Quick and Exciting ........... Multihull Sailing

The F3 foiler shown on microsail.com in video and pictures was photographed flying in a measured windspeed of 5-6mph.
You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that if you could retract the foils in 0-to 5mph you’d really have an allround boat.
As has been referred to in numerous other places deliveries of X3’s were postponed-not cancelled.
But I have provided information to numerous people not only how to build a functioning lite air foiler but how to do retractable foils-at no charge whatsoever.
I believe in foiling technology and have proved that it works- whether its faster than a non foiled multi in a class like the F48 still has to be determined. But it is a FACT that foils add CONTROL- you’d have to sail one to experience it if you don’t understand the science behind it…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Try this
www.radioyachting.com/photo%20page.htm

then click “Multhulls” under Photos (on lefthand side of page)

I’m going with the computer virus…

Dick: Very informative post. Still would like to here from Peter about multis in Australia…

Dick,

the pics are awesome, greattttttttt!

thanks…now I got a new screensaver!!!

Wis

if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!

http://wismerhell.esmartdesign.com/index.htm

Further on my topic, the multihull is not affected by windshifts as much as monohulls as they (like the full size boat) drive there apparent wind forward. In Australia we have found that the tri is the preferred boat to sail, as in the prevailing winds we sail in they are able to carry full size rigs longer than cats can. Cats are far more harder to sail than the tri, as they don’t tack as quick, excellerate slower out of tacks and are less “stable”. When a tri “pitchpoles” 90% of the time it is from a loss of concentration from the “nut” on the controls rather than wind shifts.
The multi’s over here have competed on numerous occasions against apparent “fast” marbleheads. To windward i will admit that the marblehead will usually get to a top mark first, but then the multi “screams” past and it’s all over. The other thing i should mention is that the monohulls are given up to 20seconds “head start”, and first legs are normally about 50 metres long.
We have had skippers purchase “gun” boats from the “so called” best builder here in Australia, and at the last meeting before christmas these boats were always tailing the fleet in mini40 racing.
With mini40’s it is not advisable to go to maximum width as this “slows” the tacking ability, and if you are considering building a cat, DON’T go wider than 850mm, as they will not tack in anything under 5 knots apparent.
As for foilers, it is my opinion that racing them in combined fleets is fruitless, as all you need is skippers who will constantly call them port and starboard, and the speed that they can produce is nullified. The foiler is probably good for people who want a “wow” affect or would like to race against other foilers.
I hope this answers some questions on this subject.
Eased sheets Peter

From one of Doug’s previous posts that was quoted by Greg earlier …

<font size=“1”>"Enter the new Quick Trac idea: the foils AND the wand mechanism are mounted on rotating axles and hooked to a powerful servo. "</font id=“size1”>

OK - stop here and “think” about that for a moment. Now go back and read the quote one more time. OK ?

Here is one very important reason that I have been critical of the concept of retracting foils since this post was made. Even those without “technical foil experience” can understand this. Since the first posting of this “concept” I am still waiting [:-boring] to see a prototype - and why I have been constantly asking Doug to just demonstarte it.

Doug seems to be fond of facts - so let’s look for a moment at his facts and ideas on foils.

  1. Fact: Doug (finally) admits a foiler can be a “dog” in light air if foils can’t be retracted.

  2. Fact: Doug feels that “T-Foils” are the best answer to foils and has used them extensively in the F3 project. Who knows about the “other” ones.

  3. Fact: A “T-Foil” is shaped like an upside-down “T” and the cross foils is what controls the attitude (height) of the boat above water.

  4. FACT: The retractable idea Doug continues to promote includes a mechanism where the foils are mounted on rotating axles and hooked to a powerful servo.

  5. OK - here is why <u>I Want To See This Thing Work</u> … If you “rotate” a “T” shape while it is in the water, as the “T Foil” rotates from vertical to horizontal at some point (almost immediately past true vertical, the surface area of the foils “T” acts as a brake as the boat moves forward through the water, but the “T” is at right angles to the direction of travel. It is this seeming small and insignificant issue that causes me to ask (again) for a prototype to show me how this “rotating retracting T-Foil” will work without stopping or slowing the boat? Remember - this is happening in very light air.

What would be the results of dragging a parachute in the water for “1 second” behind ANY boat? Methinks it would tend to slow it down a lot. Rotating the foil on an axle WILL slow the boat down. The foils need to be raised vertically (like a daggerboard) to prevent the “T” part of the foil from acting like a brake. Doug isn’t in a position to sell you the product for simple installation on your multihull. This means you (YOU the owner) get to <u>build</u> the system yourself!

FACT: After three years, without a boat builder, it is easy to see how few F-48’s have hit the water, and there is a simple foam or balsa strip construction method available too. Now Doug wants you to believe that YOU can build a retracting foil system. Yes, I’m sure those new to the sport or to multihulls will quickly embrace that challenge.

The multihull is designed to be fast. If it can include “control” so much the better, but until the idea is demonstracted (to use Rohan Veal as Doug’s favorite guy) ON THE WATER, once again, we will all sit around and wait until a product is available to be purchased. Perhaps a few may make a stab at building their own foil system.

FACT: In the past Doug has indicated a multihull needs to be properly designed to use foils. So if you design a boat to use foils, but then “lift” the foils and deactivate them, doesn’t this change the “concept” of a boat being designed for foils? For the beginner, wanting to “learn” to sail a multihull - simply remove the daggerbaord and replace it with one with a chunk of lead on the bottom. Much easier and less trouble for these kind of “training wheels” - and a lot less work and cost too! Once you feel comfortable with sailing experience just replace with an “unleaded” keel version.

Contrary to Doug’s views - the “jury” is a long way from rendering it’s verdict. In fact, they are still waiting to see all the physical evidence first. In the meantime - you can purchase a multihull kit from a US builder in Kansas, you can purchase a complete boat from a UK builder, you can build your own out of foam or balsa using any number of free on-line plans, … or … you can sit and wait for Doug to build and sell his retracting foil idea.

In the meantime - Don’t let horror stories keep you away from a fast sailing multihull.

There is a misunderstanding on how a retracting foil system works. If you view the boat from in front the t-foil rotates like a propeller on a prop plane: both t-foils rotate toward the main hull.The axis of rotation is approximately parallel to the centerline of the main hull and to the waterline. In retracting the foils there is a decrease in drag instantaneously(within one second). The foil/wand assembly is simply mounted in a carbon tube rotating assembly activated by a single servo.Any expert builder could make something like this with no problem.
A foiler is designed differently than a “normal” tri since the center of gravity of the boat and foils must be in a specific relationship. Generally, this means the rig on a foiler is further forward than the rig on a conventional tri.If the boat were to sail in strong winds configured that way WITHOUT foils it would instantaneously pitchpole.But because the boat can foil in as little as 5 mph of wind stability on a properly designed foiler is NOT an issue as it is with conventional stuck to the water multihulls.Further, a foiler on foils can tack in less than two seconds with hardly any loss of speed…
A further design advantage of the foiler that allows it to carry the foil retract system with no weight gain is that since the outside hulls are not used to fly the multihull the hulls only have to be big enough to resist the errant gust. This produces hulls that are substantially smaller than a conventional trimaran…
Sailing a foiler is MUCH less demanding than a conventional multihull in winds over 8mph and makes the boat suitable for a beginner in a ready to sail version; an expert builder is required to build a foiler(or any multihull) from scratch.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Let me get this straight–are you saying that you haven’t even built or sailed the foil retract system that you have been promoting?

All the design ,testing and tooling necessary to build the X3 retractable foiler is complete and ready to build production boats.
The retractable system is quite simple and is based on the PROVEN F3 foils and the altitude control system inspired by Dr. Sam Bradfield.
This kind of system is a breakthru in the use of hydrofoils on rc models since it eliminates the greatest problem heretofore: lite air performance off the foils.
It should be a lot of fun to sail too-even by inexperienced sailors and those new to multihulls.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

The direct answer to the question then is “NO”, you have neither built nor sailed your retractable foil system.

Which means you have claimed a “breakthrough” without any real world testing or proof.

Wow!!!

Horse Manure! read the post…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

This is unreal—let me ask this simple, direct question again–Have you built and sailed the foil retract system you claim is a “breakthru”?

(And they say lawyers use weasel words…)

Doug I am a professional salesman I know snake oil when I see it or worse yet hear about the potential possibility of it. Answer the question with a yes or a no.

Snake oil, hell!This is such BS! There are a number of posts here andon this website that describe the fact that the X3 has been postponed and is second priority to the F100CBTF. But it wasn’t postponed until all testing, necessary to produce the boat was 100% complete including foils, altitude control system and the retract mechanics.
The design of the boat is based on the proven F3 sailing(see: www.microsail.com) system and could be built by an expert builder NOW with my guidance.
And the finished boat could be sailed by a beginner with very little guidance in conditions a normal multihull would have trouble with-and that part of the performance has been tested extensively on the water.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

With a correction maybe?

“…and that part of the <font color=“maroon”><font size=“2”>F3 non-retracting foil</font id=“size2”></font id=“maroon”> performance has been tested extensively on the water”

Hey Peter - photos of your boat please?

Attached are some of the boats sailed by members of our club. You will see that there is known designs including Snapdragons and Ghost Trians, there are also home designed and built boats.
The blue boat is the current state champion and is a modified IOM.
Following along this line, some of our members have bought old Marbleheads, cut them down and they have sprouted wings which has made them very fast, able to tack extremely well even in very light breezes and can carry full size No 1 rigs (.9sm) up to 15 knots apparent without pitchpoling or rolling in sideways when sailed properly. This has been viewed by me when racing against it and I am in the process of building my own boat to be able to at least compete with them. I think that this is the way to go and the F48 rules aren’t that much different to the mini40 ones.
Just a note on the “retractable foils design”, it would require an additional servo, which means another channel therefore making for a three channel set which makes it illegal under mini40 rules at least, because we are only allowed two channel radios.
Eased Sheets Peter

Download Attachment: [ Current_Champion_191x243.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Peter Stevens/2004121204523_Current_Champion_191x243.jpg)
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Download Attachment: [ Bill-2nd_and_Darren-3rd__2__203x272.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Peter Stevens/2004121204546_Bill-2nd_and_Darren-3rd__2__203x272.jpg)
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Download Attachment: [ Dean’s Tri .jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Peter Stevens/2004121204613_Dean’s Tri .jpg)
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Download Attachment: [ Fleet 3 (3)_200x250.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Peter Stevens/2004121204646_Fleet 3 (3)_200x250.jpg)
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Peter, thanks for the pictures! The last two wouldn’t open for me-might be a webtv thing -I don’t know.
Is the two channel rule an Australian or local rule? I know that in Europe boats have been raced in major regattas with more than two channels…
Are there any foilers that race with you-either fully submerged or surface piercing?

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

same as Doug the last 2 pics cant be open…

Thanks anyway for the pics!!

Wis

if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!

http://wismerhell.esmartdesign.com/index.htm