Mod(s): Please delete or move this to the PUB!

[-crzwom] This class is brought to you by the firm of Lembordilev. It is apparently the reverse of a development class but I’m not sure:
SA-not more than mine
Rules: NO movable ballast including canting keel, NO butterfly, NO gizmo, NO wing mast, NO multihulls(apparently do to the firms EXTENSIVE lack of multihull sailing experience), NO reefing system, NO squaretop mains,NO daggerboards,NO centerboards, NO cassette rudders, NO cassette daggerboards, NO JPT,NO Hoyt jib boom,NO rotating Masts, NO full battens,NO booms deeper than 1/16", NO more than 1.75 radio channels,No battery lighter than 1 pound with more voltage than 4.8v,No carbon, NO Kevlar,NO canting mast and/or rudder,NO symetrical spinnakers, NO asymetrical spinnakers,NO twin rudders, NO trim tabs,NO gybing daggerboard,NO kFOIL,NO transom hung rudders ,NO water
ballast,NO square top jibs. NO twin keels.Absolutely NO PART or DEVICE used on full size sailboats after 1930 maybe be used in this class!
And finally, last but not least, in keeping with the Spirit of the NO Class: no discussions of the lack of or excess of technology may be engaged in by any member of this class at any time at any place on any forum on pain of being BANNED from the NO Class class.Discussion ,assuming that those with NO Class could engage in one, is dangerous and can lead to the poisoning of young minds doing irrepairable damage to the NO Class( not to mention the corrupting of said young minds).
Furthermore, all boats must be raced and the results posted before the boat is designed or conceptualized.
According to the three Chief Founders of the firm Lembordilev
any attempt to usurp these guidlines will result in unmercifull slander, scurrilous
personal attack, inuendo , half truths and the removal of your DNA.
Ah, anybody tried this class yet?

Thanks Doug - [:(!]

kind of personal and significantly void of any redeeming qualities - but typical!

I was continuing to support your own personal topic thread for all of your repetitive posts before, but guess I must align myself with a few of the other posters, and suggest (strongly) that if you can’t take criticism; if every disagreement becomes a personal attack; that every time we ask a question it is met by some sarcastic comments such as these, … then by all means … I would call for you to be banned from the forum until you can “learn to get along and play well with others!”

Seems like you didn’t learn from your previous situation, so maybe you’ll have to resort to an alias (again) to get back to the forum.

Time for moderators ? <font size=“3”>Hell Yes!!!</font id=“size3”> Especially if Chad can’t get this kind of crap to end.

The above views do not necessarily reflect the personal views of the members of the “FIRM” - who, by the way consist of more than three.

Otherwise, your post is still the <font color=“red”>S.O.S.</font id=“red”> - only in negative format.

Stick with it man.

I don’t mind all your posts. I find them entertaining. At least somebody like you has some imagination about what can be done in Model yachting. People can decide for themselves, and choose to read your posts or not read them.

Good luck with the No class.
(Hey maybe we could make the No class an actual class but with fictitious boats with fictitious races and…)

Now, Now, Dick,
Ease up there, you’re the one sounding a bit… upset. If you don’t like Doug’s posts, don’t read Doug’s posts.

Shoot, our society allows “comics” to “newscasters” pretty much say ANYTHING about anyone… and by golly, that First Amendment thing let’s them get away with it (within limits and the Courts at times).

As long as we’re not talking about … Horse racing, or Nascar, or Martha Stewart’s or Rush Limbaugh’s habits on these boards and ARE talking about something to do with Model Yachting, be it amazing new developments in whatever, or just developments in whatever, OR HOW MUCH FUN I HAD SAILING MY BOAT “X” or What I learned from Pete at “whereever” or whatever, why do we need moderators?

Shoot, I could upset a lot of folks and volunteer (and maybe even be selected by Chad) to moderate and maybe choose to remove every one of Lester Gilbert’s posts… ([:D]just kidding Lester, I’d never do such a thing)
and don’t you know, I’d have a WORLD of grief coming down on me…

Take humor as humor and ignore it if doesn’t make you laugh, satire as satire, irony as … well you get the idea.
I know, I’ll moderate the board and not allow ANYONE to post unless they can prove to me they sailed this month… even a landyacht or iceboat (for us frozen norther’s that is…)
And by golly, if they don’t share my viewpoint
BAM, they’re off the boards…

Fair Winds,
David Goebel

Dear Mr. Lord: I believe the term “No Class” belongs particularly and specifically to you…

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by webskipper

Now, Now, Dick,
Take humor as humor and ignore it if doesn’t make you laugh, satire as satire, irony as … well you get the idea.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Dave - I can take humor and sarcasim very well - especially when they are given and in the “context” in which they are made. Unfortunately, once again, Doug has shown he is not abject to hitting below the belt and suggesting it is “humor”. Humor is fine, and perhaps I might have even enjoyed it, had it not been made “personal” and had my name and few others who may tend to disagree with Doug shown up in the post. Perhaps, you will one day make one too many criticisms of Doug, and will find yourself in a similar position - I hope not, but I can’t guarantee it - and one just has to look at the specific individuals … disagree and you are immediately on “his” short list.

To John (and Dave as well) - interesting you would suggest I just “skip over” the posts he makes and ignore them. Tell me - Didn’t it make it difficult to maintain the integrity of the topic when I removed “my” posts? So what is the difference - remove portions of a complete topic - or skip over a dozen topic posts of the same thing - spread all over the forum and nearly every topic thread, … well… which ever way it is done, it isn’t conducive to the ongoing interest or understanding of a topic - but of course, in Doug’s case, there are only a few topics he can manage to post - which he does repetitively.

In the future I will make every attempt to veil my remarks in the guise of “humor” as Doug does. Will be interesting.


Since you are here, I thought I’d ask you a question if you don’t mind. With all due respect, as I do put you on a pedestal for all that you do for the AMYA, I ask this with hopes that you don?t misinterpret it. I really don’t want to put you on the spot, but why did you put your Spinnaker 50 up for sale so soon after you acquired it. Since you are the only one here that owns and sails this boat, I would like to know your true impressions on how it sails? If this is putting you on the spot I apologize and you don?t need to answer, but I would really like to know.

You’re putting me on the spot, but I’m a pretty open person I think.
(Huh, Dick, yes I’ve asked Doug to rein in the promotion, but, I see
Chevy Truck ads on TV everyday (And I pay for those ads…<G>))
Back to the Spinnaker 50…
I didn’t put my Spinnaker 50 up for sale “so soon after acquiring it”
I’d had it for some time before I considered even selling it. I put
it on the market during a period when I had three sons in, or trying
to go to college and my personal business (I’m self employed) wasn’t
producing enough income and I was hoping for a quick, (excessively high)
E-Bay sale, none of the offers were even close to what I’d accept.

I’ve sailed the boat on many occasions and enjoyed it thoroughly. IT IS
a VERY technical boat, Doug’s directions should be followed explicitly
when setting up the radio as I’ve temporarily “broke” it twice by over
torquing the spinnaker downhaul using the computer radio trim adjustments
(where it keeps track of just how many trim adjustments you make before
they’re all finalized…<G>)
Dick Lemke was with Chris Traiser and I one day when we sailed it and the
Foiler up in MN and I think he’d agree the boat sailed just great, the
Spinnaker sets and douses just great, and once the skipper gets the hang
of the spinnaker steering function on the AWESOME 8 ch (now a 9 ch) radio
it’s easy to sail and highly adjustable (whilst sailing out there on the

Anyone want to contribute the Goebel Family college fund now, all three
of my boys (19, 20, 21) are still in college…<G>)?

Fair Winds all,
I wish the naysayers the best, but often wonder why???
I think I’ll go away again for a while…
David Goebel

Fair Winds,
David Goebel

first things first.
the starting topic was very personal. and I for one do not think it was called for. and the resposne it got , was what it deserved, i do not know doug. but i like what he post and do find it intrestings. altough he keeps pushing canting keels alot. that is what he believes in. I for one , do not undertsand them. but i will try one on , of my old IOM. poeple laugh at ben lexen, when he came to new york with an upside down keel. maybe we should just take a step back and let doug prove he is right. after all my hero ben , proved he was right

I’d like to see plans for a No class boat. It sounds like it would be very affordable to put together a fleet. Maybe it will turn out to be the latest rage in beginner boats.

Will paint be allowed? All colors, or just some? If I may, in keeping with the spirit of the class, I propose that boats be either black or white.

[-crzwom] Black or white-hmmm-certainly worth considering since grey areas seem so hard to find.
But ,perhaps, in keeping with the so-called Philedelphia Experiment of the 40’s these boats best be invisible…[:-jump]

this is realy getting childish
people . if you are looking for a new class. may i suggest helping develope a new class . the IACC20 class is looking for smart guys to help with rules and drawings and naything else. we have only 5 members right now. we could use more

I was checking out the old topics and thought this one needed a comment thrown in. After reading several posts in many different topics it seems that the NO CLASS is perfectly discribing what comes out of microsail at the moment.
Doug you have asked me for information and costs etc to get one of our mini40 to you. I can’t understand with your extensive knowledge of the r/c sailing seen why you would want a boat from someone who has only 12 years experience with r/c boats. Could it be that you just couldn’t be bothered by the hassle of actually having to build a F-48/mini40 to prove the claims you make and would much rather get a boat from some other source, test it and if it works, take out an international patent to stop the original designers building there own boats. With so many ™ that you apparently have, and with your opinion of those of use who are doing or suggesting what doesn’t seem right to you, maybe we had better forget the idea of a boat from Australia getting into your hands.
Anybody heard of UGG BOOTS?
You constantly go on and on about how wonderful canting keels would be and how technologically advanced this invention is and that invention is.
There is a saying here that says"put up or shut up" because unless there is physical prove, and as I have said before, ideas on paper, in a computer or in someones head are only that IDEAS.
If you want to put me or anybody else who makes “personal attacks” on you in there place, build something that has
(a) an already formed class
(b) your frequently bragged ldeas on board
© a boat of that class to test against
Post the results with pictures to prove the results,and then maybe those of use how are sick of reading about your IDEAS will lay off.

Peter, you know you’re really something! I guess the almost 20 spinnaker boats-the first of their kind ever produced don’t count ,huh? And the first production fully submerged hydrofoil? And the first 2 meter to ever have a spinnaker?
I can assure you that the only reason either of us up here considered(then rejected) the idea of buying one of your boats was to race it publically to illustrate to you exactly where you boat stands speed wise. But neither of us could justify the money for a boat obviously built to such a low standard-even to call your bluff!
I have never “attacked” you in any way and yet you post something like this–full of venom with No Facts and No Class!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Doug get off your soapbox. Read the post and understand what it is saying. What class of already existing boats does the spinnaker 50 fit into?
And where is the prove that the 2 meter that you have built is up to scratch.
You sit there sprouting how good your boats are, but there is posts on this forum everywhere, if you are able to read that are asking for the same information that I am.
The boats that we build are made out of fibreglass and aluminium so what, at least they’re affordable to everybody including chidren. We are in r/c sailing for the fun of it. Building boats doesn’t have to cost $2000, personally if I was considering spending that sort of money, I know of plenty of real boats I could buy for not much more.
The boats that we make may not be the fastest in the world (I have never said they were) but at least we can sail against other boats in the same class built by other people and enjoy ourselves.
So get your X3 out of your head or your computer or where ever this wonderful thing is and build and test it against a boat that already exist so that we can all see for ourselves if your ideas are as good as you say they are.
As for building a boat that fits into an already existing class(mass produced boats like Fairwind, Victoria etc apart for the moment)I’m talking about IOM, Marblehead, 10 Rater, EC12, A class or F48/mini40 to give you an example.
Now as for personal attacks, if you would like me to start down that track no problem.

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

But neither of us could justify the money for a boat obviously <font color=“red”>built to such a low standard</font id=“red”>-even to call your bluff!
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

<font color=“red”><font size=“3”>Huh ???</font id=“size3”></font id=“red”>

How did you manage to come to this conclusion without even owning one?

Seems you now are doing what you accuse the rest of us of doing - making statements NOT based on facts - Gee, could this be construed as innuendo, half-truths, un-educated guess, 100% wrong assumptions?

Please explain “HOW” you know the standards to be low - since it is your “quote”?

First you are all excited by a cost you described as so very low, Your want to buy not one - but two, then when freight is added it too expensive - but you put the blame on low standards.

Ahhh Doug - just another example of why we tire from all your double-talk !

But back to yet another question that will fail to be answered … HOW DO YOU KNOW QUALITY LEVEL WITHOUT HAVING BOUGHT, SEEN OR EVEN TOUCHED THE BOAT - especially you being the guy who took offense when asked to PROVE your many ideas on the water?

Peter himself described his construction as “aluminuman fiberglass”. None of the top rc multihulls, that I know of, are built using those materials(particularly aluminum for crossarms and masts) because of weight and stiffness issues.
Peter made the comment that I would steal his design if he sent me a boat so I thought it appropriate to mention why I decided against the boat. It does have advantages in cost but not in competition. In full size multihull racing an “aluminum and fibergalss” boat would have zero chance whatsover.
I believe that in rc racing in Europe it has been conclusively shown that the same is true. Aluminum cross arms and masts are twice the weight for half the stiffness-not competitive with carbon at all. Fiberglass hulls cannot compete with kevlar/carbon laminates especially using the most modern techniques.
“Aluminum and fiberglass” represents(nearly) the lowest standard of construction for a modern multihull that one could conceive of…
UPDATE:You might be able ,with expert modelling technique, to equal the weight of a hand laid carbon kevlar hull but you’d be hard pressed to compete with a vacuume bagged hull.
Aluminum for cross arms and masts is simply a bad idea unless your priority is cost at the expense of performance.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

Peter himself described his construction as "aluminuman fibergals"s. <font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”>None of the top rc multihulls that I know of are built using those materials because of weight and stiffness issues.
<font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”>Peter made the comment that I would steal his design if he sent me a boat so I thought it appropriate to mention why I decided against the boat. It does have advantages in cost <font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”>but not in competition. <font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”>In full size multihull raceing an “aluminum and fibergalss” boat would have zero chance whatsover.
I believe that in rc racing in Europe it has been conclusively shown that the same is true. Aluminum cross arms and masts are twice the weight for half the stiffness-not competitive with carbon at all. <font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”> Fiberglass hulls cannot compete with kevlar/carbon laminates especially using the most modern techniques.
<font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”> “Aluminum and fiberglass” represents the lowest standard of construction for a modern multihull that one could conceive of…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Oh - Really ???

<font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”> - I believe that Anthony Wright is building (and selling) competitive Mini40’s in the UK using fiberglass.
<font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”> What exactly does this have to do with cost or low standards of quality?
<font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”> Unlike <u>ANY</u> Mirosail multihull products, it seems that the Aussies have found a way to …
<center>(a) have multiple boats on the water …
(b) actually have races …
© post photos of their boats <u>AND</u> their competitions.</center>
Seems rather presumptuous for you - having never sailed one of their boats, to dismiss their competition value. Aren’t you the same guy who keeps telling all of us how Spinnaker 50 racing is SO much fun - even if we haven’t tried it, and even if it isn’t a recognized AMYA Class?

Let’s see -
the Aussies have multihulls that fit Mini40 class rules.
They race them in fleets.
They post photos and race results.

What am I mising here?
<font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”> This is radio control sailing - not big boat sailing. Also - their cost as you acknowledge is <u>MUCH LESS </u>than carbon fiber and titainium - meaning they actually have people building and racing them - not discussing them.
<font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”> I think a look at one of the most popular and well known classes - the IOM - might prove you wrong, as it seems there are even - my goodness - WOOD boats that are winning in regattas! And we <u>ALL</u> know that wood isn’t a modern composite and competitive material. Why heck - just ask Meade Gougeon whose 35 year old trimaran is still kicking ass and taking names on Lake Huron. Try telling HIM that his boat would be faster if built from carbon fiber!
<font color=“red”>b[/b]</font id=“red”> Perhaps - but if you use those materials and boats actually show up and race - what is your point? Are we talking “competition” and fleet racing - or are we (again) talking technology that doesn’t seem to be bringing boats out to race on the water in any great numbers?

Gee - next thing you will be trying to tell us that the Opti class isn’t a viable racing class because it isn’t made from high-tech materials!

The way I look at this, is that Peter and friends have found a way to build AND race inexpensive multihulls. They are having a hell of a good time doing that. Meanwhile, those who wanted one of your high-tech, EXPENSIVE wonders are still waiting after 3 years to get one. This means that those who would want one of yours and who are waiting for one of yours <u>ARE NOT</u> racing. Meanwhile, instead of putting boats in owners hands (as a builder?) so they can put boats on the water and so they can race, and so more people can be exposed to multihulls and so multihulls can grow in the U.S. and so as the class grows it can be recognized by the AMYA which means credibility and even more people wanting, buying and participating - we all get to listen to your ideas about moving ballast, foils, and retracting foils on boats that don’t exist and can’t be purchased!

Seems you are a fine example of someone criticising an actual group of people racing multihulls!

Kind of interesting if one stops to think about it…

A group of sailors from Australia have developed an active class of inexpensive, low-tech racing multihulls and are actually holding races.

Another builder here in the U.S. is building, selling and furnishing F-48 multihulls in kit form for buyers to finish. He started less than a year ago (not 3 years ago) and if asked could probably produce names of buyers. In fact, I had posted a email from an Ohio buyer that indicated he got his kit parts in about 6 weeks - but you can’t produce a multihull for retail sale in …oh, never mind!

But it does provide a graphic example of what you say and what you do.
<hr noshade size=“1”><hr noshade size=“1”>
WAY TO GO AUSSIES - you have accomplished something that Mr. Lord (self proclaimed High Technology Sailing/Racing) has been unable to do for multihulls in 4 years … and that is develop a fleet of interested buyers, builders AND competitors. WELL DONE !

Forget Doug and his comments - You guys are the ones who are advancing r/c multihull sailing - simply by actually sailing!

Peter said that I would steal his design, patent it and prevent his people from sailing their own boats so he had thought better of providing me with a boat.
Other the the absurd ridiculousness of that kind of statement I think it was appropriate to inform Peter as to why I and another multihull sailor had decided against purchase of his boat. Peter has claimed that the Aussie aluminum and fiberglass boats will beat anybodies multihull in the world and used as an example the story of an English guy that had brought a boat with him from the UK and been sundly defeated.(See under General Discussion: combining multihull classes.)
I know that the French mini 40 fleet is the strongest in the world and are all carbon-at least masts and crossarms and that is a high standard.
Suggesting hat I would patent and steal his design is so absurd but characteristic of the type of posts Peter has made.
I had never even criticised him or his boats until his previous post in this thread-even after the wild claims he made for the performance of his low tech but cost effective boats.
I don’t agree that just geting multihulls on the water is the point-thats been done for years and mostly in a poorly done low tech fashion. Poor performing multihulls have been the cause of the lack of growth in multihull sailing- and of the “old wives tales” of pitchpole and capsize. There is no question that a multihull with an aluminum mast will pitchpole before the same boat would with a carbon mast-the aluminum weighs twice as much!
Apparently the fleet in Australia sails in mostly light air so those kinds of problems may take a while to show up-but they will show up.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Not to be picky … but what the hell …

I specifically said number of boats on the water and racing in competition with posted results.

Does it matter if all are sailing 36, 1 meter, F-48/Mini40 or 2 and 3 meter multihulls? THEY ARE RACING AND HAVING FUN !!!
You are missing the entire point of part (majority) of my post - regardless of how crude, how low tech, how low cost - guys like Grant with his canting keel WindWarrior, Ian with his NIGHTMARE F-48 multihull kits, and now a bunch of low-budget Aussie racers - THEY ALL are “DOING” something you only seem to be able to criticize and/or discuss.

If you feel you are being unfairly characterized for possible design theft - one quick and easy way to dispell that suggestion is to make your own boats, and sell them and have photos and racing results. Then others might be inclined NOT to worry about theft of their ideas. Strictly my opinion - I could be wrong.

Will also go back and take a look at Peter’s other posts - I don’t recall seeing anything about aluminum masts - Of course - if true, you might want to inform Graham Bantock and suggest he stop selling his low-tech aluminum masts too.