A F48/Mini 40 for the masses.

MultiHulls General Discussions (MultiHull/MultiOne)
41

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> By Matt Lingley:
So firstly, is there any boats alread out there that fit the box?<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> By Matt Lingley:
7. I must <font color=“red”>be able to be produced </font id=“red”>in number by anyone with a professional standard composits workshop.<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> By Doug Lord:
Nobody has described to me yet what has been accomplished here<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> By Cougar:
i for one would love to have a cat. for under $400. it does not have to be the fastest. but it has to work. i dont even know if i could handle a cat. but for $400 . i would like to give it a try<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> By Peter Birch:Every picture shows a boat that has been built for the price suggested. <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Well - there certainly are a few quotes to address… Not sure if they all need a response, or not, but will give them a response for any new reader, or potential owner/follower of this thread.

  1. Matt “suggested” - not required a set of criteria. Nothing included in his initial post indicated a “NEED” to design a completely new platform, rig or sail plan. He also asked if anything fits the criteria and it was responded to that there certainly seems to be enough designs that meet (or could meet) his criteria.

  2. Any or all of the boats could be produced in a production shop capable of working with glass or composities. Most good shops have the ability to make (or purchase) a CNC produced male “plug”. Most good shops have the ability to turn that male “plug” into a female mold.

2a. Most good production shops would be able to lay up a composite hull kit using the female mold - using vacuum bagging, pre-preg materials, auto clave, etc. - all depending on the size of the production shop.

2b. Depending on the size of the shop, nothing requires the complete boat to be fabricated, assembled or sold by one (1) shop, so a group of various production shops “could” fabricate a boat and bring it to market.

2c. The whole premisis is that there would be sufficient volume of buyers to warrant this effort and allow a production company to recoup their costs for setup. It doesn’t matter whether the design is brand new, or an existing, proven design is used as the basis for the boat.

  1. What we have accomplished here is as Peter noted - we already have boats that are capable of meeting all ( or darn near all) of Matt’s initial criteria. There is no need to spend time designing and testing a “NEW” design, just for the sake of it being “NEW”. We have put before you and the other interested readers, a list of boats, accompanied by photos that have been built and are <u>SUCCESSFULLY SAILING!</u> <u>That</u> is the point being made!

  2. Cougar, probably like many others, wants a multihull for under $400 ! I have addressed that desire in the following information. This was provided to me by Jack Ronda, the builder/owner of the red MultiONE featured elsewhere on this forum. Jack has totaled his costs to build his MultiONE. I am the first to admit that there is NO LABOR COSTS INCLUDED! If you want a cheap boat, YOU WILL HAVE to build it yourself. The facts of life to Cougar and others … you provide the labor, or you pay someone else to provide the labor. Simple concept. Get it ?

  3. As noted by Peter, every boat shown (with perhaps the exception of the 2 Meter boats) is at or very near Matthew’s price point.

Since all of the posted data points to existing designs, boats on the water and sailing, a variety of designs to choose from, then I would suggest it is merely a question of picking one and start building. I understand that Matthew would like to see a production boat that is cost effective, but it ain’t going to happen! If Graupner pulled out of production on the Butterfly kit, and if Ian is not having doors beaten down from new buyers with orders and cash in hand, and Microsail hasn’t found it profitable to bring out an F-48 in the last 4 years (even WITH foils), I don’t see any company taking a chance on a production run. Perhaps multihulls will be relegated to small private builders like Ian Sammis for the near future. I don’t know, and I’m not about to shop around looking for a production facility.

Finally, to address Cougar’s “wants” regarding pricing - here is what I received from Jack over the weekend. Hopfully some will find the costs to be acceptable. Remember, this is “home built” and doesn’t include labor or radio gear.

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> By Jack Ronda 4/26/04:
Hi Dick:

Here is a rough cut at the costs to build the 1 Meter Pulse. Estimates based on approximate amount of material actually used.

This may be off by a bit, but is a pretty good estimate of what I spent. This does not include any of the radio equipment.

Hope this helps.

Jack

Sails:
1.4 mil sail material $6.00
2.0 mil sail material $7.00
Sail Tape $1.50
Filament tape $1.00
Teflon tube for jib luff $7.00
Small eyelets and washers $1.50
Medium eyelets and washers $1.50
Corner tape $2.00
Sub total $27.50

Booms, mast and AMA boom material:
Mast and AMA booms $87.99
Boom material $ 2.50
Sub total $87.99

Hulls:
Styrofoam $3.00
Shadow plywood $4.00
3 ounce fiberglass cloth $13.00
West epoxy and hardener $39.00
Microballoons and colloidal silica $5.00
Misc. hardware & rigging $30.00
Sub total $94.00

Paint:
Krylon paint $11.83

Grand total $221.32
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

So, if we accept these costs (boat was recently completed) this still leaves almost $200 for radio equipment. Remember, Jack used a swing arm winch, so we aren’t talking the expense of a Guyatt drum either!

If you are sincerely interested in this - send me an email and I’ll get you in touch with Jack for specific building questions. Also keep in mind, this boat is the “PULSE” design that was a U.K. National Champion. It comes with a pedigree and has “proven” itself on the water and against competition. Until something else comes along to beat this design, it is still a very good performing boat. (and plans are available for both 1 Meter or Mini40/F-48 versions)

42

To reply to some of the above posts.

Firstly, doug can you read. You asked the question why are all the photos are showing boats in flat water with no wind.

If you READ the posts I state that the photos were taken on days with light winds and that is not the normal conditions for us. I suggest read the posts before commenting in the future.

Secondly, if I had explained myself properly, the post reply from Dick would not have mentioned the two metre. My point is that boats are being made for under the suggested price was directly relating to the boat pictures that I posted.
The two metre however, did cost a great deal more than the $400 to produce. The cat in Dick’s post(Grahams’ cat) is a home built boat that was designed and built by him. The design was found to be very hard to sail, as it was to narrow. He did sell several of these boats. They were more than $400, but the quality of work was impressive. As good as anything that would come out of “a composites production shop”.

Four years ago, we learnt here that the designs available then had to be modified to suit “local” conditions. At that time the boats were very had to tack, didn’t excellerate out of tacks very well and were a handful to stop pitchpoling/capsizing. After working on these designs, they now however, tack in almost there own length, excellerate out of tacks very well and rarely pitchpole/capsize in winds under 20 knots(When rigs are changed and T-foil rudders are included).

For new people in to r/c multihull classes these “old” designs with some re-working can be greatly improved. The required re-working includes centreboard chord, length and position. We have also experimented with sail shape and design and come up with easy to build powerful sails.

The progessive upgrading of the design concepts that we use over here has significantly improved the racing. The PULSE that races with our fleet(as pictured in my post under BOB2) is consistently at the tail of the fleet. Dick posted that it is a UK champion design, this tells be that either
(a) it doesn’t work over here
(b) the guy in the UK that drives it is better than the guy over here
© our boats are just much better
I did mention in posts a while back that a guy from the UK was visiting here some months ago. He sailed one of our boats and commented that they were quicker than anything he had seen in the UK.
I’ll stand on my soapbox for a while now and say that the Australian r/c multihull evolution is very strong. Old designs do work. They can be altered to make them quick and are a very good starting point for the new people into the class. They can be made very easily from plans.

This thread is good. But at this stage no r/c production shop is going to look at the idea of a ready to sail r/c multihull until there is a call for them. The only way to get them interested is to get boats on the water sailing. If that means existing builders (for the moment) build boats with little profit(for the good of the class)then that is what has to happen.

The r/c multihull fleets will never be as big as monohull fleets, but, if we can get 20-30 boats entered at National Titles in several countries, then that is what we should be looking at.

Continuing with this same arguement that technology is the way to go is ridiculous. It does nothing to assist the class, justs makes them think twice about purchasing one.

Peter

43

thank you Peter!

Wis

if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!

The “hostile” one [;)]

http://wismerhell.esmartdesign.com/index.htm

44

If one of the boats in the picture gallery presented under this thread is the “boat for the masses” as Matt called for what went wrong? What seems to be holding it back?
No offence to anybody but something is very wrong if the “boat for the masses” hasn’t drawn more than 8-10 people in the last 10 years…
What could the problem be?
I’ve seen traditional rc multihuls promoted here in the states -and we’re still cleaning up after that mess.
Innovation and the judicious application of modern technology IS the solution-you can bet on it!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

45

Well -

maybe someday we’ll find that person.

Are you sailing yet ? If not - go away until you are.

Still here? - build a boat, sell it - or race it! Bring out that “special design” that was supposed to have appeared 4 years ago. Many will be impressed - until then - more hot air !

So Matt - now waht - we have design, we have costs pretty much under control, we are ignoring Doug from here on out since he doesn’t have time for this … What’s next?

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming - WOW - What a Ride!

46

Wait a minute: don’t you see that if one of the previous boats represents the “boat for the masses” then something is terribly wrong somewhere?? I mean, the masses don’t seem to agree!!
It seems to me that even under Matt’s too restrictive modified criteria you would still have a lot of work to do–and part of that work would be to figure out how come the boat(s) you say fullfill’s the criteria isn’t very popular?
It seems to me that you have to get in touch with the basic factors that cause some people to want a multihull.
Peter has the cost incredibly low yet the boats aren’t popular; why?
I think there are factors that are intrinsic to the success of Matts idea that haven’t even been considered here…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

47

its the advertising made by some people; I guess!!!

Wis

if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!

<font color=“red”>The “hostile” one </font id=“red”>[;)]

http://wismerhell.esmartdesign.com/index.htm

48

Doug - go read the posts under “Starting a Class” and see if they give you a clue. <s>Bot</s> BOB T makes an excellent point - and perhaps the reason why Microsail isn’t getting mobbed by wanting buyers?

Obviously you aren’t comprehending what you’ve been reading on this topic site.

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming - WOW - What a Ride!

49

Obviously it needs to be said again. Not everybody want’s to sail a multihull. The few that do, want a boat that look easy to sail, and something like a full size boat.
Foilers don’t fall into this catergory whatsoever.
As has been posted before, if foilers are the way to go I am sure that the people in France (where the mini40 class originated) would be using them.
We are having over here the same problem as r/c sailors all over the world are having. They want to buy ready made boats. They don’t want to spend a fortune.
We have only be going for 4-5 years, but we do have nearly 30 registered boats, it’s just a shame that other commitments prevent them all from being sailed.
We want to increase the interest over here, which is why as a club this year we are travelling three hours north and south of where we sail to try to introduce them to as many people as possible.

Tranth, during this year we are going to Ballina for an event. Just thought you might be interested, as well as any others on the east coast.
Peter

50

What I want to know is if the “boat for the masss” has been found by Dick Lemke and Peter Birch why don’t the masses know it?
I could be wrong but I’m not sure you guys get it; there is a lot more work to be done to achieve what Matt was talking about…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

51

Doug

Has it ever accrued to you that maybe the masses don?t care about multihulls? Hence that?s why there aren?t that may of them.

No offence to the multihull guys, but damn???

-Dan

52

Yeah it has Dan- I think about it a lot. Thats why I think it is so important to look closely at the application of new technologies that increase speed AND control to levels never imagined only a short time ago.
Many of the old wives tales are still ingrained in people because of the overzealous promotion of poor designs. The Trident Class and other early multihulls were a disaster for the multihull cause.The difficulties experienced by any beginner trying to sail a conventional rc multihull in a breeze that is a piece of cake for his club mates in their leadbellies is a frustrating disaster for the new multi guy.
Its a combination of factors, to be sure, but there exists technology today that can turn that completely around.
Fullsize multihulls are very popular and the rc boats can be too with a little ingenuity-but you can’t just say “here it is and it’s been here all the time” Bull-that just won’t cut it.
Matt’s restrictions are unfortunate BUT even if you want to try to do it his way there is a lot more work to do…the masses don’t know a thing about their boat…

edt:sp
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

53

so a very easy question:
Can YOU produce a beginner/entry multihull with whatever technology you want for 400$???

I even help YOU: its “YES” or “NO”!
If (grin!) its a “NO”…then you shouldnt post on this thread!!..I thought you didnt have time! seems that you still have some [;)]

Wis

/if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!\

_/<font color=“red”>The “hostile” one </font id=“red”>[;)]_

http://wismerhell.esmartdesign.com/index.htm

54

Doug

You missed my point completely. The masses might not care about new technology, stability, or speed. Take me for example; I don?t like corvettes, and there is nothing Chevy can say to change my mind.

So the question seems to be why aren?t more people sailing multihulls.

Some Possibilities:

  1. they don?t want to sail them.
  2. they think the current kits are to expensive
  3. kits are hard to come by

-Dan

55

As I said at the begining of this topic-I’m not sure but with a little help from friends and aquaintences I hope to find out: it is a worthy goal even if it turns out to be unrealistic. Easily achieved goals don’t mean a whole hell of a damn lot…

Dan, don’t believe I did miss the point of what you said:more people aren’t sailing multihulls because of a preconceived notion regarding their performance on the one hand and on the other hand they may not believe that anything can be done about it. I believe the right equipment would make a dramatic difference in participation over a relatively short time.

One other thing Peter and Dick: if you don’t grasp that there is a problem how can you possibly fix it?

edt:ad info
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

56

Doug

Now how do you know what ?preconceived notions? people have? Last time I checked your name was Lord not GOD.

People might have to deal with the fact that multihulls aren?t ever going to be as popular as they want them to be.

-Dan

57

Oh Lord , Dan: didn’t mean to give the impresion I was , well you know…
I have been sailing rc multihulls for years and years ;I 've talked to dozens and dozens of people and yes ,Dan, many ,many of them have preconceived notions about multihulls.
The number one preconceived notion ,which is natural, is that the only reason to buy a multihull is for speed: that is true as far as I’m concerned. But it’s followed up by(in no particular order):

  1. speed in a straight line
    2)won’t tack
  2. won’t beat a mono around a triangular course
  3. you’ll spend all your time recovering from a capsize
    /pitchpole

and with my boats:
5) it costs too much

This kind of stuff can be dealt with but not by doing the same old thing that has been done the last thirty years by countless multihull promoters: the character of the beast must be changed! And can be…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

58

I have one question for your MR LORD, why is it that you think that the boats we have developed over here are so bad?. You have never seen them sail. You have seen pictures of the boats. I am the only person who has described on here what we are doing over here to great detail. Yes I know that another member of our club has made comments on here, but he has since told me that to continue trying to encourage the multihull cause via this media is fruitless.

R/C Multihull’s have one main opposition. Finding the few people in the population that are interested in them.

20 000 000 approximate population, of those
1 000 000 people interested in sailing, of those
5 000 people interested in sailing r/c boats, of those
500 people interested in racing r/c sailing boats, and of those
50 interested in racing r/c multihull’s

These figures are approx, but the percentages are pretty accurate.

We have 30 registered boats that don’t always race but they are out there. These boats don’t race all the time for a number reasons, boat control is not one of them.
What we have to try and do is get these people back and that takes time. We also need to try and attract some monohull sailors over to the multi’s. I have had some that are saying after the IOM worlds they will be looking at the multihull’s as “they look like fun”.

Why is it that France the UK and Australia can get fleets sailing but the US can’t.
None of us use these high technology boats you keep saying need to be used. Tried and true designs are used and developed. Strange how that development hasn’t gone the way that “ONE LONE VOICE” says it has to go.

Personally I think that other people on this forum that don’t currently sail r/c multihull’s would/could be more interested if YOU would stop with all this technology crap that YOU SAY is needed to sail competitively with control.

Yet again I try to get a point across…ah forget it.

Peter

59

well, in France there is more 2m than mini40 (something only 2 or 3 on regatta)

I’m a beginner and mini40 is for me :
-too expensive
-too big for my little house and little car
-too difficult to build because of importance of weight (difficult to have a good mini40 with balsa and others lows techs)
-too difficult to sail and needs to known swimming (difficult in winter)
-and not a lot free plan on the web
I will try to do a “mini28” (82 cm) for my own pleasure with balsa and fiber glass !

60

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

One other thing Peter and Dick: if you don’t grasp that there is a problem how can you possibly fix it?
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Doug - WHAT IN THE HECK ARE YOU ASKING ???

WE (Peter and I and a few others) AREN’T SAYING THERE IS A PROBLEM - YOU ARE !

As far as I am concerned, EVERYTHING negative you have posted in your zeal to impress the readers is just plain bull s h i t!

Designs are available - both free and for sale
Boats have been built and are sailing based on those designs.
Not one (1) foil multihull has appeard in a public, sanctioned regatta (anywhere).
(Feel free to post photo if I am wrong)
Costs for a 1 Meter multihull are proven to be just over $200 less radio gear. (see recent posts) proving the entry can be done in some cases at less cost than a monohull !

So for me the only two problems I see are you and your constant “solutions” which don’t exist for anyone to purchase (F-48/MultiONE/Mini40) and the fact that some people that are interested in buying a made boat that isn’t expensive - they don’t want to build.

As far as types of participants, you know I sail both full size monohulls - from (19 foot Lightning, to Laser, to Force 5 to crew/skipper on a Swan 45 owned by a close friend) I also crew (not regularly) on a Melges 24. I have sailed the following full sized multihulls (Hobie 16 and Hobie 18 @ North Americans, Prindle 16, Sizzler 16, Supercat 15, 17 and 20, NACRA 5.2, 5.8, 6.0NA, and my 18 Square, an Inter 17 and an Inter 20 and crewed on an RC27 . Along the way I had sponsorships for the 18 Square from Michelob Beer and Fujitsu Business Communications. In addition, many of the above were sailed on behalf of a factory dealer.

I feel more than qualified to speak as both a monohull and a multihull sailor. Each provides it’s own satisfaction. Each provides it’s own (and unique) set of tactics and tuning. Which do I like best? The multihulls, mainly for their speed. Which do I like least, any of the bigger monohulls, where I must count on others to do their tasks. As a singlehanded sailor, I enjoy calling all my own shots.

So what ? - well, I am happy to be in a smaller multihull group. We are special, we may be renegades, and we may be seen as people who don’t take racing seriously (until you happen to join us). We enjoy beaches and beer, not blazers and yacht club “stuffiness”. - now there is a preconcieved opinion !

Do I intend to convert all monohull owners to multihulls? Heck no. In fact keeping the multihull fraternity rather elite is fine with me. I am here to demonstrate and provide information to counter all of your claims… and prove that you don’t need a lot of money, high tech ideas to enjoy fast sailing. I am here to inform new sailors, that smaller rigs, and leaded keels for learning are acceptable. I am here to educate potential owners how they can save money by building their own boats - by providing plans, photos, information and contacts of others who HAVE done it. If it works out that there are 20 of us, we can consider becoming associated with AMYA - but I also am approaching the NAMSA organization to introduce multihulls to skipper/owners who know the fun of multihulls. All of us beach multihull sailors have gone swimming at least once in our racing careers. So What? Not tipping over is like saying you never had an accident while racing a car !

Now you can join in advancing the effort - or you can continue to post negativity issues and try pointing to your technology as the answer. In either case, quite frankly I don’t give a darn - because pretty soon those who you feel are defending you will tire as I did when “nothing but hot air” comes out. And I do look forward to seeing your foiler F-48 or MultiONE on the water. Why? Well because it will be interesting to see if their sales take off like the F-3 Did(n’t) or if buyers even show up to race them -

I have offered solutions, costs, photos, and plans. You, on the other hand have offered criticism and hot air. Please go away until you have something worthwhile and useable to contribute.