Hi again,
Certainly not to call you a cheapskate Steve.
I believe that the Paradox M on the UK site is very good buying at 500GBP (approx$1250-1300AUD) Shipping would be in the vicinity of AUD$150-300 depending on carrier used(post or freight)
As a guide, new rigs including sails here will set you back anywhere from $500 to $650each for the top notch gear ready to sail(Bantock tube & fittings).
The above boat has 5 rigs that can be transfered on to later designs if the owner wished to update in the years to come.
Its great that the wheels are in motion & new clubs are on the horizon.
You raise a good point with the club builders. It seems the days of sailors building & designing their own boats is diminishing which is a shame, not only in Radio Yachting but in full size sailing also.
Carbon fibre hulls are barely harder to build than fibreglass ones for the home builder, but the stigma attatched( space aged/composite etc) do turn off many newcomers. In my own opinion i feel both the M & 10Raters have suffered in AUS to a degree since the withdrawal of Frank Russell from the marketplace. His entry level, finish your own designs can still be seen in many competitions nationwide today & provided customers with the choice of finish to suit their budget. Though i’m sure if he was charging what his product & time’s true worth was, he would still be in the business.
Maybe many in Aus were spoilt by Franks budget prices over many years? Who knows?
Brad , there is a lot of truth in what you say but this situation of what to do with the older Marbleheads is a problem that has to have some answers. Most of us know the root cause of it and to be fair we should not blame new boats or those who foster them . Because one day our new beaut boats to day, are going to be the fleets tomorrow.So collectively we needs some answers. I think Earl Boebert had the right approach and to some degree the Clubman Ms of Queensland gave another aspect to it all but there is something we 're all missing , the missing link if you like? I will tell you straight up I don’t know the answer. Just some of the things I do know. The novices coming into the sport have got to go somewhere with something , generally to something secondhand, They stay on these boats about 12 months and then move on to something a little better and then after a while move on up again etc, etc.Something like a stairway principle. On the way some sailor like to stay were they are and with the boat they are currently sail whether that is a SPOT or a EPIC or a ROAR EDGE, for we are all different( thank goodness). Now how do we equate a race with these boats ? well we can do the short course of Earls, perhaps class them in a sort of handicap within the event. So infact they are racing within that boat age group . Steve
Steve,
I agree & completely understand where you are coming from.
We definately need to work on a way of fostering boats of all ages. I’m at a loss as to why the M club over the years in NSW did not have much more of a handicap feel to the racing on club days. I think we all agree that any newcomer is turned off pretty fast if they are left well behind on a constant basis.
Maybe race days could comprise of 75%hcp-25%scratch racing?
Maybe weight /age divisions could work?
We may soon have a great opportunity to snare a few IOM newbies after the hype of the Worlds dies down & sailors look to take up the next challenge. Happy to discuss further with you on how we can achieve the result.
I would suppose the ideal situation would be to keep all the IOM boats and add to the M fleet as well. This may seem greedy but you and others have done the hard yards on IOM, Brad. This Worlds in Moloolaba, Australia in 05 is going to be the best ever. but what ever happens to old IOMs? for what ever the answer, it will be the same for Ms , surely. While we’re trying to come to grips with this problem with Ms, it can be used elsewhere in R/C sport in the future.
Should we try and answer this problem at a club level and perhaps at a regatta level later, for there appears some differences in approaches(not human)in differing events?
What about trying the South African market, the exchange rate should be more favourable to you, as well as the freight costs.
Being an xSA type who used to play with Marbleheads there, there are quite a few blokes out there who have designed and still make hulls for a very reasonable price.
Mail me if you want more info.
RWF
Thank you Milray for your kind offer. The problem at this time is not solving my secondhand M problem. Secondhand boats will turn upsomewhere. We need to put all your brains together to think out this prob. of how to run /do with old marbleheads. Somebody told me there is a move a foot to somehow get the English manufacturers to build better Ms. It appears that the boats that some of them are making are not holding up for even 12 months of racing! Well if this trend continues we won’t need to come up with an answer, it all goes into the “Throw away society”. We are seeing something like this in our club ,with the continuous need to save weight for this class. Saving weight costs dough, real dough. And in the end you finish up with a boat that won’t last the season.
I will continue with the “Earl Boebert theory” in club races and that is ‘Short Courses’ and Handicaps and perhaps ‘Boat age’ races within the races. We have a happy club that sail everything from clunkers to new Waliki’s, with some success. Steve
Steve - I’m positive this isn’t your issue alone - as it could be a desciption of all but the strictest of one-design design fleets. Yes, at times, even in the highly developmental US1Meter fleets here in the US every once in a while one will see an older design appear in the top five finishers at big races.
With exception of IOM worlds, once in a while older designs also win. My personal feeling is given an older design, most of the worlds’s top level IOM skippers would do very well in local and regional - and maybe even national events.
But when you reach for the world level, one must take every opportunity to be the fastest - and that includes being on the leading edge. Win and you’re a hero - but if you lose, it really might just be the equipment that caused it.
Meanwhile for most of us - to be honest, we are trying to buy our way to the front of the pack. Deny it if you want to - but regardless of what you sail (unless it really is a piece of junk) most will still leave the regatta in the same finishing position - and in most cases the design of boat isn’t really a factor in our final standings. Boat tune, tactics, water time, hitting the shifts, boat speed, well prepared, good starts and even luck all play a part. Sure a slightly faster boat will have an edge at a world’s championship level event - but that is only one factor.
In some cases you may need to have your best skipper prove that a slower boat really can be competitive. I’m not talking about boats with misaligned keels or rudders, sails that are all wrinkeled, or overweight boats, but a reasonably well kept boat should be able to be sailed pretty close to a winner. Many of us just need the proof that the slowness is us - not necessarily the boat. I do concede the variety of designs, weights and keel depths associated with the typical range of M’s however which can cause performance differences.
Steve they have started an age related series here in the UK for the Marbleheads which is IMHO brilliant. What I am not sure of is if it is restricted to pre swing rigs. If I had to start an age related series I would stipulate that no swing rigs as it would take it to the level whereby it would be more affordable for all and a lot more fun as the pressure is off the skipper to be world number 1. I personally enjoy a competitive race/ series but object to losing to some one who spends 3 times what I do and relies purely on the latest technology to improve their ranking position.
The IOM class was supposed to be the “affordable” class, but with boats now costing almost as much as the Marblehead equivalent I am wondering if I should stick to the class I started out in i.e. Marbleheads
Dick, A very valid point, ‘of the best skipper on the old boat’.
Brad was also explaining this but coming from a slightly different direction on talking about our Nats winner Paul Jones who was sailing an older Paradox design.
Milray I’m not quite getting the jargon on IMHO. Do they run Age in as age of the competitor or boat? If we ban a certain aspect, say for instance the swing rig, what else will get banned later? I heard some skippers who want to ban carbon fibre. I will say this , traditionally, shipwrights use whatever materials are at hand. I think Herreshoff in the 1930 would have used Carbon Fibre if it was avaiable.
Has it been proven that swing rigs are superior? In twenty years time all these superior rigs will be “old Hat”. I’m just getting my head around Stephen Rowlays article in MB in March 88. I tell you Mulray I love these swing rigs but I haven’t got one yet. why do you think they should be banned? Steve
Hiya Steve
Age related as in the age of the boat…lol as there are some boats out there older than us.
One of my favourite boats was a marblehead of the "Epic/Eclipse design) cannot remember which is what??? One was 10R and the other a Marblehead, I loved the shape of these 2 designs and they were pretty quick as well, a friend of mine had a RM1000 and I use to beat him time and again with my Epic/ Eclipse. If I could locate another hull I would definetely revive it for vintage RM racing.
Swing rigs once set up are just matter of plug n play :-). It takes but a few seconds to change a swing rig, personally I prefer the shroudless and standard old fashioned types of rig.
Well Milray, Your the first person I have ever met who has an Epic. I love EM’ too. I found Tom Potheroe’s(the designer) 476 in Australia in a deplorable condition. This particluar boat had won ,I think , the 1976 Amercan Nats in Marbleheads and was bought by an Australian straight after those championships. Any way I managed to get a general arrangement drawing off Tom (for there were no drawings issued) and refurbish the boat and I’ve called it the OLE’ 476. As you all know Tom Potheroe also designed the Santa Barbara class in the USA. The number 476 comes from Tom’s house numberin Santa Barbara.
Milray what are your objection to swing rigs, it could be helpfull?
I just want to say Hi to Rich Matt. Are you the guy who wrote for the AMYA newsletter in the 70s and 80s? I loved those and still have a good collection of them. I certainly glad to hear from you again. Steve
So we are down to the nitty gritty on ‘old marbleheads back in the water’. We all agree that the only way to do that is to get the Guys/Blokes off their butts.
Do we have to go back and school all these people how to have fun(on the water) again?
Are there more old Marbleheads around than new ones. Good question , hard answer. Now if the answer is YES, then it is good practice, to cater for these people. For eventually all the current boats are going to end up in this division.
So rather than cater for the 1948 Model M we concentrate on just putting boats in the water and putting age classifications on them and perhaps a little flag or like the Americans did in issueing Chevrons. Like 1931 to 1960 , Red chevrons. 1961 to 1973 Blue chevrons. You might be thinking why should it stop at an odd number 1973? This was the year the Stollery design "Blood Axe " appeared.
I would suppose that if any “blame” for the modern type boats should be sheeted home to a particular Model. it is this one. For it was so far in front of the then Marbleheads, it was not funny.
Then we could move on to say 1974 to perhaps 1980, Green Chevron etc. Now the whole purpose of this is to divide the competitors into groups within each race and prizes to be awarded accordingly to chevron colours. So in the interim you might have to provide, say a couple more prizes but there are more BUMS on the WATER. Any takers?
We seem to be atin salemans jargon of the “pregnant pause”. Maybe someone might like to suggest how we might attract these old owners of old Marbleheads back to race?
Well no takers , Eh. No thoughts on attracting anyone. Maybe a few suggestions to start the old ball rolling.
Perhaps offering money prizes. Perhaps , with sponsors a trip around the world to say race the Vintage in Marblehead , Fleetwood and old Sydney town. I bet if we offered prizes like that we would have old RMs coming out of the woodwork. I think it is all about the insentive to participate. I for one would grab my ‘ole 476’ Epic and trundle it to the water.
I must report that the Queenslander had another regatta for there old Ms called Clubman boats again. So some people are having a go. This is good news.
Hello all, I have just bought my first rc yact after transferring from aircraft and would u believe it is an old M with a couple of extra floats thrown on the side to make a tri. could get some of the old M back on the water just not as an M lol. BTW does anyone have any close up pics of rigging they can e-mail to me as my local club hee only has IOM’s and no-one really knows the M rig.
I am positive there are those out there contemplating a Formula 48 multihull and looking for some cost savings. Might consider an older, but still serviceable M Class rig/sails such as this.
The sails are courtesy of an “M” Class owner and were very reasonable in cost. The mast consists of two sleeved X-C Ski poles - yet to be trimmed by about 6-8 inches to bring sail foot down closer to deck. [Nice for photo however - just prop against the ceiling.] Didn’t put the jib on for the photo, but have that and two other complete sets of various weight (wind strength) materials.
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Don’t junk them, don’t let them set in the garage, attic or basement - RECYCLE them ---- if not the complete boats - perhaps the parts!
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