That is something that sounds good to me. I am biased because, first off, the only boats people really sail around here are CR-914’s and a 52" boat would most likely put them to much shame. Secondly the reason I started even contemplating a build like this was for my own pleasure, with the expectation that it would be more of a daysailer than a racer. I guarantee she will turn heads and I guarantee once I get some practice she will be fast, since I am sticking with the KISS theory in terms of controls. I think we have made good progress for the first week or so and we are hopefully all flipping toward the same page.
OK Dick, you/ve tempted at least my front legs and thorax out of my cave!
Yes, I would like to play with look-alikes or mightabeens of the IOR ton cup classes. Snce all these boats were very heavily desgned around moveable, protoplasmic balance, any rule that is intended to miniaturise them must use moving ballast.
I cannot see that there is any virtue on the type of handicap racing being promoted in this thread. All it means is that everyone will eventually win. If I am going to devote a lot of money and effort to reporoducing a Farr Prospect of Ponsonby, I am going to drive it with all the competitiveness with which I drove the real one when I was 24. If I come last 'cos I got it wrong, fine. 'Cos it’s somebody else’s turn to win - wrong game. I think you’ll find that most people who are having an encounter with their past will think that way.
This means, among other things, that you need one rule and that it must be practical to measure to it. The last bit is VERY important. First, are you having a mathematical rule or a series of limitations? My preference is very much for the former and I cannot really see myelf getting enthralled by Volvo or Vendee Globe boats.
If you are taliking about formula rules, the useful historical things to copy are 1956 RORC, 1948 CCA, IOR and International, I think you can rule IMS out on the grounds of physical complexity of measurement. Yoiu would probably amend IOR to measure displacement directly - and so on. It’s fascinatiung, but a long way from gelling yet!
Not to put words into the mouths of people, but the concensus of those likely to “play” in this arena seem to favor looks over actual racing - which if true make me very happy because as an often critic of AMYA - we do little to encourage membership in the organization by non-racers. The way this seems to be headed, there is/may be a reason to now join AMYA if there is a division for scaled watercraft that sail. My reservations were for the guy who builds to a set of plans or his own “design” and has it fitted out like a real sailing vessel - but it only remains on a table, boat stand or at best it makes it’s way to the water for a photo session and perhaps a daysail. Somehow, I would like to see a “performance” requirement tied to a table-top model as while I am always impressed with museum models, I wonder how well they really would sail if one were to bend on sails and try a simple triangular course. Not to win by sheer size or sail area alone, but to actually have some sort of scale performance - (if that is even possible to judge).
While I think we may see some one-off versions, I do feel the class will migrate toward designs that have lines made available, or that someone has scaled and made a plug. I base this opinion on the simple fact of one of the provided French web links. My goodness - 23 pages of posts and probably 90% are requests for plans. Just think if all those requests would actually turn into real boats. What a class that would be. On the other hand, in those same posts, there really are only 4-5 boat designs and only two as I recall that are of 1:10 scale. For the guys interested in BIG boat lines, the Open 60 and Open 70’s are there, and for those whose desire to do 1/10 - but are limited in storage or travel capacity, there is always the 6.5 meter singlehanded boats to choose. Keep in mind the French photos too - in many cases only 3-4 boats are together for sailing photos! Where are all the rest?
I certainly would hate to eliminate a model of the 125 foot New Zealand AC Cup challenger due to it’s final waterlength size (maybe a scale of Stars & Stripes catamaran would have to be allowed to make it an AC Class rebirth) but how does one provide for competition between a 6.5 meter singlehanded boat (21 foot) and an 80-100 foot maxiboat? Or don’t we?
By the way - I am suggesting that we consider an option of putting one’s money in place of their mouth. Make a mandatory entry fee required for pre-registration - refundable when boat is on the water. This will eliminate a lot of the “talkers” who may/will influence rules while not taking part in the actual class. I base this suggestion on recent issues in another class where a lot of forum space was devoted to arguments and comments by some who are/were not class members. I personally don’t want to have the class ideas swayed by those who won’t participate in the end. A US $50 - $100 owner’s registration should make it clear it is a serious class effort. Put down your money into an escrow account, add your opinions, vote on the rules/direction, build your boat, get your money back. Obviously, if this were in effect right now, many of the already made comments - mine included - would be meaningless. To date I believe there may only be 3-4 folks who have something in place to warrant membership and commenting rights. This is not intended to rule out any who may be “asking” about the inclusion or exclusion of a rule - it’s just a real hard-core way (perhaps blunt and not politically correct) of telling someone that if you want to participate - then ante up and join or remain on the sidelines with mouth shut.
The other comment I make - and not to be taken as a personal issue - but having a person directly receiving benefits as a supplier but helping push class rules development seems to be a conflict of interest - at least to me. It’s like having a sailmaker being on the group to determine one-design sails and who can build them. This is very evident today in a certain inland lakes class where the one class builder has received a challenge from a new builder and has created all sorts of turmoil within the class from a legal perspective. While an owner as supplier has every right to be involved in helping the class to develop and grow, there has to be restrictions on his/her participation on a class committee or elected position and direct input into class rules. Just something to consider as we move forward.
Well in an effort to keep from building the same boat twice and having a boat in my “quiver” that is just too big for my transportation capabilities, etc. I am still going to be building a 1:10 boat but it will be of the 36’-40’ variety producing a boat in the 42"-48" range. I think this will allow me to have a sailing boat that fits the class sooner than a 1:10 TP52. Thats not to say the 1:10 TP52 will never get built, but why do I need a 52" and 63" boat of the exact same design, I DON’T so I won’t. I’ll be busy the next few night trying to narrow down a candidate while I await the arrival of my laser cut shadows for my 1:12 TP52. Just thought I would let you guys know.
Dick,
I think personally a dedicated 1/10 scaled Class could in theory be potentially one of the largest Classes on the planet if only taking in the current OD fleets, Etchells, J24’s, Melges 24’s and 32’s, Farr 40’s, J105’s and the list goes on.
One of the massive positives that has proven to ultimately show up the success of any given Class is it’s support, personally this is one aspect that would encourage “would be” builders to take the next step and get involved in my opinion.
If a supplier of say deck fittings or Scaled Masts wishes to become involved with the Class, then kudos to them as realistically they may supply parts or fittings that I don’t have to spend time or expense in sourcing. We must always consider ways to make a dedicated Scaled Class viable and accessible on many levels.
With respect to Handicapping 1/10 boats, I’d say it’s probably not an issue until you have enough boats to provide competition. I’d be happy with a LOG Course, that is start, sail a designated course, and finish, with completing the course being the only criteria, the rest made up of your boats display and “Lifelike” qualities.
I’m sure all of us has at some point wondered how many Museum ‘Static’ models would actually sail, and whilst I’m not going to demand anyone to go to those lengths, a “user friendly” scaled boat is as I’ve always maintained, something quite special to witness sailing.
I remember years ago watching a scaled replica of ‘Windward Passage’ sailing around Narrabeen Lakes and taken in by the sheer awe of seeing it in full cry bashing it’s way into a viscious little chop. The replica used an EC12 as it’s base, and in the water one would never know the boat had a full keel.
I think what is required initially is a general acceptance and confirmation that a 1/10 Scale is the International Class base requirement, that way potential owners will have confidence in their decisions to start building or sourcing their new Boats.
I’m only too happy as possibly one of the first to have a Scaled 1/10 boat already sailing to throw my hat into the ring and offer to be a Representative for the Class here in Australia. Obviously we need to get something formal to present to all of our respective National Authorities in order to become a recognised Class, then we can set about promoting the genre in earnest.
Quite exciting all of this guys, good stuff.
Interesting HcW - and what a strange thought you brought forward !
Here in the US, there must be a minimum of 20 registered boats within the US in order to be recognized - a feat able to be done when boats are available off the shelf from hobby shops or (semi) production builders, but much more difficult when boats must be home built.
Thus looking at this from the outside, I see where an “international” class makes more sense to start this class effort than a national class - only because of the “numbers” game. A view from the inside does reveal issues such as national authority resources needed to support and promote boat classes of only a few boats. Here in the states we have an “Open” class which essentially is a catch-all for boats not having the magic 20 to form their own class. Drop below 20 registered and the class is removed from support.
I believe we ( collectively) face similar numbers, and only wonder why worry - let’s just build, but if any desire is wanted for official recognition, perhaps we need to agree to the basics, form internationally as a class start-up, and then when time to split off, provide for local/national rules if so desired, but making sure they don’t conflict with the nationally agreed ones.
Suffice to say, I think I will cast my hat into the ring for a 1/10 entry and since the wife made me sell the big catarmaran, this build in the garage will easily take it’s place - and probably without an increase in cost. Hmmmmm - that means using my old cat, my current 1/10 budget is $5,000 (US) or if I used a new “A” Class cat, I could bump the budget up to around $21,000 (US) -
Oh My!!! I’m not sure I can get that level of budget authorization! Ha Ha !
I can hear her now … :censored:
:mes::splat:
Please sirs,:bouncy: can I put my two pennth worth in?
I would go with the notion expressed that the first priority in any new class venture would be to get boats on the water.
I would suggest that the nature of participants in such a class as you propose, is that most would be primarily builders rather than racers.
So all this talk of racing and handicaps of various types is more a turn off than a turn on, for most.
Perhaps a class such as this does not need to be based on any sort of “competition” at all.:shake:
The research, planning, tinkering, idea swopping and building, are the enjoyment pluses of such a class even before it gets launched.
The actual sailing is a small part of the enjoyment for many.
Don`t get me wrong, any boat built as part of this class must sail well or else why not just build a museum quality yacht that will never get wet.
What I am trying to stress is that a large number of people within the model yacht hobby are builders more than sailors and sailors (windlers) more than racers.:propeller
So forget the racing, just get on with the building and the showing.
WINDLERS OF THE WORLD UNITE :zbeer:
That is the basic problem when you scale down (or up) something: will it still work? Sometimes, when something is scaled down, you will need to exaggerate the size of certain parts to keep the model functional (like for model airplanes.) I have an “Ocean 500,” which is a 19-inch scale model of a 12m AC boat, but it didsn’t sail that well. I needed to make new sails of a different shape, and a bigger (not to scale) rudder blade.
Probably the most important thing to do in the class is to select a design that will scale down and still be functional, unless you’re only going for looks.
It’s still great to see your model sailing. That’s what sailboat do. If you want it to sit on the mantle, build an r/c reclining rechair! :sly:
I think Ian has this right.
Seems to me that any racing of various scale type yachts would be strictly for the fun of it and showing the models off rather than pure racing.
I think it would be near on impossible to form a class rule that could encompass all these yachts so they could race together fairly.
If racing a scale type class is desired then I would suggest a home built one design…perhaps the lines for a sutible TP52 or similar could be made avalible.
minimum scale features listed,rules for the sail plan etc.
Then you can race them in a fair manner.
Building sailing and showing off models such as this would be great though,most full size sailors like to see models that resemble full size type yachts.
OK, I’ve had overnight to consider a few things and based on what has been said here, maybe the following might apply for a 1/10 Class:
-
Scaled boats in the strict sense are for show first, and race if at all second.
-
Entry is based on 2 Criteria
(a) ‘Design based 1/10 Scale’ ie the Real design exists and there have been Real boats built to that design, and effort has been made to fittout to scale.
OR
(b) ‘Open based 1/10 Scale’ design to be based on photo’s of the real design or boats may be Self-designed. Yachts must at least comply with a minimum ‘Scaled requirement’ ie…Winches, turning blocks, Tillers or Wheels etc…
I guess the main purpose of having a Scaled Class is to ultimately promote this genre of Model Yachting, if someone wants to Race (Seriously) there are any number of other Classes that would fit the bill.
These boats should be the ‘Centrepiece’ of any R/C Yachting display as they will ultimately atract the most interest.
I guess first and foremost, potential designers, boat builders and the interested Sailing Public should have a committed Scale Class to showcase and participate with their offerings, Racing if desired should be a “kiss” system with more attention given to the “Realness” of our creations.
Cheers,
HcW…
I’m pretty sure that what I’ve said previously should gel with Scale Modellers in general.
Racing is the last aspect to worry about if at all, it’s boats on the water that counts and to get that the Class needs some core basic rules.
A designated scale 1/10
Semi - scaled “Life Like” presentation of a known design, a self design or an off the shelf production boat (No Standard Class boats) suitably fitted out to 1/10.
Forget about any form of Racing for now, we need to concentrate on the Classes “Nuts and Bolts”.
Over to you guys.
[RIGHT]
[/RIGHT]
I’m pretty much in agreement with all who have posted - however, I want to throw out a caution (so I can say “I told you so” later) that moving down the path of building to 1/10 scale without any additional forethought could result in a “Footy” like issue - when down the road, someone wants to write rules.
It is much simpler now when only a few boats exist, than when there are a large number and all want to have a say.
I like the ideas put forth by HcW - but must ask the question that could be haunting us in the future - “1/10 of what”? I beleive on a different forum one of our posters suggested a 1/10 scale of a 1/10 scale of a military ship (hope I got that right) While I believe it was posted in jest - it may be a valid argument down the road. And - if one brings an older IOM with a coach house on top - does that qualify as a 1/10 scale of a home-designed fabricated sportsboat concept?
To use an easy example - We had a heck of a time trying to agree on something fitting in a box and how it would fit - and that’s why I really would like to pin down some future rule ideas. I don’t care if you buiild to them or not - but I certainly don’t want to hear what was posted about the Footy - in that existing boats had items falling outside the rules eliminating them from legal class acceptance.
If nothing more - can we at least clean up HcW’s suggestions and at least include at what distance/venue the scale will be evaluated? Are winches, blocks, cleats, etc. intended to work? Is a traveller that works OK - compared to one that actually moves from side to side? Will there be issues of large hatches in the front of cabins from which spinnakers are launched, or does that have to be modified to “look” like an open hatch? Speaking of hatches and doors - must they open, or can their outline on a deck/coach house be merely an outline of the opening? I would love to be able to address these so someone showing up with non-working winches has just an acceptable design as one where winches actually turn.
Do you see where I am going? Is this going to be intended as a concours event, or one that judges the looks of a boat while on the water and sailing about 5 meters or so from shore ? Not only should the boat “look” like a real boat, but don’t you agree it should sail too? Otherwise, here come the “Mantle” boats who serve to be decoration in an office, study or living room.
If all are acceptable of the minimum directions provided, I can begin - but down the road, if I elect to do something that is questionable - perhaps a fixed asy spinnaker good for only one off-wind tack and not the other, keep in mind the cautionary note was posted here.
That said - let’s build and we can have fist-fights later. 
This spring when soft water appears the two different designed TP 52’s will race with asymetrical kites for one or two legs of a very long course. A boat of this design needs these sails. Of course what ever “part time” rating I come up will include “penalties” of using such sails. I will have much fun trying to figure this all out. Very willing to share how this will work. First gun May 15 2007. 10:00am
That was me, Dick. 
I got the idea from a picture I saw in Model Boats mag, I think, of a very large model of modern warship.
At least this kind of (confusion?) came up early, so it could be incorporated into any class canon later.
Dick,
In answering your concerns, possibly consider the following :
Eligeble Class Entrants Must :
Boats must be Self-designed or replicated based on a “Real” Yacht with maximum LOA no greater than 100feet (30metres).
Boats must be of the scale of 1/10 of a Real Yacht with LOA no greater than 100feet (30metres).
Boats must be if self-designed “realistically” acceptable as to be scaled up to mirror the real thing.
Fittings, Deckhardware and hatches must be fitted, however they need not work. “Static” fittings are encouraged where appropriate to the Real thing.
Oversize hatches to cater for spinnakers are allowed providing there is just cause to fit dis-proportionate deck openings. I’ve added this as Wildcard carries a 1.5sm Kite that won’t go thru and opening any smaller.
Boats complying with 1/10th Scale Class are only allowed 1 rig, multiple rigs are not allowed.
Boats complying with 1/10th Scale Class are allowed “Reefable” or “Reefed” mainsails and a choice of working headsail sizes.
Boats are allowed Spinnakers, Overlapping headsails and Gennakers.
Boats are allowed Canting Keels if used as part of the design on the Real Yacht. Self designed yachts may include Canting Keels that reflect the genre the boat was designed for.
Boats are allowed water ballast if considered an integral design aspect of the real thing.
Boats MUST be able to sail in a reasonable, unhindered fashion and show acceptable Navigation on all points of sail.
The rest I shall work on later today.
Regarding Spinnakers, for big boats that were not designed with an asym spinnaker pole protruding from the bow, will they be allowed in the design of the RC boat for easy of spinnaker launching and recovery. It can be something as simple as a carbon tube mounted to the deck, or as complex as having the exit moulded into the bow somewhere between the water and the deck. Or can it be some type of bow sprit that attaches so the boat in a way that when it is off it retains the “scale look” of the big boat. Just some thoughts I had.
why the 100 foot rule? i could see a Mari Chi being pretty cool…
100 foot ship scaled to 1:10 gives you a 10 foot model. That’s practical, less dominent in a field of smaller models, and shouldn’t require any special conditions for sailing.
It’s to your advantage.
Yours was the boat I was thinking of when I wrote my post. I’d hate to see a nice idea and a “class” leader be nicked for a non-scale spinnaker launch system. I think I might also add the spinnaker “socks” even though not on the real boat would be an acceptable alternative here.
Also, I would only suggest that should (???) someone envision a “J” Boat, I would encourage that being the only exception to the overall maximum limit. Not sure how many would appear at that size, but as a more than legitimate design, I would favor making them the exception to any maximum size rule. I realize the J boats are large already - but what a sight that would be !
The plans and project is officially underway for me for at least the hull. Hugo Boss it will be! I love those black sails !
Hopefully once the hull is completed, the scale hardware and equipment finish will follow. Initial thoughts are for a one-off hull of epoxy glass and either a wood or foam sandwich composite deck, deck house and cockpit fit-out. Somehow I don’t think a boat this size needs to have a fixation on overall weight - not that it will be a “pork chop” either. I currently have some feelers out right now for photos of the boat’s details which will be critical to the appearancce in the end.
that is very true Tomo, i didn’t think of that!:rolleyes:
Didn’t the J-boats get up to about 200+ feet long? Boats like Ranger, aendeavor and Rainbow had really long bow sprits, almostas long as the boat itself.