Moth on Foils wins Nationals!

I have a bedroom full, ranging from a couple of 12"ers to a mini40. The reason I was introduced to this forum was because I showed doug some pics of a cat I’d just finished, that by chance fitted into the multione class (it was intended as a speed sailer).

Luff 'em & leave 'em.

Matthew: Greg’s advice to you is heart felt and well thought out. You might take some time to reflect on it.

Greg is also right when he says that the people that Doug attacks aren’t opposed to new technology, they are upset about years of overblown posts backed up by little in the way of real world results.

In the real world boat design is a long and hard process full of trial and error where details count and “big ideas” are just talk until they are proven on the water. I and a few others are in the process of tyring to develop a faster model keel bulb shape. I can tell you that even with the help of America’s Cup CFD programs and assistance from some very well know yacht designers the concept is far from proven and probably months away from production. And none of us would publically proclaim a “breakthrough” or deride existing technology until we had proven this concept in the real world in real races.

And, if you are considering a career in boat design, you might take a little more time examining the people you alienate and befriend. As opposed to Doug Lord for example, who claims to have once picked up Paul Cayard at the airport, I talk to Paul on a regular basis and am proud to consider him a friend. As opposed to to Doug Lord who talks about his views of how America’s Cup yachts should be designed, Jon Elmaleh does model work for America’s Cup syndicate designers. As opposed to Doug Lord who “develops” new r/c classes at the drop of a hat (none of which have been recognized anywhere) Rob Davis presides in the United States over the IOM class and has caused record growth in registations. And as opposed to Doug Lord who has never won (or designed a part or boat that has won) a single national or regional r/c yacht race, Greg V enters and finishes at the top in races in a number of different classes around the United States on a regular basis.

Finally, to talk about the specific technical topic at hand (is a canting ballast boat by definition faster than a fixed keel boat), again as opposed to Doug, those of us who have in the past been involved in design programs know there are many slips between theory and the real world.
First, as Greg tried to point out to you, you have to design the right hull and design and place the foils properly. Make them the wrong size or put them in the wrong place and you can have a disaster on your hands (This is so critical it might be why Doug has had to hire experts to design hulls and foils for him. Fact is, if you look at the hulls and appendages he has done himself you can see why he has had to hire others.) And no matter what the computer programs tell you, when you get to the real world you can still put things in the wrong place and not have a fast boat.

Second, assuming that you get all the theory right, what in fact no one has proved is whether or not a canting ballast system will allow an r/c boat to get around a race course faster than a boat with a fixed keel. On a long distance ocean racer you might tack once in a day. On an r/c boat you might have to tack three times in the course of thirty seconds. And if you have a canting keel boat canted the wrong way in the middle of an r/c sailboat race you will get left in the dust. Moreover, if you are concentrating on you keel position and not the wind shifts or the tactics of the boat next to you, you won’t be faster around the race course. It isn’t really relevant that in a straight line, in a specific wind, one boat is faster than another, the question is whether or not such a boat wins races in all conditions at all points of sail in the middle of a pack of 14 other boats. And that has been far from proven.

well said Roy

-Dan

“…people Doug attacks” Yeah right! Anybody can see your and Gregs direct personal attacks on me all over this forum. I never attack anyone unless it is in response to an attack by you, Greg, Dan Sherman, Dick Lemke and in the past Rob Davis. But I do return the fire and I think it is unfortunate that I have to but you engage in the politics of inuendo ,half truths and just plain falsehoods so often that I feel I should respond-sometimes in kind and sometimes with a little satire (see NO Class under New classes).
You say it takes years of development to come up with breakthrus but when I take years to develop a breakthru you say" no real results". There are many real verifiable results from my development work(see earlier post).I don’t race in existing recognized classes because I can race in new state of the art classes using tecnology not even legal in recognized classes.
So you’re developing a new keel bulb ,huh? Strikes me as kinda funny since the fastest keel bulb you’re likely to develop is the one you drop on your foot! At least based on your past promotion of the American Cup Class-what a joke.
I’ll show you a fast keel bulb–but I guess I better not say anything yet: BUT REMEMBER I SAID THIS!!!
As to Paul Cayard : when I arranged for America One to sponsor Sail Fest(the largest inland regatta in the US-at that time) I was privileged to meet and talk with Paul Cayard who is one of the greatest sailors in this country. And I have the greatest respect for John Elmaleh whose Laser I raced for a year and who agreed to have the first Laser Nationals at the same Sail Fest sponsored by America One.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

First, when has Dan ever attacked you? I?d like to be shown the light on that one.

You do attack Doug, you attacked me! When one day after a year of being one of the fools that defended you, I finally questioned you. That?s all it took for the insults to fly both in emails and in post here. If you want to question that, I?d be glad to dig up those posts that started it all between us. I might even have the emails also.

Please don?t forget, and all here should know, that I offered you a featured participation to the largest AMYA event in recent history, the Mystic Raceweek 2002. Informing you that over 3000 visitors would be coming per day for the six days, you said that you could not make it yourself,. I offered to receive any of your boats to put on a demonstration for you, but again you declined and to told me that someone in our area might want to offer one of the boats that you had sold them. Unfortunately there were never any names exchanged but for one. That person never even ordered a boat at that time, nor did he ever do so.

I am really most baffled on this one thing though. How are you doing all of these things that you claim that you are doing and still be here posting on this site, and many others as much as you are? Coming on 500 post here! That says something I think.

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

… Greg has chosen not to read it or does not understand it. Any canting keel system requires extra lateral resistance but since the boat can be built much lighter with more sail area in light conditions the design analysis shows clearly that the canting keel boat whether CBTF or daggerboard WILL BE FASTER THAN A FIXED KEEL boat in ALL conditions including light air!!! …

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Seriously, is it me, or is Doug just not able to read my post??

See the original post in this thread for new information on the spectacular and historic victory by Rohan Veal in the Moth Class Nationals-makes the off topic material here look like the trash it is!!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Doug, your original post had NOTHING to do with RC sailing, so as far as I’m concerned we’re doing just fine. It’s obvious Doug why you post such things here, and that’s to jab at whomever will take the bait. You already posted the identical post on an appropriate discussion board, boatdesign.net where it seems that some there are also getting their fill of you.

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

(1) Who called my ability to produce in question? Dick Lemke? And you mean to tell me in all that time the Acting Class Secretary of the Formula 48 Class has never built a single F48 and that the ONLY rc multihull you have ever sailed is one I designed and built? Before going on about my ability to produce I should think you would look hard at you own shortcomings!!!

(2) As to using you as a reference -give me a break- I was only paraphrasing a post from this very forum <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Since you open the door, let me point out a fact or two …

YOUR QUOTE #1: Below is a list of the “registered” members of the F-48 Class (note that two are unable to be verified) as of 12/31/2003 …

Holtrop, John
…H/B©- 4/8/02
Lemke, Dick
…H/B© - 7/13/01
<font color=“red”>Lord, Doug
…Microsail©D4Z </font id=“red”>- 7/13/01
<font color=“red”>Bonomi, Egmount **
…Microsail©D4Z </font id=“red”>- 8/28/03
<font color=“red”>Bonomi, Bro **
…Microsail©D4Z </font id=“red”>- 8/28/03
Rowley, Lincoln
…H/B (T) - 7/13/01
Lemke, Dick
…WaterResist(T) - 7/13/01
Baldacchino, Mark
…H/B Sold - (T) - 7/13/01
Hojnacki, William
…H/B (T) - 7/11/03
Sammis, Ian
…H/B (T) - 11/6/03
Rust, Andy
…H/B (T) - 10/4/03
Sammis, Ian
…H/B (T) - 11/6/03
Ronda, Jack
…H/B (T) - 8/14/03
<font color=“red”>Lord, Doug
…Microsail TX3 </font id=“red”>- 7/13/01
<font color=“red”>McCloskey, Michael **
…Microsail TX3 </font id=“red”>- 8/28/03

Here is legend for above…
Name: Last, First
Make & Type of boat:
…H/B = Home built or manufacturer
… (T) or ©=Trimaran or Catamaran configuration
… <font color=“red”>D4Z or TX3 (cat or tri trademarked by Microsail)</font id=“red”>
Date: Date when originally registered
** = CANNOT VERIFY THIS MEMBER !

So - Doug is known for smoke and mirrors, he has tried to point to my inability to build an F-48 - yet please note how many <font color=“red”>Microsail Products</font id=“red”> were registered by Doug in an effort (perhaps?) to inflate how many boats really are out there? As for myself - I have posted not only a photo of the boats I have been working on, but I also have posted a series of photos of their construction process. I have also posted the same of my MultiONE (1 Meter) boat as well. Has “anyone” seen any photos of either the D4Z or the TX3?

Doug indicates tooling is completed on the TX3 - which would seemingly infer that a “plug” of some sort exists… which would mean, much like his other projects, these two multihulls have undergone a series of testing and analysis - much like his other boats that are waiting to be released. We saw photos of his 16 foot skiff, his MicroMoth, and his Aeroskiff before it was abandoned. Most were on land, or just sitting in the water. None were doing the fantasic canting keel or “flying” that he announced!

What is strange (to me) is that the D4Z cats were “sold” to two brothers in Europe, yet they can’t be contacted. “Addressee Unknown” - and Doug is the one who furnished their addresses. Secondly, Doug indicates the D4Z cats were “sold” but no photos seem to be available in their finished form. And no photos even show on the Microsail website as product promotion for future sales. Very Strange indeed! Yet these same multihulls were submitted to me - and to AMYA for formal registration last year.

But of course, these are only half-truths - as Doug would be the first to admit!

YOUR QUOTE #2: If I made the post, then surely you will agree it is MINE ? As I originally noted - I will be the sole person to provide a personal opinion for your products that I tried. You DO NOT have that authority or permission to do that. My email adress was provided for anyone to contact me with questions or for my personal references. No one needs you to paraphrase or interpret what I posted. Readers are well able to read on their own!

As I said before <font size=“2”>DO NOT ASSOCIATE MY NAME AS A REFERENCE FOR MICROSAIL PRODUCTS OR IDEAS! </font id=“size2”>You have my eamil address (both home and at work) and you also have my phone numbers at home and at work. If you do not undertand what I wrote - please call me an I will assist you in clarifying anything you cannot comprehend.

is it me or is there a war going on between certian people. AND i will not name names. they know who they are. this is was supposed to be a formuum to exchage ideas. and not attack people. I do not know doug that well. I have never met him. but form what i can feel out hear is he like s to be on the cutting edge of techknowlogy… now greg I have seen your boat from your club and have talked with some members who know you. thay say good thing about you, what i am seeing here is alot of people bad mouthing each other. maybe doug is on to something here. we dont know untill he can be proven right or wrong, i knew a man in 82-83 who had an idea of cutting a keel and glueing it on upside down. they also called him nut and =crazy. I dont know if doug idea will work but i dont mind reading them. AND if i dont agree. i just plain dont do them. I am sorry is I have made anybody mad at me for this but i like to sail and sailors usualy are the best people in the world. i even like cris dickson

Dick, you were notified by e-mail as was Stan Abadie of refunds WITH INTEREST given to McCloskey and the Bonomi brothers regarding their boats.
Mr. McCloskey received a refund WITH INTEREST at my suggestion due the probable lateness* of his boat. He accepted it, reluctantly, and still wants a boat. The Bonomi Brothers also received refunds on their D4Z’s at my suggestion as a courtesy to them.
Nobody that purchases a microSAIL! boat gets a guaranteed delivery date but should I run seriously past the approximate delivery date I offer people the opportunity to get a refund WITH INTEREST. I don’t know the policies of other companies but I’m fairly certain that damn few would offer interest on a refund like I do!
I made the same offer to the aeroSKIFF owners who had pre ordered boats and to a person they opted to take the new F100 knowing that they might have to wait over a year!
One correction: the new microSAIL! multihull is the X3 not TX3 and updates have been published on this forum and on the website.
The priority of new boats is first: the F100CBTF,second the X3.In addition to their development routine production goes on and is the first priority. And the last priority is new development…
The D4Z may or may not be produced: it is a lot of fun sailing with the PBS but not as fast as a hydrofoil. There are pictures of the D4Z sailing but not with a wing tip rig and won’t be published for that reason. The new Sandy Goodall designed rigs for the X3 will fit the PBS equipped D4Z and then we’ll take pictures.
I still thank you for your previous positive comments about the Spinnaker 50 and F3-still the only rc multihull you’ve ever sailed.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

<font color=“maroon”>[navy]<u>FORMULA 48 (1.2 Meter):</u></font id=“maroon”>

Locating cross-beam position connection
Download Attachment: [ smPortBowonBed.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Dick Lemke/200414152626_smPortBowonBed.jpg)
59.46KB

Basic F-48 with “M” Class main to locate standing rigging.
Download Attachment: [ F-48HTWfull.JPG](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Dick Lemke/200414152856_F-48HTWfull.JPG)
66.8KB

<font color=“green”><u>MultiONE (1 Meter):</u></font id=“green”>

Testing/evaluation for proper floating position.
Download Attachment: [ smWet1.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Dick Lemke/200414153113_smWet1.jpg)
25.7KB

Sail design mock-up and analysis
Download Attachment: [ smStarBeamSailProto.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Dick Lemke/200414153426_smStarBeamSailProto.jpg)
39.97KB

Completed home-made sail set
Download Attachment: [ smSailSet1.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Dick Lemke/200414153524_smSailSet1.jpg)
30.05KB

These posted to show construction on my boats actually exists!

The following is how I wanted to write this to illustrate to Dick the unfairness of his recent campaign:

Dick, since you started your recent campaign you have been saying that the only things that count are boats on the water and yet after five years the only rc multihull you have ever sailed is one of mine.
What part of “on the water” don’t you understand?

But I changed my mind. I actually think you are doing a great job on your boats and I think your full size multihull racing and sailing experience more than makes up for any temporary deficit in rc multihull experience.I think you should concentrate on your boats so I can concentrate on mine,ok?
Good luck with your boats!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

See the original post under this topic for an update as of today on the fantastic doings in the Moth Class and its relevance to rc sailing.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

dick
that formula 48 boat looks great. did you design that. pardon the lagauge but shit. those sails look great. are there any pictures of it floating?
wow
i am not a fan of cat or tris. I just dont understand them i guess. but it looks realy good
congrats
cougar

Thank you for your views. Much appreciated.

1> The F-48 with the wooden “gull-wing” cross beams is a design that belongs to Jean Margail from France. Jean is an “AIRBUS” engineer, and enjoys working on ground effect theory. In addition to his design of this 1.2 Meter boat, he also has a design for a 2 Meter catamaran. Both designs are avialble for free from his web site. The boat design is called WATER RESIST and I will be happy to furnish anyone with is web address for your own download. You will need a way to print the pplans full size - so keep in mind the boat is 4 feet (1.2 mtr.) long x 4 feet (1.2 mtr.) wide. You will need to have a large format printer, take it to Kinkos - or tape up a bunch of 8.5 x 11 sheeets of copy paper.

The other boat with gray hull and white floats (primer) is a design of my own and it is 1 Meter in length. It is designed to accept the rig and sails from most any 1 Meter monohull class boat. I have a series of photos of the “hulls” floating as I checked for waterline locations, and had to tip the stern up on the floats a bit so they touched water between the cross beams as the boat heels, instead of near the rear cross beam. The pink/white sails were recently completed just before Christmas, and I still need to add attachment points on the main, corner patches, and also a headboard. Also, living up here near Minneapolis/St. Paul, the water tends to get “hard” this time of the year, so - no - I do not have performance, on-water pics yet with the rig up. This design, by the way, allows a builder to make either a cat configuration with two main hulls, or a tri configuration with one main hull and two floats. It is also designed to make from solid foam - glass covered, or use the foam as plugs for a hollow set of floats and hull. Design name is “IMPULSE”.

An after thought - aren’t you from up around the Toronto area? Perhaps not, but for whatever reason - I guess you should be[:D] If not - sorry !

Anyway, there are a few guys up that way that race big boats during the summer - Etchells and I-14’s as I recall, and dabble with r/c boats in Spring and Fall. I know of a carbon, fixed keel F-100 up that way, and also a few are playing with 1 Meter multihulls.

If you are in that area, let me know and I’ll tie you in with several as it may provide a place to play and experiment with your designs. I think Marko Magic is also from in that area, but can’t be sure. He is deep into IOM so it might also provide an outlet for your design testing with him and his local sailors. I’m sure someone from the IOM group could put you in touch with him as well.

Regards

dick
i know marko well. he has beaten me many times:-( i am 1 hour south of toronto. and you are right he is deep into IOMs. that is how we met. he designs heis own IOM and so do I. I think keith richards race the big boats but i am not to sure. where is the f100? i would like to see it.
thanks
cougar

Cougar -

I’m really balancing on the edge of an “Off-Topic” response here since the original topic was about the full size MOTH Class.

Take a look over on the forum for NEW CLASSES and I’ll post over there. Makes more sense to put the F-100 stuff with the F-100 stuff !

ok you are right sorry . i know it is tough to stay on topic around here
but you are right
thanks
cougar