Why not make it just a tad even bigger, get rid of all the expensive gear motors, and the lead on the keel, and sit yourself into it like a kayak. In a boat that small, if you move your weight a couple of inches to one side, you get the equivalent of hiking out in a bigger dingy. same advantage as a canting keel. I know from experience in my seven foot gaff rigged “Queen Mab”. That way it could also be affordable, potentially, and unique.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
My Cost Estimate for non production boat built one off: $4245sym spin, $4645 asy spin; estimate for production boat $6800sym spin; $7400 asy spin. <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Those sound like reasonable estimates as far as costs go, and you (or Will) did indicate it would be an “elite” class. I know it is unfair to compare real to r/c, but when you start reaching the $5,000 mark, there are a lot of “real” boats out there going for that amount. When you get to the $7000 figure, even a used Inter 20 Cat with asy spinnaker and trailer starts to be possible.
For an R/C boat - I guess it is out of my budget range, but thanks for the numbers. I would wonder if there is even an r/c club that could put together a “syndicate” of club owners to build one (or - two for testing). Very interesting to watch how this unfolds.
I can see this working as in one of Dougs earlier posts as a team effort. If someone was clever to organise it it could be a challenge between different teams, maby not model boat clubs, theres plenty of people around in the fullsize sailing industry that would have the knowlege and skills to knock out one of these. The guy I do some partime work for builds bits for Tornados and other cats. I built one of my model cats there and he now fancies building a model. He hasn’t got time at the mo (Olympics coming up) but im gonna sugest to him a boat like this could make a cool race off between different companies round the UK, maby say challenge LDC, Ovington, Sp systems and other builders/sailmakers/designers/colleges to some racing, get a sailing mag involved and it would make for some good advertising. All the boats would cost would be the radio gear to a fullsize manufaturer, theres enough carbon in the average offcut box to build 10!
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
A possibility Matt - and one thing that “COULD” improve the odds for this happening, is if the new class would specifically sidestep the ISAF rules governing sponsorships and advertising - and let a few coporate investors help fund an effort.
One wouldn’t have to be “paid” to race, but before the “Corinthians” get wedgies in their undies thinking about this - consider that even our Olympic Teams get subsidized support in the form of dollars or in-kind services - and more and more regatta and events are selling out to “sponsors”. So whether in the form of sponsor’s hats, kegs of beer, cases of rum, or expensive watches, finding a company or two to help foot the bill on a nearly $8,000 investment and having some or all of the costs written off as “advertising” certainly would allow a few smaller budget guys/groups to play.
Hopefully this isn’t considered off-topic, as it is presented as a way to (perhaps) afford to play if you wanted to. I would suggest further discussion take place on a specific (new) thread about advertising/sponsorship if any wants to carry this further.
I get first “dibs” on Larry Ellison and the Oracle bucks with backup from Northwest Airlines and 3M. [:D]
You know, that sounds like a great idea. A corporate challenge may be just what is needed to actually see something of this magnitude come to life. It would be a great show to watch corporate model boats duke it out for bragging rights. Not only would this serve as advertising for the corporations, but think of the opportunities that some of the current model sailors, designers, and builders could have as corporate consultants on the project.
Hmmm. This could almost be used as one of those overpriced team-building strategies like “Who Moved my Cheese” and the “Fish Philosophy” that make their rounds throughout the corporate world.
Doug, this might be a good way to get the boats built, sailed, and capture people’s attention. Even $10,000.00 is nothing to a large company or corporation, especially if it can be written off as advertising, employee improvement, etc.
Roy,
You make an excellent point about organization. My class, the Fairwind Class, has well over 100 AMYA members, but we only have 3 or 4 clubs with 40 members between them that compete in class events. We added one club this last year, and hopefully we will keep that growth going. But that has been the one weakness of our class to date - we have a lot of boats, but no organization.
As far as this boat is concerned, maybe we can learn something from the full size class. The full sized MaxZ86 class got together a bunch of potential owners and they all sat around and figured out what they wanted their next big boat to look like. Those owners were scattered all over the country, but were guys that regularly did “the circuit” with their existing 60, 70 and 80 footers, so they all knew each other. They also intended to campaign these new monsters on the circuit and were willing to foot the cost of running a grand prix maxi program ($1 - $3 million a year for sails, transportation and paid crew)
Anyway, now that the rules are in place folks are starting to build these boats. first out of the shed was Zephrus 5, but now roy Disneys Peywacket is floating and at least one or two other boats are in or nearly in the water. Several other boats are in the design phase.
What can we learn for the RC MaxZ86 boat? Well, the full sized guys already had a cicuit and were already willing to spend the money it takes to campaign a boat. I have met only a few RC sailors who really campaign their boats on the circuit and are willing to drive to more than one regatta a year. So that will put a serious cramp on the number of owners. Travel costs to compete on a circuit would be significant. you would probably need a trailer to put the boat in or perhaps you could “car top” it like a full sized laser.
But like you say, Roy, if a local club crops up that wants to support this boat, then at least you would have a local series to compete in.
A corporate challenge cup might be a fun way to generate some interest. But in order for that to happen you need a venue worthy of the challenge. Taking a look at what the full sized boys do for fun, you would probably want to have a long distance race as well as around the bouy stuff. For the distance race, keeping up with these big boats would be tough, so now you are talking about a powerboat to follow along, or perhaps a golf cart to follow on the shoreline. Both would entail a “crew” to drive.
So yes, if we try to think about forming a class with events, then there are a lot of obsticles.
But looking around on these pages and others, it is clear that a lot of boats get built with no class in mind. I think Doug mentioned that the owners of the Full sized MaxZ86 boats were interested in getting a few boats for their team members to race around the harbors at their various events. Perhaps that is where we should look for the first seed of an organization…
- Will
Will Gorgen
In my conversations with Bll Lee his thinking was exactly along the line of corporte/team challenges with individuals welcome as well.
Last night ,I finally got the certificate that sets the plus and minus limits for the boat. I will,over the next few weeks, distill down a first draft of the model rule that will be somewhat looser than the big boat rule. Mast height will be scale but draft will be greater. Cant angle will be 55-60 degrees on the model vs 50 on the big boat. Spinnakers of the Hoyt-Lord symetrical variety or Asymetrics as well as any individuals’ spinnaker system will be legal; both asymetrics and the Hoyt-Lord system create great physical lift on the bow of the boat. Everybody will have equal access to any patented technology and fees for such technology will be uniform for all participants that want to use it.There MAY be a waiver of some patent fees in regard to certain technologies. No boat will be legal that uses a patented technology w/o a waiver or license.
When I post (or somebody posts) the first draft of the rules --maybe under another topic–there will be a 2-3 month period of discussion on this forum as well as with the interested full size syndicates
whose comments etc I will report here. Everybody is welcome to contribute.It is envisioned that the rules will be locked in for a period of five years or so at some point and the basic precepts of the class are off limits from voting forever like the legality of spinnakers and canting keels. No group will be able to form a clique at some point and vote these things out of the class.
Ideas to contemplate are limits on rigs; I’m leaning on limiting the rig to just one rig with reefable main and a second jib; no more than two spinnakers for any one regatta. No planform limitations to either main jib and spinnaker except that spinnaker must retract within the overall length of the boat. Because the canting keel mechanism may be very expensive a possible limit on its performance will be considered. An ideal transit time of one second from center to 55 or 60 degrees will be considered as a limit.Transmission of technical data from the boat via video or radio will be considered because the costs of such things are coming down in price dramatically.
I think that a boat should be able to be sailed with a crew: modules (approx $100) are available to allow a crew to have exclusive control over certain functions: say spinnaker and canting keel. These are not like training boxes because the control is limted to only certain functions and is exclusive; that is, the skipper can’t take over for the crew so team work would be essential.
So anyway, as it dawns on you, post your ideas from the practical to the wild and we’ll gradually put together a model rule…
I know many of you have not sailed a spinnaker model or canting keel boat but the power developed is simply awesome and these things should be screaming machines off the wind!! As well as having excellent upwind speed made good(vmg)…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
I tell you what, models like this would be great evening entertainment at the big fullsize race weeks. Imagine having a fleet racing in the evenings at Cowes week for example, under spotlight 30m off the promenade! That would be awsome and should give r/c sailing one hell of a boost, as the potential audeince is massive. Make sure the rules are written like the 18 foot skiff rules re sponsorship I think it goes pretty much as long as you can see the boats number you can cover the rest of it in advertising. The key with it would be to pick venues where they will be seen by as many people as possible…
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
Doug
In a previous post when you were asked by me whether you would charge royalties for your patents if a class were to adopt one of your “technologies” you said they would be given away for free including allowing other manufacturers to build boats with it without a royalty. That was about 2 months ago I believe. I’ll dig up the old posts and quote them if you’d like me to waist time looking for it. Why the change of heart now?
No change whatsoever: CBTF has made its current policy that individuals who want to use CBTF on any model between 24 and 86" may do so without any patent fee. That DOES not apply to CBTF being used by other manufacturers, however. I am licensed by them exclusively to use CBTF in production models within that same range. I have already helped a number of people understand and begin or consider CBTF projects. For the maxZ86 project other manufacturers would have to get a license just like me except that it would be limited to the maxZ86 class. Individuals would still have the waiver.
My spinnaker patent is NOW available to anyone including manufacturers to use in the interest of getting relatively simple spinnaker systems going.
But remember this: I never said that any and every patent that I might develop in the future would be available for free!!
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
A friend in engineering at Disney animatronics has told me about some linear actuator’s that operate really quickly and are very strong. They seem to be a possible solution to moving the canting keel on this model. Will update as to costs as soon as I know…
Waiting on Pyewacket’s measurement certificate to use as a “model” for the modified version of the maxZ86 rules that we will use.
Found out that Pyewacket and Morning Glory use physical pushrod linkages for the CBTF system-at least that’s one area the model will be more advanced: by using a programable radio the linkage is totally eliminated!(see Technology"-“How CBTF works”.)
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Gale, very good ideas! When the rules are complete they’ll be published under this topic in the original post. They will definitely be generic and designed to produce the most technologically advanced rc monohull yacht ever-and one of the biggest.
Which, of course,is the point of this boat in the first place.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
For things to get calmer here it might also be a good idea to not make claims like “the most technically advanced r/c monohull yacht ever” for a boat that has not been built, sailed or designed. Sort of sets off all kinds of hype detectors…
Actually, whats being discussed is a plan-you can’t sugar coat what it is about-the plan is to build the most technologically advanced rc monohull ever. It may succeed ,it may fail but that is the plan.
UPDATE: To reach a level of political correctness where a “PLAN” is redefined as a “CLAIM” is the height of absurdity!!!
For more information refer to the original post where the plan is explained in more detail.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Can’t give it up, can you? Well, I tried…
Doug,
I have to agree with Roy here… Advanced Technology can be almost anything. Carbon Fiber is considered advanced technology, but many boats use that, so you cannot claim that you are the most advanced just because you use carbon fiber. Canting Keels are advanced technologies, but are they more technologically advanced than some of the swing rig technology that is constantly being refined in the Marblehead Class? That is a matter of opinion.
So the correct factual statement would be that you are “replicating the technologies of the full sized MaxZ86 boats” and leave it at that. That is a pretty admirable goal (there is a lot of impressive stuff on those boats). But you cannot make a plan to be the “most advanced” when the “most advanced” is a matter of opinion.
- Will
Will Gorgen
See the original post for information just added on the specs for Pyewackett/Morning Glory. I’ve put it there to try to start keeping a single location for the most important info…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
doug
i have let you go on. but are we all not trying to do the same thing. you use the words" the most technologyical advanced monohull ever". but i think you are making a gross statement here. we are all trying to do just that. in most classes. could you use more words like most up to date tech. boat? i am not putting a cap on this . because there is a lot of intrest here. and that is good. but please if you can prove it then fine, but untill it is proven dont say it
cougar
gale made a good post, this started as a maxz86 post i dont know anything about this boat so if it has a canting keel fine . but lets stay on topic
cougar
I think Will and Roy had a point about my using the words:“WOULD BE the most technolgically advanced monohull ever”. We’ll just have to wait and see what it becomes ,if anything…
The maxZ86 model will feature a canting keel, working rc spinnaker as well as possibly CBTF and/or other patented technologies. It will be one of the only models capable of handling all this because of its sheer size.
As a class this model should provide exciting racing with fairly even boats. The skill level required to sail the boat will be high requiring practice and familiarity in order to be able to sail it well.
Concepts such as sailing with a crew are possible using custom radio modifications that allow a crew to handle specific functions.
Telemetry used to provide data such as speed, app. wind, heading etc. will also be possible.On board video for sail trim will be legal…
Check the original post for new data on Pyewacket.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing