i have no problem with somebody spending $2000 grand on a hull. but whati am saying is prove to me that there is $2000 worth of material? . I know there are going to be people that say. I have to pay for somebody to sand a hull. . that is fine, but when do you get to the piont where al the testing is paid for , all the sanding is paid for. i have a friend , who does sub hulls. he charges cost of material +200%. so you can get an LA attack sub hull for $400 cdn. but for his friends, it is $100. basicaly the cost of materails, and a case of beer. when you pick up the hull. you bring lunch. So why can cant this attidude be among the sailing community? climate boatworks. has sold me a realy good IOM. with some mods. I can race in the IOM class. I have the cf mast. i will not go and geta ts2. for the simple reason, the boat is not worth$2000. i can see paying $1200 for a v3. and that is alot in my budget, maybe somebody should take a good close look at the ts2 design and tell me why it is so fast? i think bantcok is a good designer. and could probably come up withha design that could track downa ts2,
I think the future of the IOM is in boats like epoch. and celebration
cougar
long live the cup
Troy -
probably prior to your joining the forum, I offered a suggestion for a “Claiming Class”, where a specific dollar amount was set. I explained the details, which I won’t repeat in total again, but with exception of radio gear (winch, receiver, servo and transmitter) any boat in the class could be claimed by any member at the end of the season for a specific agreed upon dollar amount. A certain number of races had to be completed for the member to “bid” for a specific boat, but as example, if a limit of $600 was established. At the end of the season, the owner could remove his radio gear, but he HAD to sell the boat for $600, to any member meeting certain participation requirements willing and wanting to purchase it.
Now think about this, you show up and are eligible to bid/buy a competitor’s boat. Maximum you can pay the owner is $600 - so the question … how many owners would be willing to spend more than that to win races, if at the end of the season they had to give up their boat for $600 ? Not too many is my guess!
This would/could happen all up and down the line within the class. Follows some auto classes where engines can be purchased by competitors immediately after a race. Kind of keeps things on the level and prevents someone from showing up with an “over-built” engine that beats everyone.
What was funny, is that those with expensive boats didn’t like the proposed idea. Those with homemade boats (or less costly purchased boats) loved the idea. Even more fun was the comments from a certain builder who advertises expensive multihulls, foilers, etc. No way he wanted to participate.
But in the end - by putting a cap on how much you can spend - you could care less how much money I have in my boat. If it is a consistent winner, you are going to be able to purchase it for a specific said amount. If I am dumb enough to spend $1000 on the boat, I could see (and expect) a net loss of $400 - and being the person I am, I will try to make my boat the fastest possible at the least cost. There is at least an incentive to keep costs contained.
Each year the entire membership submits a slip of paper with a dollar amount written on it. The dollar amount written the most times (or you can use an average of a total of ALL slips) is the next season’s purchase cost for competing boats. Nothing prevents a guy from showing up with a $2,000 boat for a race or two, but if he hits the agreed upon magic number of entries - his boat is subject to purchase right along with mine.
Without some kind of an artifical cost cap, prices and boat values will keep increasing as each person attempts to “purcahse” his way to the top of the winners list.
Just thought it appropriate to offer this alternative for anyone who is really serious about caping r/c sail boat costs. I think over a period of a few years, costs would come down to the point they actually reflected the value for a specific boat or design. Imagine the other direction ----- you build a boat for $300, and win all sorts of races. At the end of the year, if someone wants to buy their way to the top, they pay you $600 and you give them the boat (less sails) and pocket the $300 profit!
Could work both ways. And, if your design really sucks, regardless of the dollars invested, no one will want to purchase it. For the IOM Class, I can see everyone buying the $400 Climate EPOCH, and then at season end, bidding to purchase the TS2 that may have won the class. Eventually, the lwo cost non-performers, along with the ultra-high cost winners would wind up meeting somewhere in the middle, giving everyone an equal opportunity to sail a boat that was competitive - both from a performance as well as cost standpoint.
Nothing prevents a “Claiming IOM Class”, multihull class, or whatever. Once all members agree by majority vote, you try to build the most competitive boat without exceeding that cost.
Make no mistake about it, you either spend your money or you spend your time if you want to go fast.
And sometimes, no matter how much time you spend you don’t have the skill or knowledge or technique to do it better than the pros.
Finally, as others have pointed out, compared to big boat sailing, r/c yacht racing, at any level, is a bargain.
costings ts2 or any 1m
COMPLETE BOAT
Complete boat ready to sail includes: Guyatt 280D winch, 6v Ni Cad Battery pack, No.1 rig and your choice of two colours. (excluding radio gear and postal charges)
$2880.00 aus
hull and deck
prep molds cut glass and mix resin 30 min
lay up, vacume and post cure 60 min
monitor 15 min
remove from mould 15 min
total time 120 min
survay trays, boulk heads and keel box
prep molds 10 min
lay up 20 min
vac 10 min
monitor/ post cure 10 min
remove 10 min
total 60 min sub toatl 3 hours
lay up keel/ rudder
cut fibers 10 min
lay up 20 min
compression mold post cure and monitor and relise 10 min
total 30 min sub toat 3.1/2
painting
paint all parts in undercoat 60 min
sand and fill 45 min
spray top coat 60 min
wax 15 min
toatl 180 min sub total 6.1/5
pour led and finish boulb 60min
A Silicon Rubber bow bumper 15min
fit trays and bits to boat join deck/hull
min with jig would have to be about 4 hours
sub total 10.5
drill and cut holes 2 hours
fix fittings 4 hours
make rig 6 hours
cut and make sails 2 hours
fit rig to boat 2 hours
say 26.5 i would say it would be more like 35 but say 30 for arguments sake
materials
hull/deck say $150
keel and rudder say $200
fittings on hull say $150
mast/ booms $300
sails $200
paint $50
winch $250
total cost $1050
30 hours at say $55.00 and hour= $1650
thoes who want t complane about the 55 an hour think about how much you get paid? these guys do it for a living. and idd dare say that alot of you wouldnt get out of bed for more than $60 an hour at the least
total is about $2700 but that does not include new molds every 100 boats or mold failuers/ cracking down time dew to parts / materials but most of all you are paying for the design and development of the yacht and the proven race record and build quality
any body can build a boat but if you pay peenuts you get monkys(sorry sodium)
When the Apprentice knows more than the Mentor its time to quit!
hmmm…sounds like a TS2, a design which has been around for a long time, the benchmark of current IOMs,a race proven design worldwide. at least from race results that i’ve seen
ed
i guess some people see it as a hobby soem people see it as a bisness and a way of life. many diffrent angles many diffrant oppinions all i know is i know how much work goes in to one and i know how much i earn an hour and its cheeper for me to pay my self to lose the time than it is for me to pay soem guy to build it for me which would take half the time or maby even a 3rd but it would still be cheeper
When the Apprentice knows more than the Mentor its time to quit!
maybe it boils down to the different skipper types, some are craftsmen sailors with enough time to build one,some are sailor sailors with intermediate modeling skills,prefers to build kits and others are well funded syndicates
other are willing to receive any kind of sponsors [;)]
Wis
if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!
michael
i agree with the time timeline. i have a mold and do molding of a IOM design of my own. but i disagree agree with the cost of materials. for a gallon on mgs resin. I pay $150 cdn. and with that much resign i can get 9 - 10 hulls. the stuff is great. so the hull might me worth $50 with all things, (pva. mold realese wax, mat, and resign) the lead for the bulb. and the fin. we will go into how much it cost me( fair) $10 cdn for metal. and $5 for the lead. i agree with the cost of the mast and booms. but the paint. if you went with a base colour( e white, black , orange,or grey) that does not cost a thing. as it is pigmanet that goes into the resign. the fittings?. i dont know ,what is involoved it all of the fittings but i some how wordered what is icluded in the fittings to come to a price of $200.
the basis is . i dont charge $50 hour for my labor, if this is a boat to have fun and play i will charge a reasonable rate, maybe $20
cougar
cougar those are aussie dolars and my be a little bit over proced but its pritty close carbon is still quiet expensive over hear and the aussie dolar is a lot less than the us dollar
also these people are doing it for a bissness so 50 aussie dolars is quiet cheep
i bet you earn more than $50.00 aussie an hour???
as for the fittings
blocks about $15 aussie each mast base bolts and the list goes on and on
When the Apprentice knows more than the Mentor its time to quit!
I build boats in Australia and I can tell you for a fact that I buy 30gram Carbon for $30 per square metre. Vinylester resin is far more efficient to use than epoxy. Epoxy is used to glue the hull etc. together.
IOM fittings are ridiculously expensive, besides the winch and sails that is, about the biggest expense.
So lets work things out for reality.
Carbon for hull, deck, trays and bulkheads:- 1.5 metres=$45
Resin:- 2 litres=$20
Epoxy:- .5 litre=$10
Rudder and keel:-= $60
Spars(mast,booms):- A rig =$199
Sails:- A rig =$180
Paint:- $25
Winch:- $250
Fittings:- $120
Total costs Materials:-$909
Labour at a realistic rate $30 per hour@ 30 hours=$900
Total for complete boat with A rig= $1809AUD
ADD $370 for additional rigs.
$1809AUD more realistic but still out of the price range of most.
Peter
ok
i will take peter. ( who i knwo is a good guy. and will not lead people with inflated numbers?
i dont know why the carbon is used? i dont. but we will live it there
the resin and epoxy is right on line(price) but I dont even come close to 1 litre. for a mold and hull yes
the rudder and keel i can see being $60 because peter did included the bulb
but the spars?(180_ that is the top end. my mast on cutlass is a pine dowel and booms are also made of wood. this comes to a total of$20
sails are spot on as well as paint ( THIS IS if you want a realy good paint job)
the winch. is the top end. I use a hitec and it only cost me $85 cdn
the fittings are hand made and cost me $40 total
so you do the math
what peter did not include was the radio
i will include that. a good 2 channel is worth $100 usd
cutlass. my own desin IOM total is $600. i did the math. epoch was inthat same ball park. and i bet when and if I come up with a design. someday i wil track down a ts2 or isis. and beat it
and i will still come in under $1000
cougar
long live the cup
Dick - I like the idea in priciple. But my heart tells me Id have trouble selling any boat I did well with… regardless of profit.
Also I’m not totally convinced that money alone can buy a victory. “Stick time”, as Peter calls it (nice!) is pretty important. For example, one hull made from e-glass vinylester, & balsa will be a little heavier than a pre-preg vac bagged carbon masterpiece. So the carbon boat has a little more lead in the bulb and is a little more stable. What would that be worth in time… maybe 1 or 2 percent? I dunno. Whether a rig has top of the line fittings or home made ones shouldnt make too much difference when the boats are sailing. The expensive ones might look better, and be less fiddly to set up but if they can hold the mast in the same place and keep the sail shape intact does it make a difference?
I sail EC12s and the difference between a well setup and sailed boat and one which isnt is quite suprising. I think good setup can return a lot more than the 1 or 2 or even 5 percent you can get by building more expensively.
I really think there should be a “spend as much as you want” class, hey its a free world, but I would question the friendliness of a win at any cost race series.
For me its all about the fun.
Just my two cents…
Troy
19 out of 7 people have trouble with statistics
Some of the prices I mentioned were from the catalogue available here. Personally sails can be made a lot cheaper than that. I buy 1.5oz Mylar for $25 per metre(roll width is 1360mm), which I use to build sails. I’m not begrudging builders making money out of there “hobby”, but seriously when a company can produce ready to sail boats for less than half what the builders are asking it makes you wonder.
I also think that it is strange that none of the private IOM builders, that charge these prices, have attempted to defend themselves on here. I know that some do use this forum.
Troy -
I agree with you regarding seeling a wining boat, but the original concept/question was if money was needed to win. In my scenario, I am suggesting that a cap of whatever dollar amount is agreed upon is in place. Trying to get people to provide sales receipts won;t work, so you make it possible that if you have a winning boat, YOU as builder know going into the class that regardless of what you spend, someone meeting regatta attendance, etc. (whatever is chosen) can “claim” you boat for the agreed upon maximum cost.
It still leave the door open for the owner to decide “where” to spend his money… in the sails, in the hull construction, in the keel, in the rudder, in the rig? Since electronics are not included, he/you can opt for a Guyatt winch, knowing it is removeable when the boat is sold. Thus any electroncis, being exempted are open to whatever. You can spend the $300-$400 on one of Doug’s recommended computer transmitters, or you can stay with a simple 2 channel AM. Doesn’t matter.
However, you MUST start with the agreed upon cost limits, and work backwards from there. Now in my original post I just “grabbed” the $600 figure. Just for ****s and giggles, let’s say the class has a limit of $500 instead of $600 and it’s a 1 Meter class… suddenly the TS-2, and all the latest IOM hot boats aren’t considered, (unles used) and people start eyeing up the Climate Boat works boats. They are inexpensive, and if you buy one and you keep winning, and some club members “claims” the boat, you remove electronics (if you want to) and hand him the boat. He gives you $500 and you just made maybe $30.00 profit. Back to Climate and purchase another for $469.00 - and back to the pond. Probably after three people have “claimed” your winning boats, they and the rest will realize, it isn’t necessarily the boat - it’s the skipper. On the other hand, you might see a long line of new skippers joining, knowing that the most money they need to spend is $500 - thus, like many one-design classes, the resale remains very high for used boats as well. Another plus for members wanting to retire from r/c sailing.
Again, nothing prevents me from spending $800 and trying to “buy my way” into the winner’s circle, but “I” need to decide if I am willing to give up my extra $300 to someone who can buy my boat for $500 at season’s end! That is where the ability to control class costs kicks in.
The “concept” that someone can claim your boat for an agreed upon price at the end of the season has significant impact on what you will spend. In fact, if you can win by spending a lot less (say $300) - if you win and someone wants your boat, they still pay you $500 !
I guess I would throw out a rehtorical question: “If you knew you might have to sell your boat at season end for an agreed upon amount ($300 - $500 - $800 - $1,000- ???whatever) would anyone spend “MORE” than that amount to build/buy/race a boat - and would it not be a major incentive to keep costs in line to prevent run-away spending?”
I think it would. The only question then to guys like Cougar (as example) - is if they would be willing to spend the initial, class agreed upon, dollar limit?
ok people
this is where i am going to get very angry emails. and pm and post.
IF everybody is right. all the ts2 that are out there. can now be trown into the garbage. they are way to slow. . jeezze spending $2800 for a peice of junk. I seem to remeber that the isis . is now the boat to get. IT WAS THE FASTEST this year. so I wonder how much that boat is worth. well if a piece of junk like a ts2 is $2800. then the isis has to be atleast $3000. if we follow everybody thinking?
and i dont belive that for a second. I am waitning for somebody to win with triple crown. and then we will all say. the skipper got lucky, or it was the weater.
toss it around. but i for one will not spend anymore then is nessacary. i like epoch. or bee gee. MY hull.
cougar
long live the cup
Hi,
I think the Price Cap is a real good idea,but, just how much of an advantage are some of the things you could spend extra money on.
On a yacht a Goose-neck can be made from a few split pins and some wire, bend it all to shape and it works,OR you could buy from Mr Bantock a ballraced, Chrome Plated, all singing and dancing one, that does the exact same job for xxx???$$$, what is the point?.
What is the advantage of a Carbon Rudder?, it does not bend and its black, so what?, a Plywood one can be painted Black and costs about 1/50th of the other, its only a Rudder!!.
WE have just been shown how to make Turn-buckles that work, have a look how much the Shop ones cost, wiil THEY make your Boat go faster?, I think not.
In my reckoning the fastest thing on ANY Boat is without doubt, THE SKIPPER.
In other posts I have wrote about Skippers who are just about unbeatable, even when swopping boats with them, Cougar has also seen this happen, really p**ses you off seeing YOUR BOAT sailing away from YOU!!!.
When it happens, it is not easily forgotten!!.
I have been racing One Metres for about 10 years, good fun, good racing, but some fast boats are NOT the latest models, neither are the Skippers at the Helms!!.
So, if someone spends a load of cash on his boat, he is not always buying success - - he is spending his money!.
John.
Perhaps I better get busy with my newest high-tech project?
[:-bulb][:-bulb]I am going to make underwear out of used Dacron, Mylar and Cuben fiber from old sails.
Now this won’t be just ordinary old sails - nosiree ! These will be made from retired sails that were used when setting Worlds Speed Records, Winning World Championship Regattas, Wining Gold at Olympic events, etc.
They will be designed to be worn under regular street pants or swimwear, and may give you a distinct performance edge. You “could” wear these outside your pants to impress friends, competitors and improve your ego. The costs for these performance enhancing underwear will begin at $150 per pair, and are dependant on the class of boat they came from, the type of material, and of course the final standing in which prestigious event. [:D] Ummmm - final “size” may require a slightly higher cost for anyone with an - ahem - large bottomed hull - shall we say?
So to anyone really serious about winning in whatever class you are racing, you may want to increase your chances at winning - AND your budget by at least $300 - so now if you race in an IOM Class, a new boat and racing “pants” will set you back about $2300 instead of $2,000.
Multihull guys sailing an F-48/MultiONE without foils or moving ballast in strong winds may require two or three sets, depending on wind conditions and the frequency of needed pants replacement! There is a special discount program for more than three sets at time of initial order. We also have options to include your class insignia and sail numbers if you so wish.
Be sure to consider these potential performance enhancing pants before your next major regattta.
I have looked a virtually every sailing class out there - big, multihulls, racing dinghies, skiff and all of the r/c classes - both recognized and not recognized and I can guarantee that these racing underwear are class legal in EVERY class. Hurry and place your orders today. If demand exceeds supply, we will be able to rush you your order for $200 add-on for quick response laser cutting by Climate Boatworks !
<center>ORDER NOW ! DON’T DELAY ! SPECIAL PRICES FOR CLUB ORDERS OF 20 OR MORE !</center>
<font face=“Trebuchet MS”><font size=“1”><center>Be sure yoou have purchased every possible go-fast for your class of boat so you are one step ahead of your nearest competitor !</center></font id=“size1”></font id=“Trebuchet MS”>
Dick,
ME, ME, ME, I want some, will I ALWAYS WIN?,
oh wonderfull, just what I have been looking for all these years.
I will send one of my best India Rubber Cheques to you ASAP, guaranteed to Bounce!.
Thank you SO very much.
John.
Too bad Dick, this company already does it; http://www.quba.com/index.cfm They will turn your used genny into anything you want… Give them enough sets of model sails and I dare say they’ll make somthing from them!
Luff 'em & leave 'em.