Doug,
You want to help noobies?..great…How about a beginner guide on “how to sail multis?” ?
Wis
if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
I’m willing to listen to ideas.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
You haven’t listened to an idea or theory other than you own!
F-48 Platform - that is 48 inches x 48 inches.
An IOM “C” Rig sail - or if still to big for you how about a 36/600?
Man - that is half a sheet of plywood sitting on the water with a mast of about 60 inches tall. Remember, we are talking beginner here. Nothing would prevent a option to step a mast with 1400 sq. inches of sail on it instead.
How about some new ideas and thinking from you? As far as "Ready-To-Sail … you bill yourself as the Technology Guru and have built and sailed hundreds of boats, many of them multihulls. CAN YOU BUILD A BOAT FOR THE TARGET COST that meets the criteria? If not, say so, and we can end the post here and now.
I believe that a foiler can be built to meet or exceed the requirements set by Matt. It will take time and ideas and help from others but I believe it can be done.
And I believe it would be a superior beginners boat due to the exceptional stability.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Right, your not gonna like this Doug but… No foilers. I should have added this straight away. Yes, I understand they are easy to sail and are hugely quick, but; I think a boat that is hard to sail is a good thing. Yes it will put a few ppl off, but those that learn to sail the thing will find it very rewarding and will hopefully get hooked. Fullsize skiff sailing is like this, you see good sailors from conventional classes suddenly finding out what its like to swim again. But they they get it after a while and it all seems worth it.
These wont be boats for newbies, they will be for either experienced mono r/c ers or full size sailors looking for a toy to play with after racing. They should be more or less ready to sail barring r/c gear for that price, or a bit more with it.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
Matt
Earlier in this topic you asked for photos of the boats that we sail. They will be coming shortly. We have some photos already of other boats sailed by our members that will be posted. I am finally getting a digital camera(catching up with the times) and our South East Queensland titles are on soon, so photos and a story will be posted.
Some questions can be answered now though.
IOM sails were used by one of our members on his (mini40) cat in a blow(25 knots+).
Mini40/F-48 design allows for SMALLER sets of sail than the max, why not DOUG, tell new owners until they have mastered sailing there multihull’s to use there smaller sails, or is this a bad idea as well.
If multihull’s for the masses are to be built, then smaller rigs need to be apart of the process, or alternatively sell the boat with one rig(say 75-80%) with the guarantee that for X$ the A rig will be available on request.
There are places r/c boats are sailed where winds above 5 MPH are the exemption. Why then would anything but an old, outdated conventional designed multihull not be acceptable.
I am recommending to people new to the class to use the supplied B rig until they feel confident enough to progress to the A rig.
I don’t understand why you knock fibreglass and aluminium as an entry level boat. My original tri weighed in at (on the water) 4kg. The next boat came down to 3KG, and was still fobreglass and aluminium. The next boat is going to be further developed to be lighter again.
From our experience here boats can be to light. Super light boats and strong winds are a handful even for the most experienced sailor, so should never be considered for the newby.
Matt, my honest suggestion as the best starting point, would be for the new multihull sailor interested in building, to use the plans for either the
Snapdragon
Pulse
WRT40 or
Ghost Train
All of these are proven designs, and the plans are easily accessable on the net.
Personally I am upgrading molds so that I can mass produce the old variety narrow hulled boats, or the new wider main hulled boat.
Photos of these will be available shortly as mentioned earlier.
To simply explin the two
The narrow hulled boats are a modified Snapdragon
The wider hulled boat has something like a Marblehead shaped main hulled.
These boats will become availabe in two styles fibreglass and aluminium with two rigs but no radio gear and winch for $350AUD or Carbon Fibre for $500AUD.
Peter
Too bad about foils; too bad I didn’t know at the begining! But its Matt’s idea…
Serious consideration ought to be given to using reefable rigs: they work exceedingly well; they give the equivalent to A ,B and C rigs; they can considerably reduce costs and there is a 5 or so year history of usage almost every weekend to draw from…
Also, bent back “wing tip rigs” should be considered as well since they provide much superior gust response as compared to a pointy rig. Not only that but there is an adjustable upper outhaul as well as the standard outhaul for even better sail control.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<center>A few <font size=“4”><font face=“Stencil”>"<font color=“maroon”>Down Under</font id=“maroon”>" </font id=“Stencil”></font id=“size4”>boats.</center>
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Peter - I would have posted the others you sent me, except they are on my work PC! (sorry)
Let’ see, that is seven (7) boats from the Land Down Under, - all of which have been successfully racing for a minimum of 4 years. And how many do we have racing here in the U.S.?
Great to see you guys spend more time building and sailing your boats, than continually analyzing them. I think we need more “Shop Time” and less “Theory” time up here.
Dick
Down Under refers to both New Zealand & Australia.
I beleive that photos #3 4 & 7 are of NZ boats.
Some more photos of our boats. These were taken on two seperate days, the titles last year and a club day early this year. Unfortunately both days were drifting conditions.
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Some more photos. (some were supplied by Graham Turk, a local IOM sailor that lives in the estate surrounding the lake)
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This boat is owned and built by the current club commodore. It is a snapdragon design and was home built. The sails were also built as a practise set, to see whether a new idea would work.
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Another snapdragon. Built by the owner with assistance from the commodore. It is the current club champion.
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The above boat is the Pulse design. In the right conditions it goes really well.
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This boat is the current design that we are all looking at either building or using as a guide for development. This one was “thrown” together in about two weeks, which explains why it looks rough. The owner never uses a T-Foil rudder, and has had it sailing in 25knots+ with number 2 rig with no problems.
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This boat was built by a passed member but is included here as it is still around, and will probably be entered in the Titles next month.
As you can see all these photos were taken on light days, which is not the norm for us. I am hoping to post some really good speed shots(weather permitting) from our next Titles.
Peter
Yes - I realize that New Zealand (for whatever reason [:D] is included !!) Ha Ha !
My point is that you fellows may have a year or two edge on us up here - but have boats on the water. While their specifications may not meet with the approval of “someone” up here - it seems they are on the water and sailing. Perhaps they are even tipping over ! Ohhh - My heavens!
So while you (and the Kiwi guys) are sailing, we are dead in the water. One of our manufacturer’s insists the answer is foils and moving ballast, yet doesn’t sell one and (may) refund orders. The other manufacturer is selling kits, but we seem to have a lack of builders up here, so everyone that “might” be interested seems to be caught in a state of limbo - not sure if they should buy/build a “normal” multihull - or if they should wait for whatever year a foiler becomes available. Thus nothing is happening.
Also, a few of the pics include a few 2 Meters - just to show that even that class has boats sailing without foils or moving ballast.
One just needs to step back and take a look at what ideas are on the water, and what ideas aren’t. Then make up your mind if you are going to wait - or if you are going to participate. As the saying up this way goes, “Either s**t or get off the pot !”
Thanks so very much for providing the photos and sharing them with the rest of the world. To those who are contemplating, please note how many different people are using the same design and sailing the boats. “IF” foils and moving ballast are the “REAL” answer - someone might want to contact the owners of these photographed boats and tell them they are all wrong!
And no offense inteded toward the other half of “Down Under”! [B)][:D][8]
Peter -
went back and took another look - some are the photos you sent to me which are work.
Ummmmm- you know, some of those boats don’t look very “Hi Tech” at all, and none seem to have foils or moving ballast. How do they stay upright? How can their owners sail them? Doesn’t anyone laugh at you guys for using fiberglass hulls and aluminum cross beams?
Seriously, after looking one more time, I can see the start of the development/evolution of float design. WAY TO GO !!! (and thanks again)
Well you guys have done a great job! And in such a short time!
It appears that most of the boats shown meet the revised criteria posted by Matt on April 23rd-read that post!
And after you do that re read the original critria: the boat should be able to be produced READY TO SAIL by a competent shop for 250pounds($400 more or less); I would think that still has to be solved.
edt:add info
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Doug -
I’m sure you will correct me if I am wrong, … but …
There is a difference between the words “Should” and “Must”. Perhaps Matt was trying to set an entry cost for the multihulls to keep new owners from thinking they had to spend enormous amounts to purchase exotic boats?
A production shop “should” be able to produce the boats because of quantity discounts and production facilities, unlike the casual home builder who is willing to give up time and labor in order to save $$$$$
Maybe I am wrong, but I don’t read into the rules that homebuilts are outlawed. Quite the contrary, as it gives one a sense of accomplishment to actually sail something he has spent intimate hours building.
Well ,Dick, if you’re right then I guess this must be a wrap but -just out of curiosity-can someone in the know explain what has been accomplished here?
And how does this “new boat” differ from countless multihulls built over the last thirty years?
And more to the point: how does this multihull more accurately do what Matt was suggesting than the ones available last year or five years ago? Just curious…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Every picture shows a boat that has been built for the price suggested. The point being that lots of money doesn’t have to be spent to go sailing with a r/c multihull.
Just a query, if the americans are having trouble getting boats to sail, and there has been so many built over the past thirty years, where are they?
Doug you commented that the criteria is for the boats to be ready to sail from a competent shop. Are you prepared to build and release for sale a boat that is something like we have here?
Peter
you know what i see?
i see somebody who does not like the idea of a cheap boat. for the begginer. and whole sole purpose it to derail a very good idea. evryone here should be proud of want matt set out to accomplish. i for one would love to have a cat. for under $400. it does not have to be the fastest. but it has to work. i dont even know if i could handle a cat. but for $400 . i would like to give it a try
cougar
long live the cup
- I must be able to be produced in number by anyone with a professional standard composits workshop.
Production boat.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
Aussies have been building multis for years. The best ever fullsize multihull was a Crowther Trimaran called Verbatim. I built a 1/12 scale model of her years ago. She got renamed and hasnt sailed in a while but here are some pics. All up cost maybe $250!
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19 out of 7 people have trouble with statistics
Nobody has described to me yet what has been accomplished here; what part of rc multihull design has been improved as a result of this thread?
Peter, I would never(I hope) invest in the tooling for a boat that I thought would not be a significant improvement over other multihulls. This is Matts idea and I respect that , however, I think it is a BIG (for me)mistake to not use available technology to improve multihulls especially one for the masses. So I and a few others will work toward a boat that will represent a quantum leap in sailability( tacks well, points well, no or reduced capsize/pitchpole), increased speed and that is relatively low in cost.
Again, I think those that are sincerely interested in achieving a boat like Matt suggested might want to go from the picture showing stage to one where you discuss the DETAILS of how such a boat can be produced by a company at a reasonable profit for such a low retail price. It’s fun to see all the nice pictures but how are you going to meet the goals set out by Matt?
You have to take a hard look at what has been accomplished so far in this thread and try to determine if things are now better(design wise) than they were before the start of this thread and HOW ARE THEY BETTER?
Why are almost all the pictures in smooth water and no wind?
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing