HCW,
I have the lines to the Elliot 6.5 if that is any help to you.
A mate of mine is building one…rather slowly though I might add.
I would have to draw my own plans for the Ross 780.
…
thanth
that is one realy nice boat. makes me think i am just a amature at this. to see art like that boat. wow. congrats:zbeer:
bye the way? you ever do a australia II or a nzl 32 black magic?
cougar
Time to get cracken’ on the rules, so we don’t wind up like the little class where boats were built before rules were drawn up. I willing to work on these, and would welcome any help.
Just a few ideas:
1/10 scale based on "real’ boats
Open for materials, development, or original boat plans, but model must be based on a real boat.
Unlimited number of channels - and multiple radios permitted if a lot of technology is used (maybe limit of two transmitters per boat)
No “Owner/driver” ONLY rule, but at least one person on radio myst be owner (this allows for syndicates)
We need to discuss maximum draft - since that will need to be altered from true scale
Unlimited weight - no minimum, no maximum
How about a owner’s registration fee - to keep it serious. Maybe return fee upon completion of boat using - Registration for pending build - and final registration will allow return of the money (will also keep out those looking for free questions or plans)
More to come - just want to get this started…
Oh - grandfather all boats currently at this size and sialing (photo proof) to cover HcW and owners of his built hulls.
Comments ?
EDIT: Sponsorship allowed and encouraged !
more french inspiration.
check out the photos, and construction areas:
Dick,
How do we race a 1;10 scale model of Alfa Romeo(super maxi) against a model of a typical 8m sport yacht?
some kind of model IRC handicap system?
I’m hoping for one of several options -
- HcW and a few others have hinted at handicap racing. In the back of my mind, I can visualize a time-on-time handicap, based similar to a bowling or golf league method of establishing and maintaining a handicap. Basically, the largest boat is the scratch boat for the event. Times must be taken for all participants (would assume this to be less than 25-30 boats total). Using the actual times from the first race, a handicap time is awarded each boat in the amount it would need to cross the finish line at the exact time of the big scratch boat (being a tie).
This handicap is then carried forward through the regatta series, with slight adjustments made to prevent “sandbagging” - and (perhaps) the handicap is based on only the last three races - as the forth race is run, the first race is dropped. Alternatively the handicap could be one that stays with the boat for the entire season and only varies a small amount. Like big boats, some forms of measurement may be required to assure weights and gear don’t change - example: first race of season without spinnaker has to be modified when the boat starts sailing under spinnaker. Like all forms of handicapping - there are options and each has it’s pros or cons.
-
Another thought is to ask our AMYA president to discuss with US Sailing since we are under their overall direction, and ask if ISAF or US Sailing will provide any formulas or suggestions on a handicap system. after all - seeing as how they want to rule the worlld, let’s see if they will actually do something positive for the sailing community of small r/c boats. (I am not a fan of US Sailing or ISAF - but acknowledge their importance … it’s a personal thing). Ummm no further comment on my opinion here.
-
A final option also considered is the racing of boats with waterlines of or within a percentage length of each other - thus - 30 to 40 inch boats race together, 41 to 50, 51 to 60 and so forth. Probably have to factor in some general weights, and sail areas to make this work.
There is no really easy answer and all ideas will take some heavy administrative work to get set up (along with a lot of bitching). I could see however where some internal one-design classes could evolve - say everyone with a scale model of a Farr 40 as example. Other classes will become dominant simply by what plans are available (all 1/10 scale IACC boats as example - or all Open 60’s would possibly have enough numbers to form their own fleet.) Finally there will be those sailors/owners with the financial means and desires to campaign a super-maxi and quite frankly I haven’t given thought how to fairly handicap them.
Hmmm - haven’t done the math - but would 1/10 of the IRC/Portsmouth/PHRF numbers of a big boat translate down to a small rating? Good question to ponder.
Brett thanks for the great question - makes one think a bit. Others with ideas or opinions are welcome.
No reasons why a take on IRC as a guide for Handicapping wouldn’t work, after all if the Model is scaled in theory the IRC Number given to the “Real Thing” may just translate into a guide for the “Mini Me”.
I should imagine that the 30-40 foot scaled bracket will be the where the heat is on with respect to numbers, as outdated IOM’s could be scaled to fit into this sector, effectively giving them another life.
As for collecting a more effective gauge on giving the “Right” handicaps prior to a Regatta, have each boat sail 1 Windward leg, 1 reaching leg and 1 DDW leg, and collect the times. If there is any anomolies, ie skippers are hobbling the boats to get given a lower H’cap, give them no worse than the fastest H’cap rating in their chosen LOA range.
Obviously there are those that will shop for a better H’cap and might I say that since most Regatta’s conduct numerous Race’s to make up the Regatta, a “Floating H’cap” might be benefitial, and be made fixed after 60% of Races have been completed. One who sails slowly deliberately to obtain a low H’cap surely shouldn’t win the Regatta with 40% of the Races left to go.
I do agree however that for a Design to be accepted into the 1:10 class, there has to be some form of qualification, after all these boats by the definition of their Class should in the very least look like a scaled version of the real thing.
I’d like to put a Class name up for comment “1/10 Open Class” as that I believe is what the American AMYRA would call our fleet.
Set user friendly size limits with respect to scale, say 7metre (23") to a cut off at 30metres (100").
This Class I believe is excellent opportunity to build and sail your favourite design or Class boat regardless of its intended genre from Farr 40 to Melges 24 to TP52 to Nautor Swan’s, the option is totally up to each individual.
If someone is able to build a Super Maxi, then good luck to them, because with the cost aside they’d certainly be something else to watch.
I’m stoked with the interest though guys, this thread has been a hive of activity since it was started.
Well done to date, lets keep it going.Cheers.
HcW…
Excellent model of Rubin this one.
Brett,
Certainly interested to have a look at E6.5, we were only just talking about them over on SA.
I’d even entertain the thought of building a Ross 780, great boats and I’d reckon there are still plans out there for them.
Cheers,
HcW…
sounds like we could have some really pretty neat designs sailing around… hmmm, now i have to decide on a hull…:rolleyes:
A couple things I think we need to decide on, they may have been agreed to I just missed it, but want to make sure we are all thinking the same thing.
-Are we going to a scale look, or a scale design?
If it is a scale look there really arent any issues that can’t be handled by a simple rule or two.
If it is scale design, will there need to be proof that your boat has been scaled from a “big boat” design and are alterations to the lines allowed?
In my case, I took the lines that were supplied to me by the designer and scaled them directly, no adjustments whatsoever, is this going to be a requirement of the class. An idea I had, should a copy of the plans be provided to the class authority in order for registration to be valid. Unfortunately most of the plans will not be able to kept by the class, but I’m sure we can come up with a WRITTEN gentlemen’s agreement that the class authorities will respect the copyright rules that the builders have agreed to. I know I currently hold (3) TP52 designs that for each of them I have agreed not to distribute the plans or anything built from the plans. Just some thoughts.
Also in terms of draft I think the rule should be a percentage of the design draft, like 150% or something, nothing too out of scale, but def. larger than designed. For a TP52 that would mean going from about a 10"-11" draft to about 15"-16.5" draft, effectively increasing your righting moment by 150%.
Lastly, here is a scenario I have thought about. (2) identical designs that have been implemented in (2) entirely different manners. We’ll use TP52 just because they are easy.
Boat 1- All carbon hull, (2) channel, final displacement 12 lbs.
Boat 2- Construction not an issue, 3-4+ channels, Working spinnaker, allowing almost double the SA of Boat 1, but displacement is somewhere in the 25-30 lb range.
Will all these factors be taken into account in the “rating” otherwise we are setting up another class just like any other, that even though they look good, we are rewarding lightweight and therefore hindering some cool technologies, i.e canting ballast, spinnakers, adjustable backstays, overlapping jibs.
Perhaps I am wrong on this but,…I was told that a design sails best when she floats on her drawn lines.Thus scaled models to be built and ballasted to her drawn lines per plans.
I think this issue, when resolved and agreed upon may affect your example of the TP52’s you provided.
I always have been a fan of what I call “Stand-Off Scale” - which I sort of defined as “looking” to scale from some predefined distance.
Again - there are a couple lines of thought - one being a pure scale boat, wiith a close up inspection seeing small beer cans in the cup holders in the cockpit. At the other end would be a boat that from the side has a profile pretty much identical to the real boat, but as one moves closer, a lot of the tiny stuff doesn’t appear to ones eye, and the boat is set up primarily for racing - example: no wheels in the cockpit to snag a mainsheet, the spinnaker pole glued to the foredeck and no intent to use it, and obviously a lot of hardware left off to eliminate snags or simply breakage.
Then - somewhere in the middle is what I “think” we are looking for. Not a pure museum quality scale model, but a working model built to scale with some scale appearances. I don’t know how the fly-guys rate the scale planes that have lots of detail - I thought it was a point system or something. The viewable scale of a boat should factor into the overall handicap. After-all, if you are adding weight by carrying around carved wooden horse-shoe life-preservers, taking chances on snaging non-working deck winches, having stancions with life lines, - and still racing the thing, then there needs to be a reward for the effort, along with finishing towards the top of the fleet in actual racing. If “looks” is key and primary, then will it become a simple sail around without any actual racing competition? Or, as Millrtme suggests, will boats move to a “profile” scale in the interests of weighing less to win a more important race finish? Race finish or spectator voting with boats on shore and in cradles are the variances possible.
Take some time to look closely at the photos Nigel and others have posted links to. The one photo of the owner standing near the stern of his FILA boat seems to show turnbuckles at the ends of the lifelines around the deck. I’m not sure we are suggesting this level of detail - but then again - perhaps? Maybe for the issue of scale “looks” - we include (ugggh…another rule) that requires a scaled point value when viewed from a percentage of the boats size… so if one has a 4 foot long boat - view it from 8 feet away and give points for scale from that distance. (example only) Points for scale are applied to overall handicap for final calculations and scale points would (by and large) stay the same from regatta to regatta unless the owner adds more “viewable” scale to the boat.
As for lines, I am torn between true lines - and those that are arrived from photos if lines aren’t made available. Say that someone is modeling a boat after something they truly like and that appeals to them - perhaps an old IOR design 1/2 tonner, or ??? - if all they are able to find are photos, and they can build as close to scale as the photos - is it fair to exclude them. Maybe, as Millrtme hints - a series of photos of the original boat to use for comparison - not just of decals and paint jobs, but also of major deck hardware - it all "could’ be considered.
As I mentioned - building an OPEN60 without canting keel and working spinnaker is how I would start - but excluding the boat because of those building decisions would not be helpful to get more boats into the class, even though some would opt for those technologies right out of the gate. Potential for improved performance versus added weight of gear to make them work - isn’t that what current owners of bigs boats are faced with when commissioning a new design? Do I opt for the potential failure of a canting keel or hope for the expected performance of one?
I guess without a lot of thought, my knee-jerk reaction would be to be build the boat to scale appearance but WITHIN the 1/10 scale basic size and based on a real boat. Thus a 1 Meter “dressed up” to look like an IACC boat would not meet the very basic of rule requirements. Am I saying this correctly?
Dick,
Before all the discussions of this possible class my idea was to build a boat that visually reflected a computer rendering of a yacht, some deck hardware, but no life lines and such and no crew. Here is a link to a pic of exactly what I am talking about. http://www.ceccarelliyachtdesign.com/img/highlights/tp522.jpg
Now in terms of boat lines here are my thoughts and concerns. I know that the plans for some of these multi million dollar super maxis will never be available and designs can be created off of some basic dimensions that will offer a scale look, BUT as I sit here and look at my USOM, if it was scaled up to make it in line with a 1:10 scale Alfa Romeo, it could pass. It would be long and relatively narrow with the max. beam being somewhere in the 65%-75% from the bow. This then turns the hull back around to exactly that, THE DESIGN. I think they way we will make this class grow is if we keep the hull design side out of it. Not everyone has the ability, desire, or drive to design their own hull. If we make it as simple as finding a design you like, talking to the designer to pass along the plans and scaling it, I think that would make it much more desirable and appetizing to more people. That being said it will also keep the Super Maxi designs out of it completely. There needs to be a limit on much freedom people have in “designing” their boats, rather than copying existing boats. Maybe it will be a voting thing during registration, it will could be required to explain how the design was realized if the plans are not available. Just some more thoughts, trying to keep this from becoming a design driven class like IOM.
I would not be prepared to build to this class if handicapping were to be on an observed performance basis. Stick around long enough and you will get 1 * 1sr, 1 * 2nd, 1 *3rd… This is the recipe for ant-excellence. Sorry folks, include me out. If I’m a dog, I want to come in last.
Angus brings up a good point, if I correctly understand what he is saying (or better yet his thought process). If handicapping is based on the performance of the boat that essentially is based on the skippers skill, while there will be ways to take care of “sandbagging” if a skipper is just perpetually slow he gets an advantage that his boat may not deserve. I think the handicapping should be based purely on a formula that only takes into account constants (i.e. visual appeal, length, width, sail area, draft…etc.) you get the idea. Do you all agree?
Angus- Am I on the right track?
Whilst I like the idea of a 1:10 scale boat, isn’t it a little un-realistic to assume there will be a rating system that will allow for even racing? I mean think about IOR, IMS etc for full size boats. They never worked and often produced boats that were slow through the water but fast on handicap. Whether the scale is 1:1 or 1:10 aren’t all the same complexities and issues going to remain? Add to this the interpretation of what is “scale” and what is “scale-like” and I think it would be virtually impossible to police.
Heres how I see it
The hull must be built to the lines of the actual boat…stand off scale ok for all the deck layout etc.mast and rig scale in profile. draft increased by an agreed upon figure.
Problem with this is in getting line drawings of the boats to build from.
If the lines don’t have to be that of the actual fullsize boat the class has a fundamental problem…in that I can draw my own lines in a more model yacht like manner.Who decides when I have gone to far?? to hard.
handicaping…I won’t play in any handicpaed or rated class…sorry guys far to many problems in this area.
I would however play in 1;10 scale models of a modern class rule if the rules don’t look like I could run a bus through.
cheers
Brett
OK, I’ve had overnight to consider a few things and based on what has been said here, maybe the following might apply for a 1/10 Class:
-
Scaled boats in the strict sense are for show first, and race if at all second.
-
Entry is based on 2 Criteria
(a) ‘Design based 1/10 Scale’ ie the Real design exists and there have been Real boats built to that design, and effort has been made to fittout to scale.
OR
(b) ‘Open based 1/10 Scale’ design to be based on photo’s of the real design or boats may be Self-designed. Yachts must at least comply with a minimum ‘Scaled requirement’ ie…Winches, turning blocks, Tillers or Wheels etc…
I guess the main purpose of having a Scaled Class is to ultimately promote this genre of Model Yachting, if someone wants to Race (Seriously) there are any number of other Classes that would fit the bill.
These boats should be the ‘Centrepiece’ of any R/C Yachting display as they will ultimately atract the most interest.
I guess first and foremost, potential designers, boat builders and the interested Sailing Public should have a committed Scale Class to showcase and participate with their offerings, Racing if desired should be a “kiss” system with more attention given to the “Realness” of our creations.
Cheers,
HcW…
HCW,
Very well stated…
For my business this is my top priority.I believe this effort will attract more big boat sailor’s to get interested in this sport. Many will benefit in a variety of ways and the greater the chances of a good return for those who invest.
DJD