<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by aym
well, in France there is more 2m than mini40 (something only 2 or 3 on regatta)
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Are there ANY r/c multihulls sailing in France that are using foils or moving ballast?
Do you know why more 2 Meter boats are racing than Mini40?
Thank you for your answers.
well j have only two exemples of foiler trimarans (but one is only for speed )
I thing there are 20 skippers of 2M, racing in france and less than
a 2M racing
for the preference for 2M, j think it’s a question of sailing … it is easier to sail a big one than a smaller for racing…
but I am not a specialist !
YES!!! Thanks for those pictures!
For those interested in foilers the two boats shown use what are called surface piercing foils. They have the advantage that as the boat goes faster it rises out of the water reducing the wetted surface of the immersed foil. They have a disadvantage in that they depend on the same thing a regular rc multihull does for stability :the weight of the boat. But that masks another benefit in that the surface piercing foil is only lifting NOT developing righting moment like the Bradfield type foiler. On big boats, surface piercing foilers have the added disadvantage that they tend to ventillate quite easily but that doesn’t happen on models.
Because of the stability issue the surface piercer can’t carry the sail a fully submerged foiler can but what it does carry it does at greatly reduced drag. The setup of a surface piercer is also simpler than a Bradfield type foiler.
Surface piercing design using twin rigs allows a lot of power with greatly reduced heeling moment at the cost of some sail eficiency-but in the case of a foiler and or normal multihull the reduction in aerodynamic efficiency can be offset by the heeling moment reduction resulting in great speed.
Some surface piercing boats can be designed with a degree of controllable twist which allows the surface piercer to develop some righting moment with the foils if desired.Retractable main foils could also be worked out…
Do you know whether or not these boats have been raced against “normal” rc multi’s?
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
you know what keep me away form certian. boats. basic price. and how complex the boat is. matt idea. to get BACK ON TOPIC was for a mutli hull for the people like me. who do not know anything about them. all of you have turn this into a tech discussion. and that is what kills classes. i have talked with matt l about getting a multihull for the people who want to try it. but dont want to sell the house , or build a dock for my boat.
surface peiceing fois? what is that? why is it important? what does it do? do you need it? can you run without it? how do you tune it? is it important?.
so many questions.
i like to matts idea. a simple hull. does not have to be super fast, hell it does not even have to be fast. just sailable. the cost under $1000 cdn. and that includeds radio and sails. I think it is doable.
cougar
long live the cup
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
Do you know whether or not these boats have been raced against “normal” rc multi’s?
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it was stated that one of them is for speed sailing only. My guess is the top one.
the top one is also too large to fit in MultiONE ot F-48/Mini40 Class
The middle one (#22) is a cat configuration and “might” be F-48/Mini40 size.
The bottom photo is of at least six 2 Meter (giants) racing. Pretty impressive.
Interesting to note on the foilers, that they seem to have a mast top float - you know, one of my suggested items for beginner sailors? Hmmmm, now what do you suppose they use them for - loss of stability maybe?
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by cougar
the cost under $1000 cdn. and that includeds radio and sails. <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
OK Cougar - here is what we have so far …
A boat builder - YOU
(based on your previous posts)
A budget of $1,000 CAD which is about $740 US
A list of supplies and their costs for the PULSE MultiONE by Jack Ronda.
<center>$230 US = $311 CAD</center>
That leaves you a total of $689 CAD to purchase your radio equipment. Note that sail material was already included in Jack’s cost estimates for his trimaran. I just have to think that an arm winch, receiver, rudder servo, transmitter and batteries would NOT cost $689 CAD? Am I right?
So the facts are …
A lot of designs are there for your use
Cost examples look to be within your budget
You have built boats before
What would keep you from going ahead with the build of an r/c trimaran?
Just curious. And if you say “I don’t like multihulls” - THAT is an acceptable answer, because not everyone does - contrary to DOug’s belief about the “masses”!
Dick, to help you understand: the two foilers shown are SURFACE PIERCING foilers. That means that they DO NOT DEVELOP THEIR OWN RIGHTING MOMENT as do fully submerged foilers of the Bradfield or Ketterman type.
That means they can capsize like any other type of multihull and again points up the advantages of the auto stabilized foiler I have described under Foiler Design…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Is that you Doug? I didn’t think you had time to participate in this discussion!
dick
where is that muiltone( pulse is it?) . i would love to get it. and this is what matt and i were talking about. an affordable mutlihull? i have never heard of it. but you have me intrested. do you know hwre ei can get pictures? and it is a cat right?
thanks. it is what matt and wis and i talk about a boat under $1000
cougar
long live the cup
To be honest I dont like the idea of a scaled down mini40 as a multione, it is screaming no at me. Has it been sailed in 25knot winds yet? Did it stay upright? Unless it passes that test then I would advise you to not consider it.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
I’ve said it before I’ll say it again: scaling down an F48 to multiONE size is a BIG mistake. The losses in pitch stability from scale effect alone will make it a hugely difficult boat to sail in wind over about 8mph.
Matt, you’ve said your multi One is fast and stable ; how does it tack and point?
If it does well maybe it is a candidate to be scaled up for the boat which is the goal of this thread? And a good boat for Cougar- though I think a foiler would be much more suitable for a beginner…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
That’s fine if it’s your opinion. Don’t read too much into Doug’s opinions, because the boats we presented, whether Mini 40/F-48 - or bigger at 2 Meter, or smaller at 1 Meter are all sailing! Doug’s - well still hot air and nothing from his hands except words on the screen.
… and a scaled down MultiONE is nothing more than a scaled down F-48, which is nothing more than a scaled down 2 Meter which is nothing more than a scaled down 3 Meter, which is … get the idea. well you get the idea - where do you want to stop?
The Mini40 is a scaled down Formula 40 and etc. etc. First off who sails in consistent 25 knot winds? I said it before - (to Alberta Clipper) I believe. If that is your average, everyday sailing weather DON’T CONSIDER A MULTI of any kind, size, configuration! Made it a bit bolder so you see it.
It’s a windy day over here when it hits about 15-18 mph (not knots!) The only other photos I’ve seen are the IOM’s down in Texas, and I would call some of those photos surviving - not sailing. Even some of the big beach cats have maximum wind speed rules. The "C Class cats ( our Formula 1 counterparts) even have wind speed maximums - so why would you expect a regular, everyday sailing multihull would be designed for those speeds. Here’s a suggestion - put a Victoria rig and sails on a F-48, and my guess is that it will stay upright. And - what other class would you require to pass the same test in the same wind strengths? Come on - get real !
A simple solution ---- “If you can’t keep it up - don’t take it out!” Hmmmm - that could have a double meaning, I guess.
So back to you - are you “in” with what we have suggested, or are you joining Doug and going to analyze this thing to death like he has for 4 years? Like Doug - suggestions were made - none from you none from Doug - just critique ! Try being part of the solution, Matthew - we already have one negative person to deal with, don’t make it two !
WHAT EXACTLY IS <u>YOUR</u> SOLUTION ?
Cougar - no - the boat is NOT a catamaran!
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This is PULSE ! if you want a catamaran - then use one of Matt’s designs, or place your order with Anthony Wright.
Re my cat;-
It points pretty high, although racing will be the only way to find the optimum angle for upwind vmg, might pay to foot faster than point, the speed difference between a few degrees is huge. Tacking is relatively slow after sailing a mono and it takes a knack to keep it moving all the way round, this is a very light boat and it wont carry its way like a mono. That was my reasoning for a tri as a first time multi as they handle more like a mono round the corners.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
Part of “the PROBLEM” is when multihull promoters who have no experience sailing rc multihulls suggest that it is ok to promote multies that cannot perform in the same conditions as there monohull sisters do.
That is one of the old wives tales that was passed down from the days of the 36" long Trident and one of the sources of ridicule for rc multihulls.
I KNOW from sailing experience in rc multihulls that a multi CAN be designed to sail in those same conditions!
But if you scale a multiONE from an F48 without making serious changes you are asking for problems in strong winds…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Dick Lemke
… and a scaled down MultiONE is nothing more than a scaled down F-48, which is nothing more than a scaled down 2 Meter which is nothing more than a scaled down 3 Meter, which is … get the idea. well you get the idea - where do you want to stop?
The Mini40 is a scaled down Formula 40 and etc. etc. First off who sails in consistent 25 knot winds? I said it before - (to Alberta Clipper) I believe. If that is your average, everyday sailing weather DON’T CONSIDER A MULTI of any kind, size, configuration! Made it a bit bolder so you see it.
It’s a windy day over here when it hits about 15-18 mph (not knots!) The only other photos I’ve seen are the IOM’s down in Texas, and I would call some of those photos surviving - not sailing. Even some of the big beach cats have maximum wind speed rules. The "C Class cats ( our Formula 1 counterparts) even have wind speed maximums - so why would you expect a regular, everyday sailing multihull would be designed for those speeds. Here’s a suggestion - put a Victoria rig and sails on a F-48, and my guess is that it will stay upright. And - what other class would you require to pass the same test in the same wind strengths? Come on - get real !
A simple solution ---- “If you can’t keep it up - don’t take it out!” Hmmmm - that could have a double meaning, I guess.
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I dont belive what you have just written. All the fullsize multi sailors I know would happily go out in 25 knots, 35 they might be put off, but 25 is fine, we get that at leat once a month overh here on average. Personally i think if a beach cat can take it, so should a model!
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
If you want to know the in’s and out’s of one metre multihull’s, you all need to talk with Graham Howard. He was building and sailing these things 12 years ago. The class died due to the fact that the sail area they could handle was very small.
Strange how increasing the length of a boat by 200mm (8") can allow for sail area to be nearly doubled.
Graham built one metre long multihull’s as cat’s and tri’s but went away from the idea when the mini40 was found.
My honest opinion is that the one metre multihull class is not worth promoting, but that is only my opinion.
Peter
P.S. Graham’s e-mail address is available from me. He may respond to civil questions regarding the one metre multihull.
Peter
I have worked with Graham and have built and sold 1 metre multihulls (still have the trimaran moulds) and Ill post some pics as soon as I get them scanned in.
For a while, Graham looked after Qld, I looked after NSW and we had another guy in Victoria to promote the class. The mini 40 rule was the death of the class.
You are correct about the sail carrying ability. The difference between a 1 metre and a boat 1.2 metres is huge.
Although inital cost may be slightly higher for the bigger boat (and I do mean slightly) the bigger boat is easier to sail, faster and more impressive to watch.
Having built both in the past, I won’t build a 1 metre multihull again. There is no need for another class of multihull, especially one which does not perform as well as an existing well established class.
Just my 2 cents
Troy
19 out of 7 people have trouble with statistics
Hey Doug - aren’t you going to step in here?
After all - you are the guy who says it won’t work - scale effect and all that. So scaling down from a full size to an F-48 (for sake of discussion) is’t that a scale effect?
And if it is - Doesn’t that “presume” that for the same reasons one can’t scale down a 2 meter to Mini40 to MultiONE have the same problems trying to sale a model boat in 35 knots of wind? What about that scale effect? What about the scale effect from the wave that are around at 35 knots? Come on guys - you can’t have it one way and not another. Get together, get your emails going, and get your stories straight. If an F-48 can’t scale to a MultiONE, then 35 knots can’t scale down to a 4 foot long boat compared to an 18 foot boat. If you don’t believe me, that discussion was had under the topic of Bruce Numbers, water line lengths. In that discussion Doug Lord posted specifically that one cannot compare power to weight ratios if the hull lengths were so dramtically different !
What exactly is the story you are trying to feed us now?
I don’t mind a dicussion and arguments over theory - but you can’t change the theory between topics without being perceived as a liar on one of the posts or the other.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>25 is fine, we get that at leat once a month overh here on average. Personally i think if a beach cat can take it, so should a model! <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Which implies if an 18 foot boat can take it so can a 4 foot boat??? Whose leg are you trying to pull?
Matthew, maybe you best email Doug, get your stories straight and try again about scale effects! While at it keep in mind proven and accepted theories of deeper keels and taller rigs to make up for “scale effects”. It happens to wind and waves too !
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
Part of “the PROBLEM” is when multihull promoters who have no experience sailing rc multihulls suggest that it is ok to promote multies that cannot perform in the same conditions as there monohull sisters do.
That is one of the old wives tales that was passed down from the days of the 36" long Trident and one of the sources of ridicule for rc multihulls.
I KNOW from sailing experience in rc multihulls that a multi CAN be designed to sail in those same conditions!
But if you scale a multiONE from an F48 without making serious changes you are asking for problems in strong winds…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
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Doug - is that you AGAIN? Man, amazing how often you post when you are too busy to post!
And, if I’m not mistaken, are you one of the two guys who “created” the MultiONE Class… and now are badmouthing everything trying to be done?
Oh <font size=“3”>EXCUSE ME </font id=“size3”>---- it really was a “front” so you could build and promote your foilers! I FORGOT ! You needed some changes and the F-48 Class didn’t allow that, so you “inserted” yourself and and had the rules written so you can build a “bastard” multihull that is 1 meter long but can be up to 48 inches (1.2 meters) wide!
Keep in mind, Doug - I wasn’t involved in that class - but you were. NOW it become clear … a foiler class, just for Doug’s boats. How convenient!