for $30 per square metre” and what type of weive? please tell me because i want to buy the shop out of carbon
was quoted $75.00 per meter for 195 gram 0-90 woven 1.25wide that is expensive and can get it cheeper than that but not any where near $30

When the Apprentice knows more than the Mentor its time to quit!

ah money money money

a good initiative in france :
Philippe Hemery decided to promote IOM and make a hull and deck for low cost for beginner !!! (triple crown)
price is about 50? (60 dollards)
http://navi.modelisme.com/article223.html
http://navi.modelisme.com/auteur10.html

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>By Dick Lemke
5) Seawind
A plastic kit 1 Meter. Good light to medium air performance. Not too bad to build (assemble) and a recently recognized AMYA Class. About $450 to sail.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

As a member of the SeaWind class I would like to add to Dick’s comments. $450.00 to sail and competitive right out of the box. The current rules keep allowable modifications to a minimum. Skipper skill is what rules the class. Another item to note is that this class is growing nationally as well as internationally.

When you chose a class to participate in you are also choosing the level of dollars it takes to be competitive wether you know it at the time or not.

How much would an IOM cost if the hull was a one design manufactured by multiple companies?
Most of the inflated costs are associated with the design and building costs of the hull. On the other side it does make the class a little more interesting as long as you have the money to keep up.

Tom
Seawind #80

what i was trying to say was. do you have to spend $2000 on a hull? in order to win. i know there are classes where you can buy a boat. out of the box. and compete. that is not the problem. we have a soling. seawind, and victoria, classes. but with the IOM and us 1 meter, do you have to sepnd all of that money . just to compete. or even have a level playing field? what about agreeing with some people here. you have to pay for someone to sand your hull. what about selling the plans. so that i could sand my own hull. . the bottom line is still. i dont want to pay $2000 for a ts2. when the total of the materails. may be $500. for this very reason. i will not buy a ts2. so i dont win. i can live with that. but i love sailing. more than almost anything in my life. but i also know that money does not win races. money gets you on the feild. it is the person driving the boat. that wins.
is epoch as fast as a ts2. probably not. i know I am not as fast as peter van rossen. but i am as fast as brad dolomount. and i am on par with most IOMs out there
cougar
long live the cup

Cougar -

I think you will have to come to the conclusion that if you don’t want to spend $2,000 you won’t own a TS2 - until you can find one used. And that may run you about $1,000 - $1,500.

There are good boats that become available, that are probably “AS GOOD” as the TS2 - but at better pricing. Really - write Rob Davis the US Class Secretary and ask him for info, pointers, and what to watch for. I think Tony Gonslaves recently won a Nationals with an older boat - or maybe it was Steve Landeau. In any case there is a way into the IOM Class and custom boats, but it probably will be higher in cost than the Epoch. Such is life !

I guess it somehow goes against what people like to think, but as a general matter better technology, better design, better equipment (i.e. more money) wins races.

This doesn’t mean that Tiger Woods won’t win with just about any club you give him, it means that if you are not Tiger Woods having the right equipment helps you perform better. As my old rifle coach once told me, “Its hard to hit the target if you have a cheap gun with bad sights”.

Cougar, with all due respect, before you start comparing the performance of your IOM to other boats you need to take it out and race with a broad group of designs.

Dick: Tony G. won the US Nationals last year with a Cockatoo, a very recent design. A few years back he placed well in a Florida regional IOM with a Little Wing, an older design.

As to IOM costs, used boats can be found in the $500-$1000 ballpark. And before anyone starts talking about how expensive this is, please think back to the era before mass produced kit boats (less than 10 years ago), typical entry costs in those days for a M, 36/600, EC-12, 10R were all in excess of $1000. And as I’ve said before, compared to big boats, r/c yacht racing is a bargain.

A trick copied from a french site:
“If you want it, I give you a trick to have some 2 m length rods for expensive step. Go in a store of do-it-yourself, buy a package of skirting in pine, higher quality, without nodes of course (20 euros or 130FF.). In this boot you will find 12 2 m length blades by 7 cm broad and 10 mm in height. In each blade, output with the circular saw or better with the machine tool, of the slats of 2,3,4 mm etc, following l epaissor who you wish. In 3 mm, in a blade, you 2 m length will draw approximately 10 slats (a kerf eats you approximately 3 mm) x10mm broad and 3 mm d epaissor X by 12 blades either 120 slats, or 15 centimes d’ ? or 1FF the slat.”

Hey frenchs knows very well how to work on wood!! [:-chef]

Aaaallways look on theee briiiight siiiide of liifeeeee

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Roy Langbord

Dick: Tony G. won the US Nationals last year with a Cockatoo, a very recent design. A few years back he placed well in a Florida regional IOM with a Little Wing, an older design.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Thanks Roy - After I wrote Tony’s name, I had second thoughts that perhaps it was Steve who had the older boat. I remember reading about the win on the other forum. I have corresponded with Tony and he calls it dumb luck, but after seeing his name appear in IOM results, methinks, he is a better than average sailor as well. Lucky ? yea, maybe once or twice - but being consistent starts to remove doubt about luck.

Thanks for the clarification - point made – some used/older boats are still competitive, especially for local racing. If you have no plans to race Nationals or try the Worlds, why spend the money for the newest leading edge boat? A good sailor, with a 3 year old boat will probably do very well at “Podunk Pond”.

Cougar, if you are happy with the Epoch, and sail mainly at your local pond, then why worry about costs and need to upgrade? Like the song says …“if you’re happy and you know it clap your hands!” If you are beating your local competition now by 4-5 boat lengths, spending a lot of money for a new leading edge IOM will result in your beating them by 8-10 boat lengths. You don’t need to spend that much unless you start traveling to other clubs and other races.

JMHO of course

Speaking of inexpensive boats - or the need to spend vast sums, I recently received an email from Greg Vasileff (who no longer posts on this forum due to the B.S. that some feel necessary to post repeatedly). Since it details his involved costs, along with a set of sails provided by a friend, I thought it appropriate to be posted here. I do have Greg’s authorization to do so.

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Hey Dick,

Just thought I’d share these photo’s. They are of my Triple crown IOM that I built.
http://members.tripod.com/ghmyc_1m/3crown.html

Being that I built this hull for about $35 including the keel/mast trunk, it might show that you can do it for not so much money. All in all, ready to sail this boat cost about $350 - $400 to get it on the water, not including radio. Sails were used gift, which you can find easily.
The boat is very competitive.

Now it’s time to get the new boat going.!

Hope all is well!
Greg <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

rest my case
greg v did a great job. and he did not have to break the bank
thank you
'cougar
long live the cup

Hi All

Lester Gilbert posted the top results of the UK IOM Nationals from the past weekend, on the IOM ICA forum.

1 Graham Bantock,Italico. Past world champion.
2 Martin Roberts, Gadget. Past world Champion.
3 Trevor Binks, ISIS. Current World Champion
4
5
6 Micheal Scharmer, Germany. Own design,(Wooden Mast, wooden booms, and home made sails made from florists wrapping film!!)

Who said that an IOM must now be megabuck to get decent results

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
now the last post is intresting? kite posted the top 3 boats. are being driven by 3 realy good skippers. but i also think that italico. it runs for about $2000 cdn. i could be wrong about the price. but i like the 6 th place finish. this is what i am wondering? what happend to the rest of the boats. or was micheal scharmer? the best there, and could only go as fast as his boat would allow
cougar
long live the cup

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by cougar

what happend to the rest of the boats. or was micheal scharmer? the best there, and could only go as fast as his boat would allow<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Hi Cougar

I was the Race Officer for the event. In my opinion, at this level of competition in the IOM class, skipper skill and boat performance are both required for ultimate success. Would Bantock have won if he’d sailed Scharmer’s boat? Probably, but not certainly. Would Scharmer have been able to improve on 6th place sailing an Italiko? Probably, but not certainly… And so it goes.

The excellent news is that a home-built boat can be completely competitive in the IOM class at world level. The estimated materials cost of Scharmer’s boat (excluding radio gear) is in the region of 200 USD. The estimated time cost (fittings, spars, sails, hull, the design itself, all home-made) is in the region of 7500 USD if you value Michael’s time at, say, 50 USD per hour.

Lester Gilbert
http://www.iomclass.org/
http://www.onemetre.net/

lester
thank you. what i think you are saying is that, at your local club. a ts 2 will run away from anything on the water. but at a national event? where the skipper are all good. the skipper and design all come into play. but you can compete. with out selling the house, i would like to see the boat
cougar
long live the cup

Hi Cougar,

Lester has a couple of pictures of Mikes boat at the 2002 Europeans. He may have built a couple more since then!. Find it at www.onemetre.net/Reports/Euro2002/Euro2002b.htm
AS for a TS2-----I’ve yet to see one running away!

Cheers

Ralph

Hi again Cougar

Lester has again kindly run a report of the UK’s largest IOM event so far this year. He has highlighted Mike Scharmers latest creation, The Scharming Mk X and has included a few pictures.

www.onemetre.net/Reports/Nats2004/Nats04.htm

Note the large entry, 68 entries.

Cheers

Ralph