In a simply stunning series of races Rohan Veal sailing his hydrofoil equipped Moth has won the Australian Nationals. His margins in moderate conditions were up to 9 minutes!
This is an historic event for all of sailing since never in the 50 plus year history of hydrofoils has a development class Nationals been won -or even closely contested -by a boat on foils!(Note that in rc development classes foils and the movable ballast needed to make them work are illegal in EVERY recognized development class!)
This is much more than a triumph of technology: it signals a change in how boats are sailed-or should I say flown. It is a stunning breakthru that is the begining of a new era in small monohull sailing–new skills have to be learned and new experiences will be had-experiences that were just the realm of dreams two years ago!
See more later under Technology for descriptions of the type and mechanics of Rohans foils.
Congratulations to Rohan Veal! There is a major hurdle left and that is a vote by the class on whether to continue to allow foils to be legal-a vote brought up by people who have NEVER tried hydrofoil sailing and done in a blatant political move to STOP FOILS! I have personally talked to Rohan Veal , John Ilett builder of his (and my!) foils and they contend that foiling will(has) sparked new interest across the world in Moth sailing and that they will be the rebirth of one of the greatest development classes ever! I only hope the I14’s that banned full flying foilers when it looked like David Lugg might win the Australian Nationals are watching…
UPDATE: There were 10 races Rohan won 8 of them ; there were two discards so the final was an unprecedented 8 straight races!!! His GPS measure Top speed was just over 20 knots in a moserate breeze.Shows what can be done when a development class allows DEVELOPMENT!!! Rohans boat name: “White Knuckle Express”
This phenomenal success will bolster efforts by RC sailors including me to produce rc versions of the two foil Moth!And rc keelboats(canting) using the same technology!
UPDATE:1/5/04- The Moth Class has rejected attempts by a small minority to ban foils and has overwhelmingly appoved hydrofois for the Class! This is important to understand for all development classes including new rc classes:if the BASIC rules are not locked in in some manner they can face repeated challenges under many guises likeif you don’t ban this the class will die; if you don’t ban this costs wil go thru the roof etc. At least the Moth Class members stod up for development and considering what Rohan has just accomplished the class is without a doubt the most technically advanced full size development class monohull.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Not sure if any saw this on the newswires today …
<font size=“4”>A CBN NEWSBRIEF</font id=“size4”>
Australia, January 2, 2004
It was reported today, that in light of the Autralian Moth Championship wins by Rohan Veal, sailing his hydrofoil equipped Moth, an American, Mr. G. God, has quickly and quietly joined the Moth Class Association in order to assist in gaining support to prevent hydrofoils from being banned in this class. This unusual move of an American joining and supporting a class which by nature has little U.S. following has created wonderment in Australia and elsewhere around the world. To those who know Mr. God, it merely is an extension of his personal insertions into a variety of classes - none of which he is a member.
Better know for his canting keel technolgy theory in radio controlled sailing (as opposed to demonstrated on-water performance), this reporter was astounded to learn that Mr. God (as a few refer to him) was also instrumental in the development of a radio control Moth that was announced to be the fastest and most “fun” boat to sail by radio control. Interested sailors in the r/c hobby are still waiting to see photos and results of “ANY” sailing by this craft.
Those who were ardent followers of Mr. God’s theories of canting keel technology, were upset to learn he might become more interested (once again) in r/c monohull foiler activity - leaving his current (short list) of followers to wallow about trying to build their own canting keel system.
Mr. God, on the other hand, was heard to explain to another reporter, that his foray into the Moth Class was simply to support a class that might not approve of foils - much as was done to the International 14 Class. According to a quote by Mr. God … “There is a major hurdle left and that is a vote by the class on whether to continue to allow foils to be legal-a vote brought up by people who have NEVER tried hydrofoil sailing and done in a blatant political move to STOP FOILS!” When asked if he has ever sailed a foiler, Mr. God indicated “he has one at home, and had photos to prove it!” (<font size=“1”>editor’s note: The existance of actual photos in the U.S. were confirmed by anonymous sources - but it was noted that “none have been seen of the boat up on foils!”)</font id=“size1”> When pressed by reporters, about why a person with NO foiling experience on a Moth would involve himself with the debate, he mumbled some unintelligible remarks to the effect that if he didn’t become involved, the vast conspiracy of those against all new ideas would surely take over the world. A bystander, familiar with Mr. God’s previous efforts to change International Class Rules for other classes, just smiled when asked and replied …“Well, there are some of us who have recently exited the smoke screen and mirrors he has used for the past 3 years!” “Some of us understand that if you reporters keep asking questions about when his ideas will actually arrive on the water in the form of the MicroMoth, the F-100, the F-150, the two versions of multihulls - one that has been in the planning state for over 3 years, the Areoskiff, the MaxZ, and a few others that seem to come and go, … Mr. God will begin a program not to update and actually produce and sell some of these, but a program to discredit you, your company and your news organization, your mother and her mother too!” This reporter noted a few other bystanders shaking their heads in agreement with this bystander’s statements.
Before additional questions could be asked (but not answered) Mr. God quickly departed, leaving many reporters more confused than before - but it was later explained that Mr. God is well known for repetitive confusion, evasive answers to specific questions, and the need to be the self-proclaimed Messiah for all things of an r/c technology nature.
CBN has been assured, that they will soon become a target of Mr. God’s wrath, and that all press releases will probably deny the existance of this report. Continued updates will be forthcoming (like his boats) as we at CBN continue to follow this issue - and a few others.
Damn right wing ,Retro Dude inspired media! Funny Dick-facts aren’t worth anything but I like the style…
Unfortunately, you are wayoff topic again; maybe we can get this moved to the Pub…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
LOL let me pick my self up off the ground.
-Dan
Doug you?re off topic in your own post. The title of your post was ?Moth on Foils wins Nationals? but you went off topic to make a jab at the established development classes when you said, ?(Note that in rc development classes foils and the movable ballast needed to make them work are illegal in EVERY recognized development class!)?.
I think your upset because they won?t let you play with your toys in there sandbox.
-Dan
the following is off the topic:
On topic, off topic, on topic, off topic. I guess people like things to be neat orderly, and make sense, and they hate it when somebody shakes things up with some words. Words do matter, but personnally I think its better to have more words and expression, and have things be messy, than to silence people just because we might not like what we hear, let alone find it useful.
The following is hopefully on topic:
I think it must have been pretty cool to make a sailboat fly like an airplane under the power of nothing but the wind. how cool is that!!
(hope that was on topic enough cause you never know)
Just a quote from this months Yachts and Yachting (main sail racing mag in the uk, they even report on models);
“One day, boat designers might look back fondly at their predecessors who designed boats to be fast through the water. Instead, boat designers may well be wondering how to make sailling craft travel more quickly above the water…”
Nuff said.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
Matthew ,
I think you are missing the point here. You are very new to this hobby and to these discussion sites. I will tell you now that I highly doubt that anyone here is ?anti?-new technology. The problem that most here have is the continual claims by Doug that we in fact are. We are NOT. What we are is all very fed up with Doug?s claims on just how wonderful it is and would be for RC sailing. His claims that it ?is? the best thing to ever happen and in his mind is the answer to every question here. He claims these things with nothing at all to back it up.
You standing by Doug, backing him up is a dead end for you. I?ve been waiting to here about your trip down to Fla. And just how you feel that Doug?s foil boat sails. While your down there, PLEASE, please bring your camera and post some reports on all of these new boats that Doug has somewhere in his shop. Get on the sticks and let us know just how wrong we all are. You have the invitation. I would imagine that Doug could even help you out with financing the trip as he obviously has quite a bit of cash to through around. Hell, I bet we could all pitch in here and help get you down there, humm guys?
As for me I used to be eager to see what Doug?s latest boat will be, but in that time I have found that it?s usually 80% fantasy. That?s not a problem, but it is if the guy fantasizing thinks it?s reality.
I admire you enthusiasm Matthew, don?t loose it. I do though hope that you can create these ideas into something that we might some day all share. You really need to stand back Matt and see just what Doug is doing. Don?t let all those P.M.s and emails that he sends you fool you. You know, the ?you and me against all those bad guys, we?ll show them when I finish that boat. Hey, you want to sail it and show them up ? I?ll send it up to you when it?s done. ? one?s that he used to send me and some other?s here.
Just be careful defending someone that you just don?t know. And you need to remember that it?s NOT us against YOUR personal views. It?s nothing to do with them at all. Stand back and don?t let him suck the life out of you as he has done to many others.
As usual Greg the facts don’t matter to you because what irks you more than anything is my OPINION!!
Fact: I designed and patented the first rc spinnaker system with beam reach to beam reach capability.And then built nearly twenty boats in two classes using the system-there is even video on the website in addition to testimony of people who have sailed seen and/or sailed them like Matt White and your cohort Dick Lemke who not only sailed a Spinnaker 50 he sailed an F3 and pronounced both boats very well built.Imagine, with all his recent attacks on me the Acting Class Secretary of the Formula 48 Class has only sailed one rc multihull-the F3 !!!Designed and built by me!! The F3 is the worlds first production RC sailing hydrofoil and there is video of that boat also on the website!
As to canting keels I’ve been working on developing the best state of the art canting keel boat for well over three years and have had all sorts of technical problems- each one solved as it came up-and I have never given up. I have kept a public record of the progress of the F100 CBTF and ,incidentally,am the EXCLUSIVE, licensee for that technology in rc sailboats: that is a FACT with LOTS to back it up. Further, I have been fortunate enough to have Graham Bantock design the F100CBTF and to have him study, very thoroughly, the application of CBTF to a model Another FACT. It is also a FACT that Graham Bantock himself concluded that a CBTF boat will beat any IOM as well as any fixed keel F100-no “claim” just a FACT! Of course on the water racing is the only way to know for sure but the facts are from a DESIGN STANDPOINT that canting keel technology has shown itself to be superior to fixed keel technology. The last F100 update was just a few weeks ago on this forum.
There are a couple of other projects under development or ready for production as well: the micro MOTH for which a testing update was posted recently on this forum and the X3 retracting hydrofoil F48 that will be produced shortly.
Development in some cases can take much longer than can be predicted but I have a track record of producing innovative first of their kind rc sailboats still not equaled anywhere: the America One, the Spinnaker 50 (using patented spinnaker technology designed, developed and produced by me: FACT)and the F3 hydrofoil using technology licensed to me by Dr. Sam Bradfield.
In addition, I developed and produced the first rc asymetric spinnaker system used on the Melges 24 and Flyer ? trimaran which ,incidently, was the first RC multihull ever to be equipped with a spinnaker.
Several members of the Firm including Greg and Dick have shown an utter disregard of the facts and have chosen instead to try to use inuendo, half truths and outright falsehoods to bolster their position. These are people who ,if you’ll notice, never post on their own-they are always REACTING to something probably because their knowledge of the technologies involved is so small as to be embarrasing. So beware when you hear BS like "nothing to back it up with " and check the facts for yourself.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
maybe I was wrong. canting keels in a IOM boat unless there is a get reduction of wieght. will not beat a IOM with a fixed keel. I dont believe it and for graham to say that, i would wonder why? it could be just another way for him to sell HIS stuff. which is fine, but dont try a sell it to a beginner, In the IACC class. they cheat for all its worth, and if they tought canting keels where worth it, i am sure they would take a huge penalty and use them. for I am going to stick with fixed keel because they work. and it is easy to build
cougar
Doug -
Please do not use me as a reference for your products! If anyone is interested in my honest opinion, they are free to email me at:
…and I will be happy to share my ideas, feelings and thoughts on your products and ideas.
Your ideas were never in question. The ability for you to actually PRODUCE them were. After waiting for 3 years for a production version of the F-48, most, including myself, have given up waiting for something to hit the water, and something that can be purchased. Maybe that’s why I haven’t sailed an F-48 Multihull - perhaps?
How someone can be such an authority on everything from spinnakers to canting keels to moving ballasts, to rig design, to hydrofoil theory?
It really is all “smoke & mirrors” until someone hears the sound of the prototype hitting the water, or the ability for someone to actually buy it.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
… a CBTF boat will beat any IOM as well as any fixed keel F100-no “claim” just a FACT! Of course on the water racing is the only way to know for sure …
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
I can’t help but laugh…[}:)]
This is all some of us have been saying. You say it, but don’t seem to even understand.
Keep putting words in my mouth Doug. Feel free. I just ask any one who even gives a dime to just read the post.
Cougar: Assume you had a fixed keel 1m boat and a canting keel 1m boat whith the same sail area and displacement going to windward. The canting keel boat will heel less, due to the weight being used more effectively as a countabalance, simple moments calculation, Right? Now if a boat is being sailed flater than the other, the mast is more vertical and a greater aspect of the sail area is presented to the wind, simple as that. The rig works more efectively upright, so the boat goes faster. Thats why you see ppl hiking on full size race boats.
Or you can reduce the displacement and/or increase the sail area of the canting keel boat and the boat heels the same amount, but it will have a higher sail area/displacement ratio than its fixed keel couterpart and therefore would be faster.
Thats a million miles off topic but I feel it needed clearing up.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
Who called my ability to produce in question? Dick Lemke? Just finishing three $3000 spinnaker boats which brings to almost twenty in the last three years. In the same period I have designed built and started testing a 16’ hydrofoil , two spinnaker equipped 68" trimarans. One canting keel foiler prototype and one on-deck power ballast system foiler prototype . Designed a retractable foil system. Designed built tested and produced four F3 hydrofoils
which still remain as the only rc multihull that you have ever sailed. Designed and completed the tooling for the X3 Formula 48 retractable foiler which along with the F100 is next in line for production. Arranged the exclusive licensing of CBTF;conceived of the F100CBTF and arranged for Graham Bantock to design it, arranged for David Hollom to do fin profiles, and conceived of and filed my FOURTH US letters patent.
And you mean to tell me in all that time the Acting Class Secretary of the Formula 48 Class has never built a single F48 and that the ONLY rc multihull you have ever sailed is one I designed and built?
Before going on about my ability to produce I should think you would look hard at you own shortcomings!!!
As to using you as a reference -give me a break- I was only paraphrasing a post from this very forum in which you praised both the Spinnaker 50 and the F3. Luckily for me --in case your story changes-David Goebel was there that day with you and remembers what you said.
You should spend some of your time on the Formula 48 Class which after 4 years(or so) is still not a recognized class and as Class secretary some of your pronouncements might have a little more credence if you actually had any rc multihull sailing experience.
It seems so counterproductive for you to spend time trying to diparage me when you A)- don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of my work and B) let your responsibilities slide as F48 Class Secretary to the detriment of the whole Class.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
The formula 48 class still isn?t recognized? With someone like you in it Doug, that?s not a big surprise. Who wants to associate with a megalomaniac.
-Dan
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Matthew Lingley
Cougar: Assume you had a fixed keel 1m boat and a canting keel 1m boat whith the same sail area and displacement going to windward. The canting keel boat will heel less, due to the weight being used more effectively as a countabalance, simple moments calculation, Right? Now if a boat is being sailed flater than the other, the mast is more vertical and a greater aspect of the sail area is presented to the wind, simple as that. The rig works more efectively upright, so the boat goes faster. Thats why you see ppl hiking on full size race boats.
Or you can reduce the displacement and/or increase the sail area of the canting keel boat and the boat heels the same amount, but it will have a higher sail area/displacement ratio than its fixed keel couterpart and therefore would be faster.
Thats a million miles off topic but I feel it needed clearing up.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
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Matthew,
Good explanation, but I think that you have tried to make it too simple. CBTF is not like having a crew hiking out. With CBTF you are adding an extra fin under the boat, which in RC sailing can be extremely slowing. You are not noting this extra drag and the possibility that if you want to maintain an equivalent VMG, you are surley adding drag with CBTF. I am not saying that the CBTF boat would not be faster, but I am saying that it?s still only an assumption that it will be.
You also have not mentioned in what winds there will be an advantage. Do you really think that an IOM with CBTF would be faster then one without in very light air? I do believe that cougar was in the thinking that Doug stated that the IOM would be faster with CBTF, not a f100 which I think he did mean.
Once again, it comes to the point that so many here are trying to make. These are all assumptions until proven on the water. That?s ALL that the so-called doubters, and even Doug now, have been saying.
I hope you yourself can do this. Are you thinking of building a CBTF boat?
First, one guy says:“Its your ability to produce that is called into question” So I answer that guy and then another pipes in with you have delusions of grandeur and tend to exaggerate"(megalomania).
Man, you can’t win for losing with some people!
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Cougar was not talking about cbtf, he was talking about canting keels, which do work. I know how cbtf works and I know it works on full size boats LOOK AT THE RESULTS FROM FULL SIZE RACING!!! Where does this bloody crazy idea that what works in full size won’t work for models? Ok you have to play with renolds numbers to get the foil sections right and to adjust and tweak the odd thing, but really theres no reason why it should not work. Give me a decent explanation on why sticking another foil under an r/c boat is any different to sticking another foil under any other boat and I might understand what your saying, but as far as I can see theres one hell of alot more pointing to it working than it not. Even one of the best iom designers recons it will work, and he has all the data from everyone he’s ever built and the programs to virtually test the design. Come on, give the guy a break.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
This stuff is posted on this forum in detail but incredibly Greg has chosen not to read it or does not understand it. Any canting keel system requires extra lateral resistance but since the boat can be built much lighter with more sail area in light conditions the design analysis shows clearly that the canting keel boat whether CBTF or daggerboard WILL BE FASTER THAN A FIXED KEEL boat in ALL conditions including light air!!! You have to do a design analysis and understand the results before you commit to building any boat; some people hear seem to think that design analysis is worthless and that one should race the boat and then design it. As many times as I tried to explain that it doesn’t work that way Greg still denigrates the dsign process AND ITS RESULTS from one of the best designers on the planet! No one SHOULD build a boat UNLESS they have done a thorough analysis of its predicted chacteristics first. All that has ever been mentioned here is that Grahams analysis predicted the performance noted above based on many things including years of design experience: racing will tell a tale in the end but the FACTS are that Grahams predicted performance for ANY canting keel boat is SUPERIOR in all conditions to any fixed keel boat the same length.
This IS a repetitive post due to the repetitive questions and statements previously made. The attempt has been to put the answer in a context that can be understood from the design point of view(and scientific point of view) contrasted with the frequent misquotes of “Claims” of superior performance. In other words we know the design is superior but the boat is not built yet so how could we know that the finished product has lived up to its design promise?
There is however a clear indicator of canting keel performance compared to fixed keel performance and it starts with the 21’ mini 6.5’s and goes on up: in full size sailing canting keels have shown unquestioned superiority to fixed keels–thats why almost all the big(and some small) ocean racing boats have one. And CBTF is proving to be the highest performance version of all canting keel systems…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Matt,
I do apologize. I was under the assumption that you were new to the hobby and for some reason I was even in the thinking that you don?t have an RC sailboat at this time. Am I wrong? If so, please sent me straight here.