hi guys
i was just on another forum. and they are dicussing a very good topic. I thought i would bring something like that over here?
the question is do you have to pay $3000 to be competetive in the IOM class, a class that was started for the average sailor? much like the us 1 meter? i realy dont know how much a us 1 meter kit is worth?. but the average IOM is $1000. i drive a epoch , which is $399. and i like it. i have also designed my own IOM. which is fast too. what do you think
does money make a skipper fast? or do you have to pay to win?
cougar
long live the cup
It would be interesting to know the cost of the top ten boats in the US Nationals, the UK Nationals and the recent World Championship.
I’ve constantly heard how you can get brand new IOMS for under $1000 but are they competitive with the equipment necessary for top level competition? I don’t know the answer for sure but it seems to be an important question to many interested people; it would be nice to be able to get a straight unbiased and accurate answer from somebody…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Build yourself a cat or tri out of balsa, take the rig of one of those insanley expensive IOM’s and learn the meaning of FAST!! (ok, and swiming!)
I’ll shut up now…[;)]
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
Interesting topic over there, and yes, I can see where the money goes… if you aren’t doing it yourself.
I know we have examples on this site of low dollar purchases made here and there, for various and sundry bits and pieces. And I can certainly post a “bucks down”, cheap - errrr inexpensive list of inventory to show an IOM can be built for much less.
But - if you are going out to “purchase” an IOM, at what level will you be competing? If local, then a $500-$600 boat might well be your ticket. If at a regional level, that same boat may get you through the event - even at the top if lucky and very good skipper. But sooner or later, all that experience, skill and tactics are matched by another skipper. It would seem to be at this point, one would begin looking “seriously” at the expensive boats - for any small improvement over the opponents.
As I posted on the other forum, there currently is an Italko for sale with an asking price of $2,000. At first glance - “How can this be?” one would ask. But if you stop, look at what is being sold, and give thought to what it would cost you to replicate the items, there may not be a very big profit involved.
The guy has five (5) sets of sails including one Cuben Fiber. So what is going rate for a professionally made sail set for the IOM? I guessed at $100 a set - and that is probably low, unless you get a discount for buying all five. Regardless - there is a cost of $500 (minimum) right off the bat. Then he has two rigs… at a cost of $100 each (for argument) and we are now up to $700. Add in the cost of a Guyatt winch at an estimate of $125 and we are at $825. The seller is including a 3 Channel FM radio - maybe another $175 and heck we are at $1000 already. This is WITHOUT the cost of the hull, custom keel and carbon rudders. I have no idea what an Italko goes for, nor the cost of keel and rudder, but I don’t think they are inexpensive.
Cougar mentions $3,000 which has been bounced around on the two major forums for a top-end, German, Marblehead. My guess is that Roy Langbord who owns one of them could probably detail similar costs for components. Don’t forget freight ! ANYTHING shipped is subject to a healthy fee for handling, especially in the larger sizes.
So I can’t answer if you have to pay to win, but certainly feel it improves your odds - especially if you are a National or World Class skipper seeking any bit of help to go faster.
That is the argument that is used for one-design classes, yet with a few exceptions, no one wants to take a stock factory boat and sail it as it comes. We wetsand. We purchase multi-panel type sails instead of single panel. We replace wood or aluminum masts with carbon fiber. We remove plastic or wood decks in favor of fabric decks. Out with the ply keels and in with CNC shaped aluminum or carbon fiber. But no one looks back. What are you saying to the beginner? Yet there are plenty who post here that are sailing home designs/creations. They have homemade Tyvek sails. In the end, they may be having more fun than the serious competitor, but they also need to realize that top competition costs money.
You need to look at what is being sailed and decide if you can afford it. Too often we spend a lot of time on the few expensive boats, but also we read where people leave a class because they can’t afford to spend to stay competitive. This is unfortunate - but a fact of life. Maybe we dwell too much on costs, but I don’t suggest we ignore it either. Only suggesting you put the costs into perspective.
As an aside, I think one area that could be greatly improved in educating and promoting the “home build” boats, is to award a trophy and promote the top finishing HOME MADE boat at a regatta. So it only finishes fifth - but give the builder/owner some needed recognition for his hard work and efforts, especially if it isn’t a factory produced one-design class. It might make a difference. We did a similar thing in our cat class - having two categories - a lightweight (for custom builders) and a heavy-weight for the heavier, factory boats. They all raced together for an overall trophy, but then the heavyweights were pulled out, scored separately and given trophies of their own. A little more epensive, but you should see the smiles when a heavy production boat managed to slide into the top overall spots !
And direct to Cougar’s queston - yes, “it takes rectangular dollars to produce linear speed!” At least in my opinion.
i like the idea of an award for the home built. i know some people dont know this man. but marko majic, builds his own IOMs. and he kicks my ass. he is a real nice guy. but it seems that he can do that well at the worlds? but is that because he lacks the experince or his boat is slower?. i think you have to spend some money to get that extra 1/10 knt. but what i am wondering how in gods name can i produce a IOM hull for less than $60 cdn.and a ts2 can be sold for $2000. you cannot tell me there is $1500 worth of materails in that hull?
sails and everything else. maybe but just the hull and keel?
cougar
long live the cup
Cougar, the problem for Marko (and my problem too) it?s not building a straight boat under 100$ (Hek, with 500$ worth of material I?m in the process of building my 4th balsa hull ? 7th if count a CF hull and two plugs) but the tuning and the development ?after? the hull is done. Yes, Marko?s hull is well build and beautiful (so was my USOM), it maybe fast too (so was my USOM, or I thought it was until I started to race it with Venom?s and ORCO?s) but has it reached all his potential? Can it be improved and if so how? The reason why it didn?t finish in the top ten (or twenty) at the world?s it?s because of Marko?s sailing, the boat tuning or the boat construction?
If you by a TS2 you will receive with your hull with a complete booklet with all the rigging and tuning instruction, you basically reduced your learning curve to one season. You pay top dollars for some boats (more than I?m willing to dish out ?? and I equally enjoy building boats) but in most cases you get more than a hull, sails and electronics, you get years of (some bodies else?s) experience. The same works for the USOM with the Venom?s, a kit is around 1000$ (more or less) but you get a proven fast boat, with tuning and rigging help and all the development already done.
Gio
so basicly what you are saying is. if i read it correctly? that money makes up for experience?
i have never raced a ts2. but I have always wanted to drive one. but the thing that stops me is I am not going to pay $1500 us for something i dont know anything about. tuning a boat, is a skill. but it ais a skill that can be learned. and the rigging should be the same . the ts2 has a backstay line. my cutlass has a backstay line. both control the mast bend? both boats have side shrouds? so the rigging lines are the same. what you are paying for is somebody to set up your boat for you. and that meens that money makes a faster boat?.
cougar
long live the cup
Yep -
and back to the real basics… you can sand a plug, or you can pay someone else to sand it. If you choose someone else, it is oging to cost more. (this on the building side of things)
ok; I am going to make some people angry…but some IOM’s hull were developped with a PC soft(s)…someone has to buy that soft (and they arent cheap!!); you also pay the guy who designed the hull…he spent a lot of time in doing that; and testing!..so the real question should be:
Is a 2000 USD competitive “ready to sail” IOM that expensive???
Wis
if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!
cost is not the question the question is how good a designer your are and how good a builder you are. if you are a good designer you are allready half way there. if you can build it all the better but not as important because as long as it is half decent and floats you can race and the next one will be better! if the design is right and the boak is ok then as long as the skipper is hald deicent you will do well but if you can not design a good boat it is porbibly wise to buy a boat no matter what the cost and race that then fiddle with design and consrtuction when you have a boat on the water
really cost is an issue for me but i can design and build and half the fun and i really dont care how well the bot will race ok maby idd like it to win but thats only part of it
i know that if i spent $3000 on a boat i would want it to blody well win
btw a lot of work and time goes in to the boats and the cost is not only in the materials that is used on the finished boat it is in the design and making of molds testing of boat all the dogs that failed the test then re making untill the final boat is made all this takes time which the designer/builder has to be paid for or he will go broke
When the Apprentice knows more than the Mentor its time to quit!
MichaelB! never thaught you could be so deep! well put!
Must have a good Mentor! hehehe
If you can’t build it yourself to save money than you have little options! if you want a cheap rc there are boats out there but… you get what you pay for - Pay peanuts you have a monkey designing it! (only compared to other boats longer/lighter/faster) on the flip side of the coin the cheapies would be great fun so long as you could race against the same type… but in all yachting we’re all looking for that “edge” to get us over the line a boat length earlier and all those edges cost $$$$$$
Want to win at all cost … well says it all does’nt it???
Want to enjoy the sport… costs as much as you want it to.
does that mean that its time for you to quit???
When the Apprentice knows more than the Mentor its time to quit!
michael
i would agree that people put time into building and testing, and after 3 or 4 boats. you get a winner? but i have designed 3 boats so far (all IOM) and yes the first to a duck could beat. my 3rd boat was better. but i love designing. and i think the same as all people. but i dont think i will xcept people to pay for my first 2 boats?. So as an IOM sailor. i would only want to pay for what i get. and for $3000 , i better get a damm fast boat. my epoch is a good boat. and i did not pay $3000 for it
cougar
long live the cup
I agree with what Cougar is suggesting,that the cost of equipping yourself to sail competitively means that the guy with the biggest bank account will always have the most advantage.You only have to look at the world of big boats to see that, America’s Cup is the classic example.It started out as a race between two millionaires and is fast becoming a race for billionaires.Why do you think Australia hasn’t competed recently ? simply because there is no one here with the money to do so. Is that in the best interests of yachting ?
BUT this is life/sport today, it doesn’t matter what the sport it will always be the guy with the most state of the art technology that will win.Ferrari dominating F1 racing,Honda factory teams in Motorcycling,down under we have a production car race series,V8 super cars mainly between to manufacturers, GMH and Ford.The cars supposedly are the same as the ones you can buy from your local dealer, except his will cost you $40,000, a race version will cost over $600,000.When the competition started years ago it really was a production series, you could buy a car from a dealer, just add on the mandatory safety gear and race.There were many different models of cars racing, now there are only 2, the ones from the manufacturers with the most money.
The reason that this happens is this.Because it is a competition the guy with the most competitive spirit will always be the guy that will move heaven and earth and make any sacrifice necessary to get whatever it takes (even cheat or change the rules)(A/Cup?) to make sure that he wins.
C’est la vie.
I’ve learned, That the easiest way for me to grow as a person is to surround myself with people smarter than I am.
(what am I doing here?)lol
I would say the guy with the biggest bank account may have a slight advantage but even with the most open classes, there is only so much you can spend. It may be a little more than your current budget allows all at once but it is not that much that you cannot reasonably aquire the best equipment over time(unless you are really hurting). There are many classes from the IOM down to the Soling that limit you so much on what you can use that there is a real fixed cost to the sport. Boat development has slowed greatly in all classes in the last few years save the multi-canting blah blah classes. Even in the M class the best boats of recent note have been around for 5 or more years so if you split the cost over three or four years a $4000US boat and rig unit can be broken down to about$20 per week, and to be really competive you can still knock about $1500 of of that cost. The IOM is so regulated that you CANT spend too much money. Neither class has really really been of the “boat of the week” type that the M experienced in the 80’s-we bought an new boat every year because design and technology changed so much and so fast-that is not the case now- better boats built now than ever, the competitive life is long (I have two M’s that are over 10 years old and relatively compentive) and just bought an M that is at least three years old and an IOM that is about the same-total cost for both no rigs included was $1100 and I know the M is very competitive on a national basis and assume the IOM is pretty much in the band of competitive boats too. The best sailors now have excellent tuning skills combined with great thumbs (they are called thumb boats here in Marblehead to distinguish them from the many full size cousins getting ready to go in the water as we speak) It is really not that bad considering other hobbies. Low membership dues, low entry fees for national and regional regattas, free local sailing. Hey its alot cheaper than golf.
On here and on the other site the original point is still being missed.
Iom Hull and deck. Rudder and centreboard.
No sails, winch, rigging, pulleys masts etc. are included in the price.
The price is $2000, where is the value in that?
Yeah sure you can go on about development of the design etc. but after how many boats does the builder say “well the development is paid for and the boats are fast, so I will make them more affordable”?
Don’t forget any builder worth his salt is going to make molds etc. for his design. These do take some time to get right, but after 20 or 30 boats there should have been enough money made to cover the costs of this.
I spoke to a group of r/c sailors on the weekend who sail IOm for fun, and they said themselves that the prices charged are ridiculous, but if people are stupid enough to pay that amount the builders will keep charging it.
The other point they made was that IOM racing was for that elite group who wanted to keep it that way. (At least over here anyway).
So if it seriously costs $2000 to produce hull and deck for an IOM design that has been on the water for three years now(with no modifications)then I would like to know what materials they are using as exotics are illegal in the class. I figure they must be using gold plated fibreglass or something similar because it costs no where near that to build the things.
R/C sailing should be a sport affordable to get involved in and not just set aside for the elitous few.
Peter
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>R/C sailing should be a sport affordable to get involved in and not just set aside for the elitous few.
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AMEN BROTHER!
Part of the reason we started Climate Models.
Hight quality boat kits at an afordable price for everyone.
Slightly more expensive than the plastic imports, but way beter quality. (and customer support too!)
Peter R.
www.climatemodels.com
Visit www.climatemodels.com
if you have the skill, talent and time to build your own hull, then you dont/wont have to spend a lot of money.
i believe that for $2000, it should be a ready to race boat with spare rigs and sails , just add water
ed
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by ClimateModels
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>R/C sailing should be a sport affordable to get involved in and not just set aside for the elitous few.
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AMEN BROTHER!
Peter R.
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Yes you are right on the mark.
How to kill a sport fast---- price it out of the range a average person can afford.
Many sports have done this (minor hockey, archery, ect ect) So we end up with a lot of people that love the sport and are good at the sport but unable to play due to the cost.
I believe a person when entering any sport must look at a few things.
1 Where they want to go within the sport
I want to sail locally and yes to compete against others in the sport. I would love to head to Llyods pond and sail with him and there are others here I would love to sail with also. Maybe one day.(I am working on a sailing tourer for 2005, have boat will travel)
- Are they in it for fun or for glory
I have found the minute a sport becomes all consuming I start to lose interest in it. If every day I am are spending money to “inprove” my boat. By every waking hour is consumed with how I can go faster and win all the races. Do I care that John Doe beat me in a race nope just shows that he had a better day of sailing and may be a better sailor.
- Am I willing to shell out big dollars.no way would I spend that kind of money. (unless i wanted a major lawyer fee for the devorce.)Can I afford a 1500.00 boat yes if I don’t buy other things I need or want, I entered this sport thinking low cost(must be the scotish blood in me). Lots of web searchs and lots of talking to owners in the end I bought a Victoria. Yes I want a IOM. Again with the IOM I look at low cost but a boat that will work Epoch is on the top of the list for me. Sure it is not a legal boat (carbon masts) but I do not care. Only two IOM owners that I know of in the whole province of Alberta. So sailing will be local with a few trips north to sail with them (3hour trip one way) And Peter from Climate Models has told me legal masts are soon to be availble.
If we promote the sport with the idea that you have to spend BIG dollars to be in it we like many sports will not get the “new” blood involved and the death of rc sailing will happen. Postings about the “Footy Class” and building your own boats (US1M and IOM) is the way we can make RC Sailing live and growing.Giving people plans and information and offering to help them build a sailboat not only brings new people into the sport but builds a strong club. The mind set right from the local level up to the National bodies must be TO PROMOTE RC SAILING AT A LOW COST. This may mean haveing to go and promote cheaper boats but I would rather see 20 to 100 sailors at the pond with low cost boats then see only 2 or 3 with high priced boats. And no one else there.
Will the 1000.00 to 2000.00 boats still be there Yes there is always someone that wants one
Can a person compete with a so called "lower " end boat you be they can. We have all seen a person with rag tag gear take the trophy and win a event. Much to the dismay of many. ( hmm the story of the tortise and the hare comes to mind)
Well that is my ramble
Happy Sailing
Jeff
Alberta
I think that when racing becomes too expensive it is because of poor class management. Now sure, some people may like spending thousands of dollars to win races, and thats fine, but if there was no way that spending the money would make you go faster would people still do it? If a class is structured in such a way that excesive cost is eliminated then best skippers are the ones who spend less money and more time sailing.
Troy
19 out of 7 people have trouble with statistics