This is my first time on this forum and after reading through some of the messages that are posted, I, as a person who has progressed from the “dinosaur” sailing of the mablehead to the fast, efficient and demanding mini40 multihull class I only hope that the people who have come in looking for assistance, aren’t “put off” by the “crap” that is posted by some on here.
I have been sailing r/c boats for 15 years, and feel that it is a form of sailing that requires experienced sailors (of r/c boats) to help new comers as much as possible. The multihull class requires more concentration than the monohulls, but in saying that, once you master a multi you WILL never go back to a mono.
Their is, here in Australia one designer/builder that I know of who has the “stupid” opinion that his boats are the best, regardless of mono or multi. If people with that atitude wish to live in there own little world, and attack those of us that make negative comments on what they design and build, r/c sailing in whatever class will not last.
Forums like this need to be used in a positive way and not in the way that it is being used by some at the moment.
Eased Sheets, Peter
Peter, there are now two multihll builders (at least) here in the states and no one builder has proved better than the other and no one builder has claimed to produce the best boat. There are new technologies being introduced such as foils ,movable ballast and different rigs. But no system has proven itself superior to any other as yet-on a racecourse.
Much of the negative crap on this forum comes from people that have never experienced - first hand- any of the new techologies being offered(multi or mono)- I personnally love multihulls and the speed can be simply breathtaking!
I also believe that hydrofoils should play a major role in rc multihulls because more than speed they offer CONTROL— virtually eliminating capsize or pitchpole in all conditions. But foils have not been proven faster on a race course in rc multihull sailing in the US-their contribution may or may not prove to include greater speed-but fully submerged altitude controlled foils definitely offer benefits in control of small multihulls.
Welcome to the forum! Can you describe any of the innovations being tried in Australia and the results?
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Peter,
First welcome!
Lately, on this forum some “fight”, “attacks” were seen…yes its true…well talking about them is completely off topic, being justified or not is even a completely other discussion.[:-censored]
As for the help provided by the members, I can tell you (and for sure I am the most noobie guy around here) that they do help anyone…Every question I asked was answered soon with a detailed explanation…this forum rules for sure.
Anyway, I still think rc sailing should be fun…
Anyway, again welcome here…and do not hesitate to post, ask or answer (MY) questions…
As for the multihull…I cant wait till next winter!!!so impatient…guess patience is coming with age…Yes, me too am very intersted in a Mini40 or F48…
Wis
if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!
Hello Peter -
Simply comments, opinions and observations, Peter - nothing was ever “personal” !
Where are you sailing your Mini40 and would appreciate any photo posts that show details of your multihull.
Thanks in advance.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
… and no one builder has proved better than the other and no one builder has claimed to produce the best boat.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
From Windpower.
Posted: May 06 2003,16:50
Very soon in Marblehead, Massachusetts and Orlando Florida (and other points north ,east south and west before too long)you will be able to witness one of the fastest radio control sailboats on earth: the Formula 48 Class X3. ??Speed of the X3 on foils approaches four times that of a Marblehead. ?.The X3 is a breakthru multihull not just because it flies on hydrofoils but because it can retract those foils in an instant(about one second) which allows you to take advantage of a gust on foils then use our proprietary(patent applied for) Quick Trac? system to stow the foils when the gust passes!!!
?..You’ve got to see one of these incredible sailing machines perform up close and personal–there is nothing like the X3 on the face of the earth!!
$1850 ready to fly!
Posted: May 09 2003,15:19
He has purchased the X3 which is probably the fastest 48" sailboat in the US after years of sailing leadbelies. He feels the need for speed and has come to the right place and the ONLY place in the world ,as far as I know, that you can buy a ready to sail hydrofoil–microSAIL! The Quick Trac foil system is proprietary to microSAIL! and makes handling a small multihull a joy not just because of blistering speed but because of better control as compared to multihulls without foils.
In addition to my boat and Michaels boat microSAIL! is about to deliver two F48 D4Z Power Ballast System equipped catamarans to two guys living in Hawaii and going to school in Switzerland. Thats four F48’s from microSAIL! in a period of a three months—a clear cut concrete example of the tremendous interest begining to be shown in multihulls. These aren’t cheap boats --their quality and workmanship rivals any other manufacturer in the world and they represent the unquestioned technical leadership of microSAIL! in the world of small multihulls. Nobody ,anywhere can touch our proprietary foil systems and our Power Ballast System.
So for speed and performance around any course and the top in technology–think microSAIL!
I stand by those remarks today: ANY well designed Formula 48 or mini40 will beat a Marblehead; but I have NEVER made the claim that my F48 would beat anyone elses F48 though I firmly believe that a retractable foiler such as the X3 PROBABLY would beat a conventional non foiled F48 multihull.
I absolutely believe that retractable foil technology can drastically improve sailing performance based on my years of sailing conventional rc multihulls(over 40) and the many hours I’ve spent sailing and racing the F3 ,my first non retractable hydrofoil multihull(see video on microsail.com).
But the answer is not known for sure as I said earlier; the X3 has been delayed due to problems with other aspects of my business and is second priority now to the F100CBTF.
My convictions remain as strong today as when I wrote the material Greg quoted.
But there is MORE: sure I believe in my own boats but I believe in the technology just as strongly and have bent over backwards posting IN DETAIL how anyone could build an rc hydrofoil multihull. I have made numerous posts to explain this technology and the reasoning behind it and have consulted with many individuals to help them understand the technology.
But the technology does not mean just speed: CONTROL is at least 50% of the contribution made by a fully submerged altitude controlled foils. And when you add a retractable set of foils to the mix you can have outstanding speed and control in lite and heavy weather. A modern rc multihull should tack as fast as a monohull, point as high or higher and not pitchpole.
But above all the thrill of sailing these boats cannot be overstated: blistering speed coupled with excellent manouverability is a thing of beauty to behold. Acceleration that simply leaves you breathless and on a foiler the instant it hits the right speed an “pops” up in a split second on the foils!!! And more than doubles in speed! Races against larger monohulls where you finish before they reach the first mark!
High speed sailing with an rc multi is one of the most postive, uplifting, spine tingling experiences you can have in rc sailng!!
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Peter: Nice of you to post…Moving beyond the oft repeated claims and counter-claims that clog up this place, I was wondering if you could provide some sailing insights as someone who has experience with r/c marbleheads and multihulls.
Our club in New York City had the pleasure of sailing with a visitor from England this summer who brought along his multihull (I am pretty sure it was a mini40 tri). My observation was that when the boat was not able to fly a hull in our usual light and shifty wind it had trouble keeping up with the monohulls and that when there was sufficient wind to get a hull out of the water there also was a danger of capsize or pitchpoling. He also seemed to have trouble dealing with our crazy winds which sometimes shifted every twenty seconds. When the boat was able to fly a hull and stay upright it was a rocket. FYI, one of the things our visitor did to try to tame the boat was to put a t-foil on the rudder, didn’t seem to stop it from going over and created drag when the boat wasn’t overpowered.
So how hard are today’s r/c multihulls to keep under control? Do the boats sometimes go over during racing and how is that dealt with on the course? What is the current status of multihull racing in Australia (currently there is none here in the US)? What are the size and nature of your sailing venues? (It seemed like light and shifty sites weren’t the best place for multis.) And finally, any thoughts or history on the use of foils in multihulls? (I’m sure you’ve noticed there have been a lot of claims about them here.)
Once again…
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> Originally posted by lorsail
… and no one builder has proved better than the other and no one builder has claimed to produce the best boat.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> Posted: May 06 2003,16:50
… one of the fastest radio control sailboats on earth: …?..there is nothing like the X3 on the face of the earth!!<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail …but I have NEVER made the claim that my F48 would beat anyone elses F48…<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail Posted: May 09 2003,15:19
… the X3 which is probably the fastest 48" sailboat in the US … their quality and workmanship rivals any other manufacturer in the world and they represent the unquestioned technical leadership of microSAIL! in the world of small multihulls. …<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
This again is a typical “Doug Job”. His response to me, pointing out that in fact that the statement he made “…no one builder has claimed to produce the best boat…” was in fact not true, was turned into another promotional post.
I didn’t even have to look hard among the 1000 plus post that he has posted in the last two years to find these two. they’re just the first I came across.
Doug spent 2/3rds of his reply boasting about something he has never done, even when he claimed that “…Very soon in Marblehead, Massachusetts and Orlando Florida (and other points north ,east south and west before too long)you will be able to witness one of the fastest radio control sailboats on earth:…”
I?m sure that ?some? here might see this as once again an ?attack? on technology other then ?retro? monohulls or ?leadbellies? as some have called them. IT IS NOT! I am in the thinking and have been for a while about getting a multi for myself as I believe it would be a kick to try and sail it. What Roy says is interesting though. It makes me think ?.I?ve never actually heard anyone address such issues as he brings up. All I have seen are still photos of all these multihulls, but just how long do they look like that? Just how would they perform in our very typical northeastern US winds which are always shifting. I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who has had the actual experience of sailing a multi hull for a period of time.
Matt,
…oh, looks like Matt left …Oh well[:-blindfold]
V-light winds, big sudden gusts, small bits of water- all big no no’s. Very light winds will leve you struggleing to tack, big gusts will have you going wading every 10 seconds, small bits of water means damaged boat before long. Thats what I’ve found with my cats anyway, I think tris might be better to tack in light wind. Its a blast though on open water, and even the wipeouts can be fun (untill you realise the things stuck with its mast in the mud in the middle of the F***ing Lake again!) Go for it Greg!
(oh and sorry about the dissapearing post act, i didnt read all what you said…[:-paperbag])
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
Matthew: In light of your above statement, how does that fit with Doug’s blanket claim that “any well designed Formula 48 or mini40 will beat a Marblehead.” Seems like you are saying something different…
Generally, I think its seemingly overstated claims like the one from Doug above that cause problems on this forum. I was hoping to get some real info, instead up comes another promotional message.
Oh, and Doug how can you stand by the remarks that Greg quoted when the fact is that you never delivered the multhihull to the customer in Marblehead and you neither built nor delivered the two F48s to the brothers in Switzerland?
Roy, asked and answered;also refer to :“An Open letter to the Forum”(Pub section) and the referenced material therein…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
In reply to Roy’s earlier post <blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Posted - Jan 20 2004 : 6:19:17 PM<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
To Roy and others interested or just curious about r/c multihulls…
Here are some facts and observations which we have received during the formative year of 2000 for the F-48 Multihull Class Owners Association. These are based on email correspondence and also on experience by owners and skippers of the F-48 (and Mini40) boats.
We do not dispute or try to downplay the experience level needed to “play” in this class. These boats, almost all of them home scratch-built, or purchased from a few sole builders of low-volume production, are indeed NOT for the beginner. They are intended for and require an experienced level of builder and skipper. They are fast, they are lightweight for their size, and they have (by some people’s view) too much sail area for their physical size. Unlike a monohull whose stability is dependant on a lead keel, there is no lead on a multihull and attention must be maintained when sailing a multihull at all times. The mind cannot wander thinking about the lovely young lady sunning herself on the opposite shore. Experience with the sailing site, knowledge of wind conditions and water currents are required. Time at the transmitter definitely equates to far less problems on the water.
At the same time, there is truth to the facts about multihulls tipping over sideway sailing upwind, or pitchpoles downwind. The tactical ability/need of a multihull is no less than a monohull - but it certainly is in different areas. Generally, a tacking duel up the center of the course is the slowest way to sail a buoy race. Speed, and plenty of it, carried to the extremes of the course, where VMG overcomes actual distance counts big. Identifying small insignificant wind shifts that you would concentrate on with a monohull are dismissed on a multihull - although the ability to identify and remain in the longer shifts pays great dividends. The multihull skipper, unlike the monohull skipper, also pays a great deal more attention to apparent wind direction.
Here in the US - with the class being so relatively new, there has been little opportunity to sail either as a class - or within an open regatta - although as more F-48’s are built around the country, this is expected to change.
Yes - multihulls tip over sideways. And yes, they pitchpole. Often due to carelessness on the part of the skipper, but also because of the nature of the boat itself. While not impossible, few Marblehead monohulls pitchpole. yet that same rig on an F-48 platform, and this may be seen during gusts. Tipping to the side is usually strictly a skipper’s error - although technical problems, jammed sheets, bad electronics can also contribute.
As a comparison - and most can do their own math, an F-48 is most often compared to the Marblehead due to sheer size similarities.
F-48/Mini40 Class<ul>[li]48 inches LOA[]1400sq.in. sail[]48 inches wide[] 2-5 lbs. weight[/list]
[/li]
Marblehead Class<ul>[li]50 inches LOA[]1100sq.in. sail []5-8 inches wide[]7+ lbs. weight[/list]
[/li]
Since there have been no formal races between these two recognized speedsters, the reports generally coming in are based on experience and personal knowledge. If an owner relates racing local Marbleheads, it must be taken based on who is making the claim. Several short videos of an F-48 sailing in very light air are available and will be emailed to anyone upon their request. After seeing the light air performance of the F-48 it isn’t too hard to image performance when the wind picks up. Again - no different than an IOM, Marblehead, US1M or any other class, performacne is based on experience. Yes, the F-48 is a “special class” - but we take great pride knowing not “everyone” can be part of this elite type of sailboat.
As noted earlier - we don’t brag about crashes, but we don’t deny they exist, and are as normal to us, as broaching and nose-dives are to the monohull sailor. We just do it fast, with lighter boats, and (probably) in a more dramtic fashion.
Just so you don’t think we are afraid to acknowledge or show it:
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Hey - as they say … “Poop Happens!”
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by F-48 Multihulls
…The mind cannot wander thinking about the lovely young lady sunning herself on the opposite shore. …
Hey - as they say … “Poop Happens!”
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Well, I knew there was going to be a big problem with sailing these boats, but this is ridiculous! I’m sticken? to “lead bellies”!
[:-bunny][:-hearts][:-eyebrows][:-kitty][:-scared][:-smile_green][:-splat][:-knockout][:-sleep]
OK, just kidding. Besides the above, Great post Doug, thanks. I still want one of these boats and when the $$ comes someday (soon I hope) I will get one. Then I?ll go and kick Roy?s butt and show him what’s faster!
[:D]
Greg - I share your eagerness to show something besides “still” photos. I am asking Chad if I can post a MOV format in the files section. Until then, only still photos are currently available to be posted here.
BUT - I am emailing you a short video that plays within Microsoft Media Player - under separate cover.
In the meantime - from my files:
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I’ve been an evangelist regarding the application of foils to small multihulls because I’ve been fortunate to have experience with seeing how small multi’s behave with and without foils.
Hydrofoils make a high performance F3 docile in the sense that they eliminate the tendency to capsize or pitchpole. This can make a multihull as suitable for a beginner as ANY other rc model !
The reason this is possible is that fully submerged foils with altitude control develop rightng moment that results in speed but it also results in INCREDIBLE control allowing a properly reefed multi to be sailed by anyone in winds of twenty miles per hour with no fear of pitchpole or capsize…
The biggest drawback to foils has been the fact that when the wind is light a foiler that can’t retract its foils is a dog. But now an F48 can be built that has retractable main foils that can be deployed in less than one second! This eliminates the biggest drawback of hydrofoils and makes them practical on any rc multihull. And their use could be important in introducing new people to the sport since they provide: Thrills Without Spills"! Couldn’t help that but nevertheless its a fact: hydrofoils greatest contribution may not be speed at all it may be CONTROL-allowing anyone to experience the sheer exhileration of speed sailing on the water without fear of crashing and burning…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
I’ve been an evangelist …
The biggest drawback to foils has been the fact that when the wind is light a foiler that can’t retract its foils is a dog. But now an F48 can be built that has retractable main foils that can be deployed in less than one second! This eliminates the biggest drawback of hydrofoils and makes them practical on any rc multihull. <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>I’m beginning to wonder if there really is a Doug Lord or in fact are we debating with some type of computer virus that is starting all over again…
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Posted: Dec. 09 2002,08:54 on Windpower
“?.The problem with fixed foil/wand systems is the bugaboo of all foilers–up to now anyway: lite air and transitional winds.
In lite air the wand system deflects the flap on the main foils downward trying to lift the boat and causes a lot of drag; same thing happens in transitional conditions where the boat can only foil in the gusts; the rest of the time it is slow compared to a similar boat w/o foils.
Enter the new Quick Trac idea: the foils AND the wand mechanism are mounted on rotating axles and hooked to a powerful servo. If the boat were to get a gust the skipper thought was foilable he/she simply hits the deploy switch and in about one second the boat is on foils! As soon as the gust subsides the switch is hit again and the foils instantly retract! For the first time, to the best of my knowledge, a foiler can now directly compete with a non-foiler in lite and transitional conditions.The application of this system is on 2meter, Formula 48 and multiONE ?..”
Doug Lord<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>Anyone ever see one of these amazing things? Just send a check to microSAIL! And you might have a chance to. But don?t bet on it as he already sold five boats with this Quick Trac? system back in May of 2003, to which not one was delivered.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> but nevertheless its a fact: hydrofoils greatest contribution may not be speed at all it may be CONTROL-allowing anyone to experience the sheer exhileration of speed sailing on the water without fear of crashing and burning…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>Fact? The only facts you have is that the boat goes slow unless there is a good strong consisting wind. Otherwise it’s a “dog”. Yes, I guess I can agree that it’s quite controllable when your stuck to the water and doggin along. What other “facts” are there that foils are any kind of “greatest contribution”? How many races has a foiler boat won? I will admit that the one that Dick had a photo of looked fast at that point in time, but did it win? Really, I’m more then willing to be wrong here.
Here’s a web page from Kiwi Radio Yachting showing bicycles and tricycles in New Zealand.
John,
Must be a bad link. All that was there was some stupid boat stuff. What’s that about!?[:-boring]
[:-bouncy]