Movable Ballast?-Psaros 40

Other The Local Pub
1

This is a boat profiled in the new Seahorse; it is a 40 foot one design that is designed to race on the big lakes of Europe.
What makes this boat so spectacular is that it doesn’t just have movable ballast it has THREE forms of movable ballast!!

  1. At least four trapeze dudes or dudettes
  2. A 40 degree canting keel
  3. Water Ballast tanks
    According to the designer the Righting Moment is so great that it is half way between a “normal” monohull and a multihull!
    She uses twin asymetrical daggerboards for lateral resistance when the keel cants and ,of course, uses a square top main like any modern raceboat should(incl. models-commentary!)
    Quite a machine!!!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

2

and … ?

Seems more like a topic for a big boat forum. No problem using it as an example on a forum topic related to r/c discussion - but seems especially out of place considering it is simply a “post” about big boats that was initiated (once again) not in reference to an on-going topic, but to post simply to once again draw attention to technology. Unfortunately, most it relates to big boats. Let’s see - in r/c sailing we don’t use a trapeeze for “dudes or dudettes”, and we don’t use water ballast. Canting keels (for a few who actually are making them) are already well known, and square-top mains are also common on a few r/c class boats.

I can go to Sailing Anarcy or other sites if I want to read about big boats. Please - what is your point of posting big boat information on an r/c discussion forum ?

3

The purpose is to inspire newcomers and old timers alike with the phenomenol degree to which new technology is being embraced in full size sailing; to inspire them to think of ways that this technology can be brought to rc sailing-the sooner the better.
Already ,there is one manufacturer building a canting keel boat and another almost ready to start. There is a Trapeze Power Ballast System that accurately simulates the movement of a crew with a trapeze sitting in my shop right now on a D4Z catamaran.Ian Sammis has designed a Movable Ballast system for rc multihulls… In addition to which I have used Trapeze Power Ballast Systems on a 36" scow, a 55" Melges prototype and a 50" skiff prototype. As far as monos go all that experimentation has shown that perhaps the fastest unlimited version of an F100CBTF will be with a COMBINATION of Trapeze Power Ballast System and Canting keel.
A company in England is close to introducing their version of the Musto Skiff with a different version of a Trapeze Power Ballast System that accomplishes much the same thing: increasing Righting Moment!
And Matthew Lingely has conceptualized a model that would benefit from water ballast.
Use of one form or another of movable ballast offers new experiences,requires new skills. The understanding of how this technology is applied in full size boats is key to understanding how it can be -should be- applied in rc sailing.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

4

Let me suggest a simple alternative explanation for this thread:

A MANUFACTUER IS TRYING TO HYPE INTEREST IN BOATS/TECHNOLOGY HE IS TRYING TO SELL.

5

4 crew on trapps on a 40 footer? is that gonna make alot of difference?
R/c musto skiff? who? what? where? If its anything like the fullsize boat Ill have one! Mind you, I really want a real musto skiff, particulaly as it might be replaceing the Fin at the olyimpics, nobody knows any potential sponsors by chance?!
Roy, Dick, this is the Pub area, you can talk about what you want, not just r/c. I think you find thats one of the reasons for its being…

Luff 'em & leave 'em.

6

WOW - I didn’t know ALL of that!

But wait a minute - isn’t that similar to your posts that you made whenever ANY new big boat came out with “your” ideas?

Let’s see …

Red Hornet
Wild Oats
Mari Cha
Shock 40
…the list goes on…

Do we need to go through this again when the next big boat comes out using this type of technology? I mean, after all, how many times do you need to repat yourself? Who on this forum HASN’T read your posts about the new technology?

I know that many in AMYA are at least 50 years of age or older, so is this necessary for those of us who you think might be suffering from senility or forgetfullness? Do <u>you</u> even know how MANY times you have posted (on this forum alone) the same basic information? Was this post necesary for a new topic - and why couldn’t it have been added to one of the multitudes of existing forum topics you have initiated or posted the same basic things.

Here’s a hint - if you’ve said it before, forget repeating your self. It’s getting boring, and unless you have something new to say, it’s the S.O.S. !

Here’s your post response and I indicated how it could be edited (which you enjoy doing) to make it (perhaps) a bit newsworthy.

"The purpose is to inspire newcomers and old timers alike with the phenomenol degree to which new technology is being embraced in full size sailing; to inspire them to think of ways that this technology can be brought to rc sailing-the sooner the better.
<font color=“red”><s>Already ,there is one manufacturer building a canting keel boat and another almost ready to start. There is a Trapeze Power Ballast System that accurately simulates the movement of a crew with a trapeze sitting in my shop right now on a D4Z catamaran.Ian Sammis has designed a Movable Ballast system for rc multihulls… In addition to which I have used Trapeze Power Ballast Systems on a 36" scow, a 55" Melges prototype and a 50" skiff prototype. As far as monos go all that experimentation has shown that perhaps the fastest unlimited version of an F100CBTF will be with a COMBINATION of Trapeze Power Ballast System and Canting keel.
A company in England is close to introducing their version of the Musto Skiff with a different version of a Trapeze Power Ballast System that accomplishes much the same thing: increasing Righting Moment!</s></font id=“red”>
And Matthew Lingely has conceptualized a model that would benefit from water ballast.
Use of one form or another of movable ballast offers new experiences,requires new skills. The understanding of how this technology is applied in full size boats is key to understanding how it can be <font color=“red”><s>-should be-</s></font id=“red”> [i][b]applied in rc sailing.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing"[/b][/i]
Now, drop out the red text (which has been repeated so often), and the post actually might make sense.

Oh, by the way, I take it the big boat DOESN’T use spinnakers - or you would have included that … right? … or … did you forget that?

[:-banghead]

7

HEY WIS !!!

Post Anthony Wright’s web site URL if you get a chance. I have it at home, and may be the one Doug is talking about. If I get home before you post, I will post a photo of “Ant’s” Musto Skiff.

8

I brought this subject up because this is the place on the forum for “off topic subjects” and lends itself perfectly to the introduction to rc sailors of the technology used on fullsize boats. The point is to spark their imagination-there are many people out there -some of them on this forum that are interested in new developments in full size sailing and how they can relate to rc sailing-thats the point.
There are now FOUR rc builders that are building or about to be building movable ballast boats and /or systems and several times that many individuals experimenting with the same technology-and they have all been inspired by extraordinary developments like the boat in this post.
This is an exciting time for any sailor that is interested in high performance sailing: from a Moth winning a development class Nationals on hydrofoils to Pyewackett and Morning Glory -among the largest CBTF boats ever launched- to a Windsurfer within .32 knots of the outright world speed record held for so long by Yellow Pages Endeavor.
Exciting times for beginners in rc sailing as well as long time sailors because there are more and more manufacturers building boats using the technology and exciting times for homebuilders because they have a great forum like this to find detailed help with the technology-help that is not found on a single other forum!!!
This is the place for finding out about the newest technology,to talk to others actually building such boats and to be inspired to build your own. It is a place for ideas, imagination and exploration–so join in you might learn something-and have fun doing it!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

9

Dear Doug - regarding your most recent post … You said everything in green in one way or another in your previous post. Why do you need to restate what you just posted?

"<s><font color=“green”>I brought this subject up because this is the place on the forum for “off topic subjects” and lends itself perfectly to the introduction to rc sailors of the technology used on fullsize boats. The point is to spark their imagination-there are many people out there -some of them on this forum that are interested in new developments in full size sailing and how they can relate to rc sailing-thats the point.</font id=“green”></s> Already said similar in above post

<font color=“green”><s>There are now FOUR rc builders that are building or about to be building movable ballast boats and /or systems </s></font id=“green”>Already said that in above post. and several times that many individuals experimenting with the same technology-and they have all been inspired by extraordinary developments like the boat in this post.
<s><font color=“green”>This is an exciting time for any sailor that is interested in high performance sailing:</font id=“green”></s>Already said that in the above post. <s>from a Moth winning a development class Nationals on hydrofoils to Pyewackett and Morning Glory -among the largest CBTF boats ever launched- to a Windsurfer within .32 knots of the outright world speed record held for so long by Yellow Pages Endeavor.</s> All the preceding are big boats - this is an r/c forum. <font color=“green”><s>Exciting times for beginners in rc sailing as well as long time sailors because there are more and more manufacturers building boats using the technology </s></font id=“green”> Already said that in above post. and exciting times for homebuilders because they have a great forum like this to find detailed help with the technology-help that is not found on a single other forum!!!
This is the place for finding out about the newest technology,to talk to others actually building such boats and to be inspired to build your own. It is a place for ideas, imagination and exploration–so join in you might learn something-and have fun doing it!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing"

“so join in you might learn something-and have fun doing it!” - I don’t need to join in to listen to repetitive posts. I have many other big boat forums where I can read and hear about big boat technologies (and failures) and the real reason I stay, is that I hope (someday perhaps) to read something completely new and unique to you … that you actually built and raced a boat containing these ideas in an AMYA race. (Likely not to happen too soon) So in the meantime, all of us can get the same information from other locations, sites and forums. What - do you no think you have the corner on the market of new ideas? Do you think that if you don’t tell us we will remain uninformed?

And what would really inspire us (and them) is if you would hustle your butt down to Wal-Mart, buy an disposable camera, take pictures of all of your “ideas” and post them - or send to me - I will gladly post on your behalf “Mr. Technology”. At least then a lot of repetitive words can be eliminated and people could really see what you are proposing - unless of course, an instamatic and Wal-Mart digital developing is beyond your scope of technology? - or the product only exists in your mind?

10

Whether it is a multihll with a Power Ballast System or a keelboat with a canting keel RC models using movable ballast are among the most fun to sail of any rc sailboats under the sun! Nothing compares to having the ballast at your finger tips except maybe being on a full size boat like the boat described in the first post. It is a thrill denied anyone who sails in a recognized development class so to use this technology in competition there are only a few start up development classes to consider: the Formula100, F48 multihull, the multiONE, and a couple of classes that are just now being conceptualized.But change is coming because movable ballast sailing is a HUGE jump in rc sailing excitement-totaly unmatched by fixed keel sailing/racing or “normal” rc multihull sailling/racing.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

11

Dick,

While I commiserate with your frustration, I do have one comment to make. The AMYA is not the end all and be all of our sport. In fact, over half the racing membership in my class (Fairwind) does not belong to the AMYA or an AMYA club. To hit a little closer to home, neither the F48 nor the MultiOne are AMYA recognized classes.

Does that mean we are not allowed to talk about those boats here? I don’t think so. Should we limit our thinking to only those boats? I don’t think so.

Doug,

I have to agree with Dick that more pictures would certianly help explain what you are trying to say much of the time. I know you have a few models that use power ballast. how about some pictures of the boats sailing with the power ballast neutralized (centered) and then maxed out. That would certainly show the righting moment potential of power ballast. It seems you have a digitial camera because you do manage to post pictures of your creations on your company’s site (microsail.com). Get out ther and take pictures of the fun you are having with your power ballast. Better yet, put it on an IOM or a Soling 1M or some other boat that is sailed in your neck of the woods and (although it is illegal in those classes) go out and win some races (or give it to someone else who will then win some races).

I know there are guys racing boats in your area. Get out there and join them. Unless they are real a$$holes, they will let you play. And if you show that your idea is really faster than the boats without, you may gain some customers…

  • Will

Will Gorgen

12

Will, there are pictures of two different Trapeze Power Ballast Systems on my website now: one shows the Melges 24 model so equipped and the other shows the microMOTH with the PBS centered and fully extended. In addition to which I believe we still have a sketch up on the site. At this point I don’t sell Trapeze Power Ballast Systems but I do help others to put them together. I also explain that with the possible exeption of the microMOTH the fastest movable ballast system for a model monohull is either a canting keel or combination of canting keel and Trapeze System. I don’t advocate putting PBS, canting keels or spinnakers on any model that is not designed specifically for them .
On weekends the Spinnaker 50’s have been making road trips for the last three months to Mount Dora, Lady Lake, and Cocoa plus to other local sites instead of our normal location in Orlando. They attract a lot of attention wherever we go with them.
Sailing with a spinnaker or movable ballast is unique , fun and chalenging and I intend to do all I can to get the word out.
But I’m not alone anymore with other manufactures getting wise to the incredible potential of movable ballast for fun and speed in rc sailing. Its just a matter of time before one of these boats shows up near you…
Pictures are a real pain-I don’t have a digital camera(but even if I did I couldn’t post pictures with webtv) but thats going to change . The guy that took most of the good pictures on the website is gone and the guys I race with don’t have one either…But I don’t need pictures right now-- will soon though.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

13

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by wgorgen

Dick,

To hit a little closer to home, neither the F48 nor the MultiOne are AMYA recognized classes.

Does that mean we are not allowed to talk about those boats here? <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Just a minor alternative view - if I may …

  1. both boats (F-48 and MultiONE) are recognized by AMYA as part of the OPEN CLASS, and therefore are subject to acknowledgement and recognition as a member of that class. No different than the recognition of the Fairwind class as it grew prior to being it’s own class. <font size=“1”><font color=“maroon”>(personal view: The F-48 and MultiONE Class probably could have grown faster had there been a major toy company building and marketing them - rather than starting out as a scratch-built class)</font id=“maroon”></font id=“size1”>

  2. Photos of boats (F-48 and Multi1) actually sailing and on the water are available and posted in several places on the web - and in this forum. In addition, <u>MORE than one person </u>is building (or manufacturing) both the F-48 and the MultiONE - unlike “other” high technology ideas being professed but not built.

As noted elsewhere, there is a vast difference in something actually on the water or being constructed, versus the “vaporware or smoke and mirrors” we seem to be subjected to on a daily occurence.

I know of one person on this forum who has managed to post photos of his ideas, technology and his canting keel boat. The boat is not part of any recognized class, yet it exists in pictures, and I am rightly proud and impressed at his “quandrant” idea for tilting a keel. Seems he, in a period of several months has managed to do what “Mr. Technology” has only been able to “write” about for several years. Why can this one individual manage to build a boat (or be in progress of construction) in such a short period of time and the “self-proclaimed guru of technology” cannot?

Now since this is a <font size=“3”>“PUB” </font id=“size3”>Forum, I must apologize to those at the other tables for getting so serious with my question. A few more beers and I could simply have “flipped” you off ! [:D]

14

I think that is response number … ummmm by you - right?

Since you ask - please include the following in any reference you want to make about my feelings of the boats.

The Spinnaker 50 was way too heavy as a boat. The spinnaker was too small in comparison to the jib and “regular” sail area to see any improvement in performance with or without the spinnaker, and there is no class organization in which to sail it here in Minnesota. Thus I was not interested in the boat for those reasons.

The F3 did get up on foils - until they picked up weeds (as I detailed to you when I said I would never have one just because our lakes have weeds) It also was slower than the Spinnaker 50 when winds weren’t strong enough to keep it on it’s foils. Finally, we spent the good part of the afternoon trying to get the head of the sail set right. That was between the owner and Tony Johnson (well respected soft and hard water r/c sailor), myself and Dave Goebbel. You said something was wrong with the setup. I sent you photos, and in two summers, you have never called the owner to see if you help him fix the problem. Seems the problem was up at the top of one of your high-tech, WingTip Rigs.

On to the F-48 - where are photos of the three, four or five F-48’s that you registered? Or was that a big sham too - trying to convince people they really exist? Given the fact (FACT!) that not one F-48 has been seen in photos - either on the water or under construction, Oh - that’s right, they aren’t a priority like your “other” projects. Forgot. Well you fooled me once with a big lie that these boats existed and were to be delivered, and now they have been “postponed”. Won’t happen again.

As far as “my” F-48 - I showed you mine - you show me yours or just find something else to be repetitive about until you can actually produce.

15

14

16

Most definetly Response Number 17…

Much better than Number 18–“Liar, Liar Pants on Fire”.

As to problems in getting the Formula 48 class up and running, now that a real boat builder is involved and Dick is trying to build fleets and organize races, the class seems to be moving forward.

And Doug you know better than anyone else of the personal reasons why Dick hasn’t been able to spend most of his time building and sailing boats. What’s your excuse?

17

For those of you who may have missed it, this is the missing post that Dick, Matt and Roy were responding to. One of Doug’s nastier ones I would think?maybe not, I have to check the missing post archives that I found. Sorry, I can?t give up that info?.
Place this post in between the two Dick Lemke post.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

Funny comeing from an F48 actng(!) Class Secetary who in THREE years has not managed to build and sail ONE F48 and who has never ever sailed an F48 rc multihull. Not only that the ONLY rc multihull you have ever sailed was the F3 hydrofoil provided by the “Guru of Technology”!!! And there and then and subsequently you spoke highly of the Spinnaker 50 and the F3–fortunately for me you can’t deny it since you did it in front of witnesses.
You know full well what the story on the F100CBTF is as well as the fact that a detailed history of the conception and design have been posted on this website with frequent updates.People in glass houses and all that…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

18

<center>Wow

[}:)]

You <u>Are</u> Good ! </center>

19

Hey Dick,

Last time I checked, Doug has plenty of pictures of his spinnaker boats, his foilers and his boats with his PBS system posted on his website. In fact, I think you have even sailed 2 of these. So the only idea that might possibly fit into the category of “vaporware” is the canting ballast F100 which Doug freely claims is not done yet.

So I fail to see your point.

And if we are going to include the F48 and MultiOne in the open class, then surely the Spinnaker 50, AmericaOne and F3 Also Fit into that class.

So Again, I fail to see your point.

Yes, I am as anxious as you to see Doug finish some of his current progress. Heck, I am anxious to see my own projects make more progress than they have. But Doug has put a lot of his ideas on the water. To pick on his latest idea and say that he can’t do anything is simply unfair. Frankly, I think that doug may have found some other ideas to keep himself busy and if things keep going the way they are here, I think i may do the same.

I am surprised that you reacted with so much hostility toward my post - to the point where only a beer or two kept you from flipping me off. I was merely pointing out that your bashing of Doug for not building a boat under a recognized AMYA class (other than the open class) was perhaps a bit restrictive. You will note that in the exact same post that you found so hostile toward you, I was much more “hostile” toward Doug and it is clear from his response that he was nowhere near ready to flip me off. My comment was not meant to offend but rather to simply point out that we on this board have never restricted our discussions to purely AMYA recognized classes. So trying to put a muzzle on Doug until he builds a boat able to race in an AMYA race is an unrealistic criteria.

  • Will

Will Gorgen

20

This <u>IS</u> the PUB ! Sorry you took it personal.

Back to the post based on your provided quote… - it was made directly toward the comment about the F-48 and MultiONE <u>NOT</u> being an AMYA Class - so my response was to point out that it was “sorta” an incorrect statement of fact. No where else in that post did I comment or say anything about Doug’s other projects. Perhaps you are confusing “my” post with one of the many that Doug posts where questions about new ideas are directed to the Spinnaker 50 and America One as an answer.

Part Two - and most puzzling, is a FACT - not conjecture, that at least one person, perhaps more than one, on this form have posted photos of their “F-100 work in progress” regarding canting keel theory. I’m almost positive they have worked at it for a comparatively short period of time, as compared to Doug’s effusive claims, posts and conjectures.

Again - my question… “How is it someone else can be building a boat based on Doug’s theories, when in fact Doug hasn’t been able to do it himself?” “Why can they post photos of their “work in progress” but Doug can’t?”

Perhaps, you were confusing yourself with my other post about the Spinnaker 50 and the F3 and how I felt about sailing them? Unfortunately, Doug has deleted that post, but Greg seems to have found it and reposted it as a quote.

Twice I advised Doug, I was more than capable in providing reference to his boats that I had sailed, and that I would. Twice Doug has used my comments to project a different view of the “total” set of comments. The comments I made about the F3 and the Spinnaker 50 are based on my impressions and opinions AFTER SAILING them. They are based on experience. Doug just decided that it would be easier to take the positive things and ignore the areas where I felt there was a lacking… namely (and again) for all the “hoopla” of a spinnaker, the area size has little if any bearing on actual boat performance. I noticed NO neglibile increase in boat speed with the spinnaker up or down. It is my opinion that the spinnaker on the Spinnaker 50 that I sailed was more of a “Gee-Whizz” feature than a true, added speed option. On the F3, - which I also sailed - I commented that it could be tacked while up on foils and was very responsive. However, it was a downright “dog” when it wasn’t foiling, there was no way to raise the foils in light air, and it had a tendency to catch weeds resulting in even slower movement through the water when the foils were loaded with weeds.

Those were two (2) different posts - the first was made to your quote about the F-48. Meanwhile, Doug posted, then removed the second topic that I was responding to, and <u>THAT</u> is where you might have picked up on issues of the Spinnaker 50 and the F3.

to save you time - here is my post to which you seem to feel was personal:

<font size=“1”><font face=“Times New Roman”>quote:

Originally posted by wgorgen

Dick,

To hit a little closer to home, neither the F48 nor the MultiOne are AMYA recognized classes.

Does that mean we are not allowed to talk about those boats here?

Just a minor alternative view - if I may …

  1. both boats (F-48 and MultiONE) are recognized by AMYA as part of the OPEN CLASS, and therefore are subject to acknowledgement and recognition as a member of that class. No different than the recognition of the Fairwind class as it grew prior to being it’s own class. (personal view: The F-48 and MultiONE Class probably could have grown faster had there been a major toy company building and marketing them - rather than starting out as a scratch-built class)

  2. Photos of boats (F-48 and Multi1) actually sailing and on the water are available and posted in several places on the web - and in this forum. In addition, MORE than one person is building (or manufacturing) both the F-48 and the MultiONE - unlike “other” high technology ideas being professed but not built.

As noted elsewhere, there is a vast difference in something actually on the water or being constructed, versus the “vaporware or smoke and mirrors” we seem to be subjected to on a daily occurence.

I know of one person on this forum who has managed to post photos of his ideas, technology and his canting keel boat. The boat is not part of any recognized class, yet it exists in pictures, and I am rightly proud and impressed at his “quandrant” idea for tilting a keel. Seems he, in a period of several months has managed to do what “Mr. Technology” has only been able to “write” about for several years. Why can this one individual manage to build a boat (or be in progress of construction) in such a short period of time and the “self-proclaimed guru of technology” cannot?

Now since this is a “PUB” Forum, I must apologize to those at the other tables for getting so serious with my question. A few more beers and I could simply have “flipped” you off ! </font id=“Times New Roman”></font id=“size1”>
The grinning “Smilie” does not copy but was on the original.

Hopefully this clarification helps?