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21

Peter’s decision to say what he did this morning was unfortunate: saying that he was disinclined to sell me one of the Aussie boats because I would patent it and prevent his club from saling them. Aside from being laughably pitiful it was an unprovoked assaualt on my character.
I felt that I should inform Peter and others of the reasons why I(and a friend) had decided not to purchase one of his boats. His description of the boat as being built of aluminum and fiberglass was very disappointing. Thats how the first multi’s in this country were built thirty years ago. The fact that they are less costly and that Graham Bantock uses aluminum masts in the IOM class has no bearing on what should be a modern high performance multihull and which was touted as so by Peter himeself (under Combining Multihull classes). The fact is that aluminum cross arms and masts are a big detriment to performance in wind and waves and a beginner that would sail one of those boats equipped like that in strong winds and waves would find that out.
Thats why I have been an advocate for use of high tech materials in multihulls: because it really matters and directly affects performance. Failure to recognize tht is a big mistake and is tantamount to reinventing the wheel: making the same historical mistakes with multihulls in 2004 that were made years and years ago…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

22

Doug

Are you saying that if two boats are of the exact same design, but one is made of carbon and Kevlar, and the other one of fiberglass, the carbon/Kevlar boat will have the performance edge simply because of what is made of? And if so how much of an edge do you believe it to be?

-Dan

23

Howdy all!

I’m having a heck of a time reading these posts! Man, I thought college and high-schoolers could be bad but geez…

Anyway, one question: Mr. Lord, I realize you seem to have enough traffic to deal with, but I have a question about this quote:

“In full size multihull racing an “aluminum and fibergalss” boat would have zero chance whatsover.”

I was wondering just exactly what you meant by full-size? Were you referring to ORMA sized multi’s as full-sized? Unless I’m mistaken, which I might be, I thought the majority of high performance catamarans were “glass and aluminum” construction.

Anyay, just wondering what the intent behind the quote was. I don’t really want to get the wrong idea.

Thanks

Graham

24

Basicaly yes, but the most important part of what I’m saying is that if you took two identical multihulls and one had aluminum cross arms and an aluminum mast and the other had carbon cross arms and a carbon mast and you raced them in strong wind and waves the carbon boat would win-all other things being equal.
A carbon or carbon kevlar hull would help especially if the boat used a backstay. While it is possible for an expert modeler to approach the weight of hand laid carbon/kevlar it is almost impossible to approach vacuum bagged weights though there are two guys that I know of who claimed to have done this.
Torsional stiffness in a multihull is critical -especially an rc multihull and you simply can’t gain the stiffness at reasonable weight thru aluminum that you can thru carbon. In areas where its light weather all the time it may make little difference but in normal sailing venues it will make a big difference-and the stronger the wind and bigger the waves the more differece it makes.
And this goes to the heart of rc multihull sailng-old style glass and aluminum multis will pitchpole much more frequently than carbon boats in the conditions I’ve described possibly leading to frustration with the whole scene.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

25

Graham, I was definitely thinking of the 60’s; there are plenty of cruising and one design multihulls built of glass and aluminum. If you tried that kind of construction in an open racing class like the 60’s you’d get murderated for the same reasons I mentioned below.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

26

I would like to reply to that “THEORY” if I may - based on experience - not conjecture.

18 Square Meter big boat catamaran class (5.5 meters long - with 18 sq. meters of sail area) 1983 North Americans, Traverse City, Michigan.

Solid wing sail boat takes first place at 310 lbs. all up weight. Woodstrip /glass construction.

Plywood, honeycomb plastic core sandwich, soft sail boat with aluminum/carbon mast and weighing 262 lbs. finishes in second place overall.

Fiberglass (solid - not sandwich) factory production boat, soft sail, aluminum mast and beams, NO carbon, solid glass rudders and boards, and weighing 410 lbs. finishes 4th. place overall - and beats several ultralight, composite built boats.

At least here is actual, on-water experience - not conjecture, not theory, not “in my opinion” which Doug fails to use.

Further - it has been hinted at (and posted too - I believe) that in some cases, it is an actually better performing boat if the weight is a bit more, as it tacks and sails through the light spots better than a boat weighing less.

Finally Doug points to boats that will pitchpole, BECAUSE they are glass and aluminum? Hmmmm - bet I can produce photos or confirmation that all-carbon multihulls also pitchpole. As I noted in my response to Doug on the Multihulls discussion site - all boats (to my knowledge) have masts set at from 0 to maybe 3 degrees rake. My prototype will have the mast raked aft nearly 13 degrees. WHY? To see if it reduces pitchpoling!

If we agree that pitchpoling occurs when the mast moves forward driving the forces of the sail forward and downward (???) then if a mast is stepped at 0 (zero) degrees and the bow is pressed down by 2 degrees because of wind in sails, the the mast top and sail have also moved forward 2 degrees (forward rake). As the bows are pushed down further, the results are the mast is moved even further forward, until the hulls cannot recover. Now, let’s suppose the pitchpole takes place at - oh, say 8 degrees forward rake. If I have a mast raked back 13 degrees, I would submit that there could exist an additional 5 degrees of of forward mast movement BEFORE the mast even reaches vertical. It then requires <u>an additial </u>8 degrees of forward movement before pitchpole takes place.

That could mean, that it would take the inital 13 degrees of mast rake PLUS the added 8 degrees (total of 21 degrees of mast movement forward) to induce the same physical reaction that a normal boat would have with a vertical mast.

Now, I’m not a mathematician, so will leave the number crunching up to Dan and Will if they feel so inclined - but I certainly would not be so stupid (that’s right - stupid) to post that pitchpoles are caused by aluminum and fiberglass construction!

What a Bunch of Horsepucky !!!

27

hi all
just wanted to check into school. i was just wondering how this post came into being about 2 companies? and not about a class size?. i think the water line should be 1 meter. and monohull.
but what do i know. i just design my own boats
cougar

28

So now you’ve sunk to calling names ,huh Dick?!
You left out(of course) the most important part of what I said: wind and WAVES !!! To try and argue that a mast/rig that is TWICE(aluminum is twice as heavy as carbon) as heavy as another in conditions where the boat is pitching in waves will be equal or superior is nuts- ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL!
Contrary to your almost total lack of experience sailing rc multihulls I’ve been lucky enough to sail several different multihulls in very rough conditions and I know the difference that kind of weight aloft can make. But its not just the weight aloft its the stiffness and weight of the whole structure in those conditions-stiffness that is best achieved using a carbon cross arm(s) structure.
Thats where your lack of experience sailing these boats really comes in: a model has lost a large amount of its inherent pitch stability BY DESIGN because of scale effect. And I don’t mean because it may or may not be scaled from a larger boat I mean because of its physivcal size compared to larger multi hulls. So if you aggravate an already bad situation by having excess weight aloft the situation deteriorates rapidly.
Again, a model with an aluminum mast will have TWICE the weight aloft of the carbon rig! An rc model with a heavy rig would be very likely to pitchpole in a blink of an eye in those conditions. I know because I’ve done it! Same boat, same conditions two different rigs… You don’t want weight aloft in wind and waves most especially not in a small multihull.
Now , if you sail in light air and flat conditions all the time it doesn’t make a whole lot of difference-except when you go up against a well designed carbon boat…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

29

anybody like the idea of a 1meter waterline?
cougar

30

Doug - amazing what you can read INTO or OUTOF a topic when you want!

Let’s see - in every instance I have used Doug, Doug Lord or Mr. Lord ! To my knowledge, with one exception, those are the names you are known by on the different forums to which you subscribe.

In the above topic - the you once again mis-read and want to take personally, that is definitely your option to interpret as you want to - but please point out where I called you a “name”! W.T.F. ???

31

Gosh, Dick, I must have misread your post where you used the word “stupid” in connectionn with somethng I said. I’m so sorry to have falsely accused you!!!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

32

Apology accepted, since it was a (descriptive) adjective referring to a statement.

33

Cougar, as an observer of the No Class the answer to your question is No, No

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

34

ok thanks
it was just an idea . i was trying to keep things going but a no is a no
what waterline are people looking at?
cougar

35

I am going to completely ignore the BS that Doug is going on about over and over again. The easiest way to solve this problem is that I will build a boat the way we do here and send it to Dick. Now Doug you get into building your X3 and when it is finished let us( Dick and
myself know) and the match race can happen.
I reckon that Dick will have years to learn exactly how to sail the Australian boat. He will probably blow out at least one set of sails waiting for the X3 to get on the water.
As for your thinking that carbon is better than aluminium, our current state champion has a boat with carbon masts and pitchpoles as often as the rest of us do. The problem with pitchpoling usually occurs when the “nut on the sticks” isn’t paying attention.
The conditions we sail in here vary from 5 knots to 25 knots but we are normally sailing in 10-15 knots. We have waves at our location, but because we sail on a lake they don’t get that big, depending on conditions somewhere between flat water and 6 inches.
These things are models and as so are designed to be sailed on lakes and not in open water.
I am yet to see photos or footage of r/c boats sailing in decent waves.
By the way
I never said that our boats were the fastest in the world. You can read that into it if you like that is your choice.
The guy who visited us from the UK borrowed a boat that sailed with us, and stated that it was livelier than what he normally sailed in the UK. He also said that he had raced against the French and had done pretty well. Which is to say that in his opinion the boat that he borrowed was quicker than his. So you can easily dejuice from his comments that the Australian boat would give the French a run for there money.
Until it is possible to get boats from all over the world sailing in the same location, nobody is going to know which ones are the quickest all that I do know is that the boats we sail are quick.
Peter

36

Peter, until yesterday I had never even so much as criticized you; I had never made any derogatory comments about you in any way. Then I get up and read a post by you, completely out of the blue where you say that you had thought better about SELLING me a boat because you were convinced I would patent it and prevent your guys from sailing their own boats. You implied I would do this because I was too lazy and incompetent to design and develop my own boat. This was COMPLETELY UNPROVOKED though completely silly attack on me personally ,on my character and on my design ability. Best I can see you did this with malice and for god knows what reason.
I then responded that I and another multihuller had been considering purchasing one of your boats but had changed our mind when you described how they were built-using technology first used on rc multihulls in the states thirty years ago. For anyone to think that a glass and aluminum multihull is EVEN CLOSE to state of the art is the height of self delusion!!! A direct quote by you from an earlier post:" I think that the boats we sail here in our club will challenge and beat any other boat on the water again two or three meter excluded."
Why you chose the course of action you did with me is open to speculation but I find it dissapointing and offensive.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

37

Mr Doug Lord,
I have read what you have posted here and what other people have posted here as well and I found what Peter has written to you is to be correct.Why don’t you stop reading what you want to read and start reading what is actually written. I am sick and tired of getting on this forum and reading the self serving,pig headed,narrow minded stuff you are posting.
If anyone posts something which is different to what you believe you make a big song and dance about it and you change the subject to suit yourself…that in my opinion is extremely childish and pathetic…I am an Australian and I have seen these boats Peter is talking about and I have seen the other boats made out of carbon fibre and to be quite honest the boats sail equally the same…I am very disappointed in you…I was informed that you were a very nice gentleman and now after reading just about everything you have written my opinion of you has changed.
I have never been so mad…how dare you critise something which you have never seen or sailed and how dare say that Australians are behind the times …Mr Lord at least we make boats and sail them and have proof of it…not like some.
The men who sail with Peter are working class men who have families to support…they sail for the fun and the love of the sport.
The club Peter sails at had a person who was just like you and he built boats and sold them internationally and after losing time after time with his so called great boats he left the club and went to a different class(he built the type of boat that you are going on about with the foilers,twisty rigs,flex top rigs etc.) he used the technology from the states and europe but as Peter has told you in past these aren’t used over here.
Mr Lord Australia and America are two different countries and they have different sailing conditions,what works over here may not work over there and vise versa, Peter has given his opinion on the sailing conditions over here and the things which they are using over here and until you come over here Please stop telling Australians what the weather and there conditions are doing and what is good for them.
I am mad and disappointed that someone of your knowledge of r/c racing and who has a fairly good reputation can be so critical of others.

I hope in the future you actually read the posts and if you can’t read them then I suggest you get your glasses checked or if you don’t have glasses then get some.

Kylie

38

Mr. Vale, same to ya! I have never attacked you or Peter in any way until Peter’s unprovoked attack on my character earlir in this thread. Then I simply responded as to my opinion of the boats in question which I only voiced as a direct responce to the personally offensive junk posted by Peter. Seem like some of you guys have a knack for that sort of thing!
Peter made the wild claims I quoted earlier for boats that are by no means state of the art according to Peter’s dscription of them.
What a shame that you condone the kind of outright personally offensive comments made earlier by Peter!!!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

39

Just read the title thread to this post. I think this your own can of worms here Doug. Seems that you started this very negative thread, and now that some are putting it back in your lap, and now your freaking out.

Seems that Peter’s first post stated…
?. I was checking out the old topics and thought this one needed a comment thrown in. After reading several posts in many different topics it seems that the NO CLASS is perfectly discribing what comes out of microsail at the moment.

[:-bulb]Maybe Peter and now Kylie have taken time to read some of the over 700 post here by you and have come up with their own opinions that you are a in fact problem person? But of course they might just be as stupid as the majority of all of us here, and others that refuse to even come here any more, in thinking this ?.?

40

Doug you have made out that here in australia we don’t sail in strong winds. We learn how to sail in strong winds. I used to sail in an olympic class boat and we used to sit on the beach waiting for minimum 25 knots to come in so that we could go out and have fun.
Relating to big boats for a minute. In the Admirals Cup of 1979, there was several lives lost which is extremely unfortunate but the 3 Australian boats sailed through the hurricane like conditions and won. A Sydney to Hobart race a few years back had conditions that were “the worst seen in any major sailing event”. There were breakages and many boats were lost due to the conditions. The rules were changed as part of the reason boats were lost was because they were to hi-tec. Technology is great, if it is used in the right way.

Australia has some of the best boat builders and designers in the world here. John McConaghy, Steve Carter and Iain Murray just to name a few. You say that we are years behind. Who designed the current America’s Cup class? An Australian.

If you think that my posts addressing your critisisms of what others post are “personal attacks” then you have no idea what a personal attack is. This forum is for ideas to be shared commented on and discussed in a “friendly” manner. New comers to r/c sailing don’t need to be told what they would like to do won’t work. I ask you have you tried every single idea that is posted on here? If you haven’t why knock someone elses ideas? I bet when you first started sailing, whether r/c or full size boats, you made mistakes and designed some boats that were flops. Everybody has to start somewhere, and that somewhere does not have to be using a Doug Lord creation.
We use fibreglass and aluminium on our boats as it makes for affordable sailing. Some members use Bantock aluminium masts on there boats, they perform quite well. This twist factor that you say is a problem with aluminium beams in wind and waves, the carbon fibre boat that sails with us has carbon fibre “round tube beams” and it twists more than the ones with aluminium beams.
You are (as I understand it) very keen to see the multihull class in the U.S grow and become strong. The only person that I can see that is really making a major contribution to it is Ian Sammis.
The other point is, you have stated that the Europeans are the world leaders in r/c multihulls. On what facts are you basing this statemant?
Sure there technology may be very good, we had a builder who was a member of our club that got plans and the latest technology from Europe and America.He spent countless hours learning how to use it, but when the boats hit the water, they didn’t perform in our conditions.
I think the whole point of r/c sailing is, get your boat on the water, sail it and have fun.
The first thing that you need to get a class established is boats on the water sailing. You don’t need to have boats worth thousands of dollars to do this, it’s strength of numbers that get people interested and the amount of enjoyment that is being had.
Peter