I stopped posting on here becase the place felt dead, but then came back because there were a couple of interesting threads. I’m thinking of building a proa speed machine along the same principles as sailrocket, I’ll probally post some stuff about that when I make somthing to look at and have some renderings etc. Thats if anyone is interested anymore.
I tried with the multione, we have two in the uk, It wont go beyond that though as I and the owner of the other boat dosn’t have the time.
The idea for a small canting keel boat died becase people were too busy attacking one another, my boat still sails and is alot of fun, too bad not many others have such a toy.
But keep dreaming Ernst.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
Well Ernst,
I am building hydrofoils right now that I plan to fit onto a 24-30" Hobie Trifoiler model. I am mainly trying to prove out a altitude sensing system and a altitude control linkage that will allow me to use radio control to adjust the flying altitude. If the system works, I may invest in some F48 hulls and move the whole system onto that platform.
I’m also working on some monohull projects including my rather frustrating US1M canting mast project as well as a movable ballast system for the RC laser.
- Will
Will Gorgen
hmmm, well our nightmare might not be the boats! maybe its not even your boats, time to THINK!
As for multis…a mini40 will SOON hit the Asian continent…first one overhere? might be
Wis
EDIT:
I remember a thread about a canting trainer and a entry multi, well it seems that both are born-dead…some people were really intersted in both of them, too bad!
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
Perhaps too much thinking and not enough doing … ?
Ernst - weren’t you the guy who advertised to sell Mini40’s and we promoted your sales (along with a young fellow in Washington who did a web site for you) only to find out you weren’t producing boats OR getting orders for an existing class? Wasn’t your original NIGHTMARE the boat that never seemed to get completed and shipped to Mark Baldachinno, and when it finally was shipped (after a lot of hassles - like Hoj also ran into), it was only pieces and not a complete ready-to-sail boat? - and now you want to introduce yet another class for consideration?
I don’t mind “dreamers” - but if you couldn’t sell boats for a class that existed - how (and why) do you think you can sell boats for a brand new class? Daydreaming is fine - but sooner or later reality has to kick in.
I hate to rehash a lot of old garbage - but the last I knew, Hoj in Hawaii is still waiting for plans or dimensional information so he could complete a few trimarans that you sent to him in pieces. Maybe - instead of trying to get new ideas and a new class - your first effort should be to get the boats out there that you (sort of) produced, completed and sailing? Then perhaps the next step would be to actually race your boats and prove to people that they are fast and can win races. Then the next step would be to build and ship boats (or kits) that are economical and affordable. Then (whew) after all of that - you could branch out to new class sizes.
I know your were involved and promoted a 3 Meter class for a while and nothing happened there. I know of only one 2 Meter boat here in the US (Jerry Grigg) and he has faded from the scene and didn’t event promote the 2 Meter through the AMYA so no others were built (that I am aware of) here in the US. On the international scene it is even more important to have and sail what others want - or are willing to build or buy.
This is why there was such an effort by Doug Lord and myself back in 1999 to try to clean up the Mini40 rules and have a worldwide standard - rules that had no contradictions.
I’m not saying the F-60 is a bad idea - and certainly nothing stops you from developing, building, selling or promoting the concepts, but in the end it isn’t you, or I or Kris Harig that will make or break the class - it is the availability and economically priced boats, and the willingness for people to purchase or build them and then race them to get others interested.
With the planned regatta next year for MultiONE and F-48/Mini40 boats, it sure would be nice to have some European and Aussie boats shipped over and have a few US sailors sail them to demonstrate how well they sail and how fast they are. Unfortunately, most owners aren’t going to fly in until an event becomes significant, and the cost to ship only the boat and try to find a local or US skipper will hinder that effort. Yet the invitation is there and you are more than welcome to bring a boat or two and compete - and try to sell your ideas. I would be willing to encourage a limited, open class event during the regatta where a handicap could be established to see how well the larger size fairs against the smaller boat.
But back to your post - it is grossly unfair to put any blame on many of us for our reluctance to embrace your ideas and a new class - the creativity is there - but it is being tainted by your past actions and the on-going saga of unkept promises and failed follow-up. Maybe the idea and class would be great - but until the multihull effort here in the US gets going, it is my opinion the idea of yet another new multihull class isn’t of interest at this point - until at least one class is represented in sufficient numbers. Heck - with a few exceptions, I can probably count on my fingers how many have actually “sailed” a multihull over here. And for a while, even I wasn’t one of those fingers as having sailed a multihull - something that was pointed out several times by an individual!
So you can continue to “dream” - and certainly you can talk about your ideas. But, as was very well discussed at this site a while back - many of us are still waiting for the oft promised “idea” laden multihull to emerge out of Florida. After a while, discussing ideas needs to lead to a prototype to see if the ideas work. In the case of the new F-60 - since you are in the area of the world (or closer to it than many of us) perhaps you need to “sell” your ideas to those who have had experience in sailing both the smaller F-48/Mini40 or the larger 2 Meter boats. For the life of me, I cannot understand why a boat of a size fitting between an F-48 and a 2 Meter would be that much better?
Maybe you need to post facts to clarify why the F-60 should be considered. At 1 foot larger (or smaller) I’m lost as to why I wouldn’t simply build a 2 Meter that is an accepted class of multihull? Perhaps there is something I’m not seeing?
[:-blindfold]
Hey Dick, Like the idea of sending over a boat to be sailed in that reggata of yours, because there is no way I can afford to get to it myself. Will have to do a few mod’s first though on my boat to make it look pretty, (or just build a new one) can’t have a untidy looking boat winning can we!!
I cant understand why no-one seems capable of building a decent, affordable muliti that actually works. Surely there must be a market, if somone can open peoples eyes to how much fun these boats are. It doesn’t have to be the last word in multis to blow every similar sized mono there is off the water. I wish I had a decent sized workshop and some spare cash to have a go myself.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
I agree with you Matt - Ian Sammis has come up with a reasonable package - pretty good looking design (although unproven in major competition) and at a price below many of the IOM boats - yet nearly a foot longer in length, much more sail area and much less weight ( which usually = fast) and no one seems to be beating down his doors to purchase a kit – or completed boat.
To be fair, freight costs from Europe to US or vice-versa are prohibitive as you are charged by size - not weight so a boat 1.2 Meters/48 inch long hulls, even broken down can be expensive to ship after you spend the money to purchase one.
Alternatively, buy an IOM at almost double the cost for a smaller, slower and obviously heavier kit but you have a heck of a lot of sailors to compete against. To me, this is the problem. If Graupner came back with the Mini40 Butterfly, my guess is that it would sell - but not in any great numbers than it did before being discontinued. Vacuum forming of thin plastic is a possibility, but tooling costs that can’t be paid for via profits in a short time will cause most to reconsider. Since home building is really the only way to go to keep it inexpensive, but a lack of serious builders and lack of competition - who will spend the time?
I built one - and am building a few more, and I expect them to be “freak” boats at local regattas, and even interested sailors still need to part with their money to make a significant change. I guess I am getting less optimistic about the viability of the class after nearly 5 years of effort, than I was back in 1999! I really thought (perhaps incorrectly) that there would be more people out there that would have a strong multihull interest - but as I noted … saying and doing are too different things.
Hmmm - maybe we need to have a cash donation to a central multihull fund, before we can post or discuss multihulls?
[:D] Just kidding!
Anyway, there have been enough hints and building tips provided (wood, foam or glass) and a sufficient number of FREE plans - but I’m not hearing from many who are building. And during this time I have tried to present a practical view - but it is disheartning to see posts from people who want to own a boat that has a probable value of $1500 (average) when done, but they balk at the $13.00 cost for a set of plans. Speaking of costs - I recall Ian was offering a Sterne swing-rig WITH sail as part of a multiple purchase package for around $250 - which was a hell of a deal at the time.
Ahh well - Ernst can dream about a new class of multihulls, and I can dream about “ANY” class of multihulls here in the US, and of course - there are some who can coninue to dream about moveable ballast or retractable foils, etc. - yet nothing means “squat” until “something” hits the water.
Current contributers here? Ian, Jack Ronda and I here in the US, Hoj in Hawaii (not the mainland) Peter Birch and group in Australia, Alan Hayes in New Zealand, “Beachbum” in Finland, Matt in the UK along with a couple of guys who won’t post (also from the UK) and Ernst in Austria. That’s pretty much the on-going interest that I’ve seen on several different forum/discussion sites. Oh … and soon a boat owner from Japan. So if this constitutes the hard-core multihull enthusiasts - man, do we have a long way to go.[:-banghead]
I am busy right now and don’t have time to read all the above post but Ernst I would like you to name the boats you have built. Twenty? You never finished a Nightmare, so you couldn’t have sailed one. What 48" did you build and sail. I don’t think the 36" is yours. I see two old boats the 2 meter and the Wavedancer this might be a 48". You quit replying here to my questions so I asked if you were willing to do it off line. ANSWER Not really. You said that you expected the Superslim to be done by now. I got nothing but three hulls and the x-arms. You never answered what type of rig and where it was supposed to go since you put the x-arm connection where the mast has to go. How am I supposed to finish. I can’t read your mind. You quit communicating with me again. What happened to the guy in Africa. You stopped helping him too.
and there we go again!
Ernst, you’d better behave…and WE ALL be cool (me included).
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
I’ve said this a few times before, but let me try one more time–Want to start a new class? Find at least five other people in one location to buy into your idea (whatever it is) and get them to build/buy boats and race together. Five people scattered around the US or the World won’t do it. You need an active group of racers in one place to start things off. You will amazed what flows from that start–kits, home builders, races, new clubs, etc.
But if you can’t find that core group, you do need to question the viability of your idea.
Dick
Maybe the key is to find out why people don’t want multis. In my case the one and only reason not to is the capsize problem. I usually sail alone and with no rescue skiff. If there is any possibilty that the boat will get upside down I can’t rescue it. If the shrouds break on my US1M it will drift to 16" deep water. I can get it with gum boots. A capsized multi would be in 4 or 5 feet of water when it stopped drifting. I can’t get to it in 40 degree water. An automatic self righting system (I want to stay 2 channel)would solve this. Any ideas?
Don
Don Case
Vancouver IslandHave a masthead float to stop it going turtle and only sail in onshore winds, or build yourself a rescue boat. Adding a righting system is too much compromise IMHO, all the ideas I’ve seen so far add lots of weight, windage or use another channel.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
well, I am going to use a masthead float and rc rescue boat…
cant tell now…wait and see
Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Don
Dick
Maybe the key is to find out why people don’t want multis. In my case the one and only reason not to is the capsize problem. Any ideas?
Don
Don Case
Vancouver Island
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Well Don -
the following is strictly “my opinion” and I can take the flames from others who disagree - but let me suggest - and it can be accepted or rejected…
-
Mast head float is a good idea. Looks “dorky” (in most cases) but even some of the big multihull boats use them. As noted - keeps from going turtle (mast down instead of up).
-
A fast winch to allow instant mainsheet control. NO - the cheap and inexpensive Hitech 725 won’t do the job - the HiTech 815 arm winch is fast and powerful - but also needs hull width - or arm must be above deck. Guyatt is the only other make I can think of - with a decent size drum for speed - but many will balk at it’s comparative cost.
-
Lead “training wheels”. You already have the beam (width) of 36 to 48 inches (Significantly more than <u>ANY</u> monohull) so nothing prevents the addition of a little bit of lead on the keel to slow down the thing’s reaction to wind gusts. NOT 6-8 lbs. of lead - but 2 lbs would more than help. Yes - it makes the boat slower and heavier, but … also slower to tip or respond to heavy gusts.
-
Finally - quit trying to be “macho” and start out with a smaller rig ! No where does it require you to sail with maximum sail area. (especially if learning)
Combine all of the above and I would guess that operator experience, skill and attention will be the major cause of capsize - no longer the boat! And after you have sailed and gotten used to the new found speed, handling and uniqueness - then start changing out the above to begin increasing performance even more.
OK - with that said - and following Roy’s observation/suggestion - we now have five boats all sailing in the same area of the country (or club)! Now what? Well, like most things, unless we one design the above suggestions - if you beat me, I might go to a bigger sail area. Then you get beat so you remove the lead to make your boat lighter than mine - and so on, until one of us reaches the limits of “<u>OUR</u>” abilities to handle the lightweight, overpowered speedster. Gee - we are back to boats that tip over, and - unwilling to really learn and gain experience sailing them, we might now take the “lazy” way out and revert back to a lead keel to keep our boat upright. That way we don’t have to pay attention and can let our minds (and thumbs?) wander.
Also to answer Roy’s point - it is imperative that several places (clubs) develop a class of boats so it becomes a national class - not a local one. Introduction and performance needs to be demonstrated and others might be inclinded to learn and think about trying one. Heck, even “old dogs” can be induced to give it a try - in the end, “I” feel it is an individual choice, and if you don’t want to put forth an effort (build, buy, try, learn, etc.) then it is much easier to step back and offer excuses or reasons for NOT doing it. I concede that it is YOUR (not just directed at Don here) perogative. In the end, all I can do is offer suggestions. Most solutions will help you to “LEARN” to sail one - but in the end - most will opt for the high-performance level - not the day-sailing level of performance. If you are the only boat at the club - and using the above suggestions you can still beat most/all even by weighing more then other multihulls elsewhere in the US or world, by having less sail area, what is wrong with that? Day sailing can be rewarding, it can challenge, you can learn and best of all it can introduce someone else to the class. Then once you get a couple sailing, the obvious “tuning” and performance upgrades/changes will take place on their own.
Back to the original post - we can all day dream, but there still needs to be a cost-effect option, a decent performing design, and a manufacturer (or parts assembler) to bring together all the parts for those who wish not to build. Stepping back from the “ultimate” in performance (considering you might be the only boat) there is no reason why you can’t make changes to the design to further improve stability if that is a major concern. Let’s see - we all have heard the horror story of an r/c multihull tipping over, and most have probably seen the photos of the Open 60 that turned over… but for those having/sailing one it won’t be a factor for getting out or stopping - it will just reinforce the need for experience, fast winches, and the understanding of how, when and why the boat will react as it does. Monohulls have their own issues, and if you really want or need to rely on 8-10 lbs. of lead weight on the bottom of the keel to keep you upright - I have no problem with your choice… but I also feel that if suggestions are offered it is up to you to try them until you can say from experience they don’t work. For a real “off-the-wall” example (and suggestion)… go ahead and build your F-48 but rig it with a 36/600 mast and sail rig. You might be surprised at what performance it still has, and also how resistant it is to tipping over. Hey - it’s a solution, and as noted, nothing requires maximum sail area ! In fact, having sailed my MultiONE now, this winter I hope to build a new set of sails - less sail area than maximum of 1100 sq. inches. and probably a pin-head to get power closer to the water. The fat-head is fine … but for light winds. Heck, even the “M” and “IOM” guys step down in rig size as winds increase - why not us? There is absolutely no reason an F-48 cannot sial in the same winds as an IOM. If they have a “C” rig - than so should we. Given lighter weight, we could probably downsize sail area even more and still be fast. Remember, there is probably a net weight difference of 5 or more pounds. Sure would be fun to see and try. Storm jib and small main on a 3lb. F-48 with a beam of 42 plus inches… with an experienced skipper on the Tx, it sure should “rip”…
Anyway - there are some suggestions. For those on the “fence” perhaps these will make the difference. For those not on the “fence” it won’t make any difference anyway. Consider the suggestions as “training wheels” - just like your first 2 wheeled bicycle… you can remove them (change them) any time you want to.
And keep in mind, there are several of us who are more than happy to answer questions - on-line or off.
And for Don … these are only my ideas. Some will agree, some will disagree. In the end, you will make the decision. Good luck.
Dick,
nice post, it makes me remember of another thread…I most enjoyed the “title”, remember, the entry multi for noobies!
There we go again and again.
Do people who want to begin sailing with a multi need a top-notch boat?..well I DONT!
Do we need a tri?..I DONT (I wont complain thought [;)]
Some personal reason why I dont “build”.
- no time
- no working space
- no skills
- no tools
- dont want!!!
An entry multi would be really great!
What WE need, someone who will build a CAT (I think its the cheaper way)…then just a little work (2 weeks or so), using an existing rig (IOM whatever…), that could be a way, or just me dreaming.
So, anyone there willing to “produce” that, but more important, anyone willing to buy it? (I would)
my 2 yen
Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
Wis, I would happily design a boat to fit that bill, and I’ll develop the thing for nothing. I think it can be done pretty easily. I would love to have a design with my name on it in production, looks great on a young designers cv! Now just find me a european builder and a US builder who will build the thing at minimal profit/cost price whatever…
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by wismerhell
Dick,
using an existing rig (IOM whatever…), that could be a way, or just me dreaming.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Wis -
-
not everyone is cut out to be a builder. But - we do need a few to step up to the plate and have an offering. What price is interesting? Hard to say, as most non-builders have no idea of time involved - or investment of tools and tooling! They shrink from purchase price as seeming too expensive.
-
<u>NOT</u> a dream!!! Take a look at MultiONE rules. Kris Harig and Doug Lord addressed a "Sportsman Class with lead keel and One Meter rig/sails - and then a “open” class with sails up to 1100 sq. inches. (About .89 sq. meters if I recall correctly) when they wrote the rules. Also keep in mind, the MultiONE can race in the F-48 Class !!! No minimum size restrictions!
By the way - my ego took over and I have since moved from a “heavy ???” glass over foam F-48 to a epoxy/glass (hollow) set of floats and hull ! I have no one close by to race against - but the foam just SEEMED TOO HEAVY ! [:D][:D] Oh well -
Dick,
We need to get a pro involved!! someone who could produce “tons” of “entry” multis…hmmm, thinking…not so many (self censored)…
maybe Peter from Climate? Peter? any thoughts about making a cat? [;)]
Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
hey John…please give us the formula how to count the “time in bed” we spent? [;)]
nice to see you back
Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
Unless your a student, then its half…
Luff 'em & leave 'em.