A F48/Mini 40 for the masses.

MultiHulls General Discussions (MultiHull/MultiOne)
81

Peter - Troy …

Size is relevant. A Victoria doesn’t carry as much sail as a Seawind. Yet both are sailed and both compete within their class sizes. I’m not sure why you insist on comparing the 1 Meter to the 1.2 Meter. They are different boats, they are different size classes. Neither of the smaller monohulls is competitive with a Marblehead either - so what?

It would be refreshing if a topic could be carried on without jumping back and forth about size.

Matthew asked for a list of inexpensive boats. If you can have an F-48 on the water and sailing in 35 knot winds as requested by Matt - and do it for less than $400 - I will be excited. If it is an F-48, it <u>won’t</u> have the sail area on it that is normally associated with the F-48. Now that means it will have <u>less sail area </u>- and the capacity to carry that sail area - identical to you negativity toward the 1 Meter boat.

Why is it OK for a Mini40 to carry less sail area in those strong of winds (that maybe happen only once per month) but when it is suggested that the 1 Meter could do the same, it isn’t acceptable? Double standards?

As I said - I have provided information, breakdown of costs, photos, etc. and anyone interested can build to either size. That’s all I can do. The buyer/owner will make their decisions and vote with their pocket book.

Obviously in the past they have voted against the foilers from Microsail. They also seem to have voted against building their own to save money. What is left is what you guys and Matthew can come up with “for the masses”. Best of luck !

82

because I wanted to build a cat, j have seen that there a gulf between standart servo-winch and servo-winch for IOM and Mini40
10? against 50-60?
so, I decide to build with a length compatible with first price servo ! (total estimated to 130?max with radio)in mono it’s 65cm max and for multi, it’s 82cm (mini28) with 1 kg displacement

http://www.voilemodele.fr.st go an see “multicoques” (only mini28 and mini40 catamaran)
a mini28 cat
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/o.quinot/voilemodele2/MQC.htm
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/o.quinot/voilemodele2/030731/0307po4.htm

83

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>3. The middle one (#22) is a cat configuration and “might” be F-48/Mini40 size.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

no, it’s the mini40 trimaran “hydro fly”

the two boat here (in english)and other water resist,http://radioyachting.com/uk_news.htm
and the minifoiler on water here
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/amn.minifoiler/id74.htm

84

precisions:
in 2003 there are 28 skippers racing in 2M (average8-9 per regatta)
29 in 2001 and 30 in 1997
and only 7 (2003) in mini40
15 in 2001 and 32! in 1997

85

The multiONE one meter multihull was originally conceived of by me to be a boat thatwould require foils to sail well around a course in all conditions-thats why the beam is 48"

Regardless of size, I believe that all rc multihuls should:

  1. Be able to sail in the same conditions as an equivalent sized monohull.
  2. Be able to convincingly beat an equivalent sized monohull around a triangular or windward leeward course.
  3. Be able to be sailed by a beginer in strong conditions w/o fear of capsize or pitchpole.
    If these criteria are met in a multihull under a thousand dollars US then I think it would sell exceptionally well.

Note:SRM-CK posted 11:36pm 4/28
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

86

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>1) Be able to sail in the same conditions as an equivalent sized monohull.
2) Be able to convincingly beat an equivalent sized monohull around a triangular or windward leeward course.
3) Be able to be sailed by a beginer in strong conditions w/o fear of capsize or pitchpole.
If these criteria are met in a multihull under a thousand dollars US then I think it would sell exceptionally well.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
well, in france, a mini40 champion in 2001 was sold at 350? without electronic
A good handyman can make a very good tri for 300? (with radio !!!) (dollar = euros)

For my mini28 cata, I plan 130? !!!

http://www.ifrance.com/hydro-fly/hydrofly/hudrofly.htmI have found the hydrofly on the web

87

FIGJAM (doug)

You are so full of yourself. When are you going to face facts that the r/c multihull, whether mini40,F-48, Multione or any other type in any configuration is never going to be a big seller.

The interest in them unfortunately just isn’t there. IMHO if the AMYA were able to hold a national r/c multihull championship and have 30-40 boats show up they would be ecstastic. That is not a boat/class that has sold exceptionally well.

We are very happy to have 10 boats show up, over time we would like to see those numbers increase to 20 or so. We have our feet firmly on the ground, and we realise that the r/c multihull is never going to have a large following.

Face the facts, in general r/c sailors don’t want to have a boat that has even the slightest chance of capsizing. That is why most sail lead bellies. They want competition, they want to be able to not have to worry to much about rig selection.

I know with some of these comments, i’ll here all about how good the movable ballast, bradfield foiler system, etc etc etc is.(not to mention some disgruntled monohull sailors, sorry fellas it wasn’t meant to be hurtful) Personally I don’t give to hoots about how good you think they are, but I’ll tell you what, get one on the water that rates under the F-48/mini40 or Multione class rules and prove that it works against conventional multi’s and I’ll shut up.

As the saying goes “the proof is in the pudding”. I know that our development is on the right course. Your ideas have proved nothing.
Sure your F-3 apparently beat a regular F-48 around a course, big deal it should have it’s almost two feet longer.

Back to the original topic.

If some-one could assist me please.I would like to know if there are any of the old proven designs like the Snapdragon or Ghost Train in the States? If so and they are in sailable condition I would like to pass on the development/improvement concepts that have worked over here on these two designs. When we first got a hold of these boats, they didn’t tack well, pointed badly and had capsizing problems. We changed things about them, and now these boats are competitive. This was our starting point. Things have since moved on and the new ideas in design are hitting the water.

I’m thinking that if these type of boats are around in the States, then there are boats already built that could be reworked for well under the suggested price.

Just a thought.

Peter

88

Peter - to my knowledge, there are no Snapdragon boats around. Mike Howell (designer) indicated that even though the plans are sold through Traplett Publications he has no issue if more than one boat is built from a single plan set.

I built FREIGHT TRAIN, but the design wasn’t intended for our midwest summer sailing conditions. Too light of winds, and WAY TOO MUCH hull surface area (teardrop shape) so it has since been shelved.

GHOST TRAIN is available for free, but again, I have not heard of any built or sailed in the US.

What is interesting is at the start of the multihull effort here in late 1999, the Snapdragon plans were being sold for $13 US and people were complaining of the cost. Free plans are out there yet no one is building.

The IMPULSE design for my 1 Meter follows the general lines of current beach boat thought. In fact the main hull has a resemblance to the NACRA F-18 with slightly less rocker. Again, these drawing have been made available for free, the boat is designed to be glass over foam - and yet ???

In the meantime, AYM from France (?) has posted the costs for a French Mini40 (used). Hard to believe the price, but then again I’m here and he is there. If these are true, we all should be buying up the French Mini40’s !

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>well, in france, a mini40 champion in 2001 was sold at 350? without electronic
A good handyman can make a very good tri for 300? (with radio !!!) (dollar = euros)

For my mini28 cata, I plan 130? !!!<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

For reference:
350E = $ 415.00
300E = $ 356.00
130E = $ 154.00
and winch prices …
10E = $ 11.00
60E = $ 71.00

Matthew - maybe you might want to have one sent to you. Over here freight will probably be nearly the cost of the actual boat !

Oh, by the way - currently waiting for registration of two NIGHTMARE boats here in the U.S. Sail numbers assigned, just need final info from owner and will release a notice of new ownership/registration. My thanks (public) to Ian Sammis for helping to make these a reality as a builder.

89

well j don’t known if it is true, but this is the texte found on “minicoque.com” french forum

[i] Envoy? le 23-09-2003 ? 14:56

A Vendre MINI 40 Bon Etat avec 3 balestrons . Champion de france 2001 FFV . Sans Electronique . 350 Euros
Thibaut DE ZARAUZ Tel Port : 06-71-60-45-62[/i]

90

Matt ,this is the idea removed last night:

If you could allow a third channel a boat could be developed using a canting keel movable ballast system. You know with your own boat that an inexpensive winch can be used for smaller weights. On my own small CK trainer I’m using a 3801 and on the larger a Guyatt 280. The 30 is only 3.75" wide at the canting keel trunk lever and allows a 55 degree cant angle. That would allow a canting keel to be put in a main hull of a tri having a 13/1 beam to length ratio-not bad!
This could allow the ballast to be moved 40+" to windward of the lee hull and yet allow 100% recoverability by simply extending the keel straight down.The canting would not only add power it would probably make up for the extra drag of the bulb.
So what you would have would be a 100% recoverable multihull that was capable of sailing very fast! In fact the boat could be designed with almost no increase in cost to be coverted to an on deck PBS after the beginner had gotten better at handling the boat: the canting keel trunk could be locked and the same winch used to move on-deck ballast- but then the potential for recovery is eliminated.
Might be worth a proto to test this concept. In order to test it though a boat would have to be DESIGNED to carry the extra weight -no currently available boats(that I am aware of-D4Z is not currently available but would work for tests since it is designed for a PBS) would be suitable.A test could be made with an existing boat to determine exactly how deep the fin would havr to be and how much extra weight would be required to right the boat from a pitchpole/capsize…

Also check this:
http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=246&Search…

A) 3.8lb(1.72kg) tri:MAX RM=7.6 ft. lb
B) 3.8 tri +2.3lb. Canting keel plus winch=6.1lb(2.7kg.): MAX RM:15.2ft.lb.s
NOTE: over DOUBLE the power to carry sail on an F48 tri with a 2lb. canting keel/ approx.19"(.48m) fin/55 degrees

edt: add url, RM example
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

91

Will this sail in 35 knot winds as required, just like a full size boat as Matt stipulated?

and - just a few questions,…

isn’t adding weight going to make the boat slower?

isn’t adding a bigger servo going to make the boat slower?

isn’t adding a third winch going to make the boat cost more?

when “I” suggested adding a keel with lead for training/learning, “YOU” posted that it wouldn’t work. NOW - all of a sudden - a great revelation… DOUG LORD has found something to bring forward (regardless that the CK trainers still haven’t been sailing or proven anything against a similar sized boat without canting keel) … and SUDDENLY, Doug Lord proclaims leed on a keel on a multihull to be the cat’s a s s ! Well I’ll be …

Actually, if memory serves me correct, there are about 15 other places to post information on a canting keel, and most (all?) readers are capable of searching for those locations.

Can you please post (or move) this recent post to a CANTING KEEL TOPIC, since the use of this “idea” will not meet the topic specifications.

Darn it Doug - can’t you stay on topic at all?
Read the specs - stay with the discussion - or take your memory medications !

EDIT: Added the following
Guyatt 280 = $178 US from Great Basin
3 Channel receiver and Tx = $200 US
That’s an estimated $378 out of a budget of $400 ! Add in the cost of the PBS and it’s winch, and you would have no money to buy a hull in which to put the stuff !

92

I never said a fixed keel wouldn’t work; as a matter of fact check the link in my previous post where I proposed a similar idea SEVERAL MONTHS ago.If there is too much weight required to re-right the boat it would not work-that has to be tested because of the effect of wet sails ect.
As to the extra weight: it will have more of a negative effect than adding foils but it allows 100% recovery-if two pounds is enough which is not known for sure.
The whole idea is to create a recoverable multihull that would also perform.The statistics seem to indicate this boat might perform well.
In the initial post-Matt said 1-25…
This proposed idea has over twice the righting moment of a conventional F48 and not much more weight; it should do very well in strong winds -and if the weight is enough-should recover quite nicely.
However, I’m not confident that the weight is enough and much more would be too much…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

93

You conveniently avoided the part about the extra cost !

94

Does any one know were I can get some plans for 2 metre multihull as this might be a good winter project for me.

Are there any on website that anyone knows of.

Cheers Gappy

95

The plans for the two meter Midnight Oil are available from
Marine Modelling International; e-mail me and I’ll give you the editor’s e-mail address.
You can also contact Pierre Gonnet at the PG Modelisme website(don’t have url) or Robbie Nevitt of the British Multihull group at: bmma@talk21.com

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing