I’ve written to the powers that be in this class to get the “official” ok to start an 86" rc class based on the full size rule. This new class would be one of the largest boats of the rc classes and would be highly technical boat featuring a canting keel as well as a spinnaker if the designer builder chose to incorporate them.It would be one of the lightest of the big rc boats weighing around 25-35 lbs. Components would be available to individuals to complete their own maxZ86.
Comments are welcome and the rules for the new class will be published here as they are developed hopefully with your help.
I personaly am going to build a one off demonstrator and encourage any individuals or groups of individuals to consider what will surely be one of the most magnificent models ever to sail.
The full size class has boats under construction all over the world for people like Disney and Crighten(?) and already is one of the largest monohulls to race as a class.
So add your two cents to a constructive begining of a whole new kind of BIG rc sailing…
UPDATE: 2/25/04
Dimensions of Pyewacket/Morning Glory:
1)LOA 87’ 4 1/4"
2)LWL-76’ 3/4"
3) Beam 16’
4) Draft 14’ 9"
5) DSPL 46,296 lbs.
6) UPWIND SA 4,344 sq. ft.
7)Downwind SA 9,388sq. ft.
8) Inshore crew 24
9) Offshore crew 18
-Pyewacket is lighter than an IACC boat but has a taller rig and larger spinnakers
-Upwind in 5 knots of wind she does 8 knots boat speed
-Reaching in 21 knots wind she does 22 knots…
Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing

Just heard from Bill Lee the Class Secretary for the full size maxZ86 class that he has talked to the owners that make up the current class and they have approved the formation of a maxZ86 Class Association for rc models based on 1" to the foot scale. That is , of course, 86" LOA.

Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing

Bloody hell Doug! Thats huge! 7’2"! You could dump the rc gear and get a kid to sail it!! Sounds cool though, and expensive.

If its not blowing it sucks!

You’re right Matthew(86" LOA; around 12 to 14" beam, ± 130" mast ,3000 sq.inches sail in main and jib + about the same in an asymetrical spinnaker)- but it would be a spectacular thing to see flying on a reach with asymetrical set! And it could be a good “Challenge” boat between different clubs, regions or countries for that matter. There already is serious interest from a couple of the full size maxZ86 teams!
For modelers it will never be hugely popular but the expense will be reduced by doing a lot of the work individually.
One of the tenets of the full size class is that everybody should have access to the technology being used and that will be true with this class.
Nothing will come close to the technological innovation in these boats(for awhile) and they should be the ultimate rc raceboat!

Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing

The full sized class is here:


UPDATE: received CBTF,INC approval to use CBTF on the maxZ86 model …That means that anybody or group of bodies who want to build one of these will have access to CBTF as well to the spinnaker system .

Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing

See the new issue of Seahorse(Sept.) for a small but gorgeus rendering of the Reichel- Pugh designed CBTF maxZ86 Pywacket being built at Cookson’s in New Zealand.
Hasso Plattner’s Morning Glory another CBTF maxZ86 is under construction at McConaghy.
Both boats will be launched before too long…
CBTF seems to be the technology of choice for most of the large monohull raceboats including the new 90’ Genuine Risk(not a maxZ86).

Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing


Have you given any thought to the winches that would be required to trim those sails? I’m thinking that even Rob G.'s stuff is way too small. I’m wondering if a new paradigm is required - especially for the spinnaker system - where you use an electronic speed control and a motor with a winch drum on it. That would give you the ability to trim very long lines (halyards or asym sheets) with good fine tune control. The hard part would be in keeping all those lines tensined and tailed so that you did not have problems with stuff getting all tangled.

Just a thought…

  • Will

Will Gorgen

Double post removed…

Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing

Will, the Guyatt 380HD on 7.2 volts will handle the maxZ86 main. I usually use that winch for spinnaker set/douse
on smaller boats. There may be a problem with the spinnaker but it is quite possible that the spin on the z86 will go in with less hassle since it is going in a bigger hole(and pulling it in the hole is the biggest load on any rc spin system). An asymetrical spinnaker which is twice as complicated on a model with a jib as compared to a symetrical spinnaker will be much more practical on this model since the Guyatt winches won’t be too heavy for sheeting applications.
But the biggest problem, still mostly unsolved, is the canting keel : 20 lbs or so on a 22" fin. Ideally :2-3 seconds from center to max out.
Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing

If you’d like to see an AWESOME picture of Disney’s new maxZ86 Pyewacket making a static canting keel test go to the last page of the CBTF thread on under “Sailboats”.

UPDATE: more Pyewacket pixs of benefit to anybody considering a maxZ86 model to be found on:
UPDATE #2: Go to to see gorgeus renderings of Morning Glory and her sistership Pyewacket.

Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing

I made a proposal to Bill Lee the other day to use the princible dimensions of Pywacket(CBTF Z86 #1) as the “model” for the rc class instead of using the really complicated full size rule. Freeboard will have the least latitude ,mast height max will (probably) be scale, beam will have atitude, cant angle will be limted to 55 degrees draft will max out at around 20-22" ect. He is in NZ sailing Pyewackett and when he gets back will send me the appropriate dimensions of boat #1. Then I’l put together a trial rule and get it posted here for comments and 6 months to a year from now we’ll lock it in.
I’m going to build AT LEAST a one off and am considering doing a mold.
Two technical hurdles remain unsolved: the canting keel motive force and the spinnaker winch–but we’ll get there…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

i guess my idea of a small class of IACC boats , people dont like too much, it seem they want ot go big and complictedate

Cougar, this is a specialized class that will never be large in numbers. But your 50" IACC class seems to have gotten a lot of interest and if it catches on could be a large class. Building any class is very difficult-don’t be dicouraged and NEVER quit trying!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Now that’s a big model!!!

I’d like to see one of these, but I think you’re right Doug, it’s too big to be accepted as a mainstream class.

I’m just curious as to why the large scale? Could the same thing be accomplised at a slightly smaller scale? If you could get it below 60 inches, wouldn’t it have a better chance of wide range acceptance?

Just wondering. I really like big models, but I have the short Yukon (SUV) and no actual modelling budget.



I don’t want to speak for Doug, but the the full sized MaxZ86 class is 86 footers which are big boats (maxis). Big boats are impressive to sail and expensive and elite. The model maxZ86 class would have a similar place in the world of RC racing - big, expensive (relatively speaking) and elite. I think it would be good for the world of RC sailing to have some big boats. I think the owners of the full sized rule that have given Doug the green light to pursue this class would like to have their full sized boats modeled in an impressive scale as well.

The only real problem is that there are no good venues for an elite maxi RC boat. The full sized boats can race in long distance races, like the TransPac or the Mac races, they can race in the big boat series in SF bay, They can race one design and handicapped races. In the world of RC, there are few if any parallel racing circuits. There is no handicapping system and I have only heard of one formal distance race and even that seems to more of a dash for fun than a real race for prizes.

But 86" is really only a bit more than 2 meters, so take 2 1 meter boats end to end and that is the scale we are talking. It is still small enough to sail on the bigger ponds on similar size race courses to what we all sail now…

  • Will

Will Gorgen

Dane, the ideaof this class was to capture the essence of the full size class and to spark the imagination of allwho see these boats up close.Their power grace and extraordinary speed potential using a 55 degree canting keel plus spinnaker will be something to behold.
If you look under “Technology” you can find a thread regarding a 55-60" “Offshore” rc raceboat in a thread started by Matthew Lingley that would also allow both a spinnaker and canting keel.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

TOPIC: “BIG” Sized R/C Boats

Doug is well aware of the efforts and problems associated with “BIG” boats. In France, where multihull interest is big, the French are unable to get more than 8-10 2 Meter multihulls on the starting line (with a few exceptions) - even for big races. The 2 Meter - at just over 78 inches is (probably and arguably) the fastest r/c non-foil sail boat in the world - over a closed course or in a distance event. Yet, there are not streaming masses of sailors moving toward the class because it is big, awesome or fast.

Most boats this large (2 Meter range) require home building which means at least 75% of the readers on this forum who don’t build, have just left as possible owners of the MAXZ86.

Of the remaining 25% of those who build, there are probably 10% who would find problems with transportation of either of these big boats.

Of the remaining 15%, my guess is there is another 10% who just don’t want to build and store something that large.

This leaves us with 5% that “might” be interested. The forum hosts about 160 people, so this means there “might” be a possibility of eight (8) people building a MAXZ86.

Now, one thing not being discussed is the expected cost to own and sail one of these. The construction of the hull is basic and of little cost for materials. The rig, sails, radio gear and winches able to control the expected sail area is now a question. Are there really 8 people willing and able to put up close to $3,000 (or more) for a boat? (I’m using top-of-the-line 1.2 meter+, “M” Class as estimated low-end cost reference). Probably need a Guyatt winch for jib, for main and one or two more for spinnaker and for canting keel. Lets say you need 5 - a conservative guess - which means you will have at least $700 invested just in winches alone.

To use Doug’s and Will’s examples, the big boat world supports these at fewer than 8 boats in the world ! I’m thinking (could be wrong) there are only 5 of these (that I can think of) which, of a population of worldwide sailors is much, much less than 5%. Can we get even two or three of these r/c boats built and on the water? Possible but rather doubtful. Then again, there are those who spend for the sake of ego - so I could very well be wrong.

I’m not taking a personal shot here at Doug - only grounding myself in reality. I really would like to see a breakdown of anticipated costs (and maybe suppliers) that would show the cost of ownership of a 2 meter or larger boat.

For those who seriously think this class is possible - please post what your best guess is to build one of these. And before you start slinging arrows at me for being negative, be advised that I have already (and in public) noted that my next multihull with be a 2 Meter, so I have no axe to grind about the idea of huge r/c boats - just about what it costs, and how many would participate?

I’m not trying to prevent the class from happening, I’m not “negative” big boats, and I certainly could care less “whose idea” this is - I’m trying to ask the “experts” what they realistically think this thing will cost to hit the water. Feel free to post. If you want to take shots - go to the “PUB” !

Just to amplify on the issues raised by Dick, current, existing “large” boat classes in AMYA include: 10R, Newport 12Meter, Wheeler, AC, Santa Barbara. Most if not all of these classes are struggling largely because of smaller, less costly easier to sail and transport alternatives and as also pointed out a lack of suitable venues for racing larger boats. However, to the extent that anyone is attracted to large r/c race boats, one would have to assume that at least some people are already satisfied sailing in one of these existing classes thus bringing the number of likely participants to below the numbers suggested by Dick.

More importantly, you can’t have a successful class without racing. To date no class that has received official status has ever come out of the internet. As reflected in another post, classes are started when groups of people at one or more clubs get together and back a new boat or design and then race together. Experience suggests, that if you can’t convince one or more local groups to buy into your idea and host a race series, you are going nowhere. Yet, in all of the posts here regarding all of the many proposed new classes, I have not seen a single mention of proposed groups, clubs or venues that are interested in backing a race series for any of these new boats. So for those who think this class is a serious possibility, I would be very interested to here thoughts about groups backing the concept and a proposal for a race series.

My estimates on cost are: Two Guyatts for main and jib: $320, One super X winch(make undetermined)-maybe mini hydraulics for canting keel–$900; one medium superX winch for spin: $350. One hull estimte: $375, painting $800(superteam logo professional job). Sails $450 including one asy or sym spinnaker, hardware $450 incl Harhen mini (full size) traveler, 9 channel PCM radio $350, Mast $125, miscel $125.
Cost Estimate for non production boat built one off:$4245sym spin,$4645 asy spin; estimate for production boat $6800sym spin;$7400asy spin.Add the video transmitter, Gps, naked woman holograph lasers and the cost will increase. Remember the AC15 is $6000 and is two channel and a third the size…
This boat will be a technology demonstrator and should not be considered by anyone without EXPERT modelling and design skills for a one off. Even a production boat will require detailed knowledge outside the norm for most rc sailboats; a full size sailor with some rc experience might adapt better than an rc sailor with little full size experience.
Of course, this is inaccurate due to the lack of a source(haven’t looked) for the spinnaker and canting keel winches. However, it is in the ball park and is based on known costs for the 65" America One spinnaker boat.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing