Hello sailors…
I would like to discuss the practicalities of building an internet course here. I am aware of the photos and description at http://footy.rcsailing.net/racing.php
I have further questions though.
How is the windward mark attached to the bank without the mooring line being drawn to the surface as the leeward mark pulls on the course?
Presumably if the water is not too deep a sliding weight dropping down from the windward mark when it is launched (or thrown) out will drop to the pond bed and hold the mooring line down. The mooring line being of the sinking variety… right? What if we are in deeper water?
Please post your construction tips and comments here.
Presumably if the water is not too deep a sliding weight dropping down from the windward mark when it is launched (or thrown) out will drop to the pond bed and hold the mooring line down. The mooring line being of the sinking variety… right? What if we are in deeper water?
YEP! you got it.:zbeer:
If you are in deeper water you must tie the weight lower to take the weight to the bottom.
The line attached to the bank or shore is attached to the weight also, to allow retrieval of the course for next time.
You shouldn’t need to have the mark(s) to far out from the shore for sailing, because of the ‘shallow’ draft & keel; closer than a 1M. The only concern should be the wind shadow.
Reference to your post in the general discussion thread.
Similar probem here. We have a lot of lovely lakes that would be super for radio sailing, but where the bottom shelves away very steeply.
I am thinking of castng a lump of concrete with an eyebolt in it and dumping it in the lake (1-off use of 1:1 boat, raft, log, passing alligator!) with a continous piece of thin rope running through the eyebolt. Take the free part of the loop ashore and hide under a rock as necessary. Attach the course to the loop and run it out.
I suspect this may tend to roam around a bit. To overcome this I suggest an ugly, very unstreamlined weight on the end of quite a long piece of cord.That should take a lot of its enthusiasm away. If the worst comes to the worst, 3 lumps of concrete and 3 loops will tie it down lke a pin through a butterfly.
That’s a good idea, Angus. In the sailboat lake where my club goes, we use the lines to pull the marks under, so the powerboat guys can go on the same lake.
Have you thought of how to retrieve your mark after towing it out? Another line (sinking line) would work fine.
This probably should be in this thread, but see Bill’s question about sighting the line at awkward angles.
If we can achieve it that the ODM of the line is rigidly mounted relative to the leward float, it should be possible to mount a reasonable sized mirror at 45 degrees to the line to site it. But beware of aerodynamic effects - otherwise we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
OK. I have been giving the challange of using the Internet Course (IC) for fleet racing some considerable thought and have come up with an idea that could allow the better use of the course for what ever you want to use it for.
The concerns have been;
Only one side of the course is usable because of the centre string line connecting the windward to the leeward marks.
The current start line system is not really usable for fleet racing.
The continuing obstruction caused by the centre string line (csl) would make for many tactical and protest situations which I feel may bog down the fun competition and cause much ill feeling.:devil3:
So…solutions.:rolleyes:
Get rid of the centre string line, allowing the area between the windward and leeward marks to be used in its entirety.
Arrange a start line with the correct orientation to the course and of sufficent length to be suitable for nine or ten starters.
Considerations.
The centre string line is necessary to fix the course length at 50 feet (15.2 m) but does not have to be at surface level.
The keel depth of a Footy is less than 12 inches, so if the (csl) is held 12 inches below the surface there will be no obstruction.
A start line of TEN feet would give sufficent length to accomadate a 9 boat heat start.
The start line should be placed on the right hand (starboard) side of the course. (This makes for better racing, trust me, I know what I am talking about here.):graduate:
Method.
A vertical element as part of the marks to attach the (csl) below the surface.
A solid 10 foot section attached to the leeward mark and arranged to orientate the start line in accordance with the course line.
I shall do a mock up and take some photos in the next few days so you may see the solution in practice.
Thanks, Ian…your practical experience with course construction started all this, and it sounds like you have some very workable ideas. I look forward to the test results.
One remaing nasty suggested by Roger Stollery. What happens if there is a windshift immediately before the start? This is not a good idea with a normal course but if the line itself is moving …
Simple solution is a postponement. Any other ideas?
Even if by modifying the Internet course and making it sutible for fleet racing,what are the benifits of racing on this course and comparing “fleet times” world wide?
If we hope to find the average time of one “fleet” to sail the course then surely the sailors will “rig” the race so that everyone sails in clear air etc…much in the way that you manipulate the boats in a teams race.
Good sailors will find a way to manipulate the race so that the results fit what is required to win against another fleet on the other side of the world.To think anything else is unrealistic.
The way I see it the joy of fleet racing is in beating the guys who are there on the day.The fastest way around the race course is often not the best way to win.There are many many varibles in a fleet race that make the actual time each boat took very uninteresting.
If I am lucky enough to have a fleet to race with then I don’t see any benifit of comparing what happened in my “fleet” to what happened in someone else’s half a world away.
The Internet course was originally conceived to find a way of comparing lone boats to another lone boat…it does it in a very haphazard manner but it is better than nothing and there are some challenges in the concept that make it an interesting exersise in itself.
I’m sorry guys I just can’t get to grips with this idea of fleet racing around the internet course or some variant of it.
Can someone explain the benifits to me? am I missing something?
If we hope to find the average time of one “fleet” to sail the course then surely the sailors will “rig” the race so that everyone sails in clear air etc…much in the way that you manipulate the boats in a teams race.
Team racing is great fun - but how you can rig the race so that everyone’s in clear air I don’t know.
Good sailors will find a way to manipulate the race so that the results fit what is required to win against another fleet on the other side of the world.To think anything else is unrealistic
Sure, they will try to get the best average time. Since this almost ceratainly invlves improving the standard of the tail-end charlies, it doesn’t seem a bad idea.
The benefit is that ‘there’s somebdy out’ there and its effect on the growth of the class.
Interesting discussion…I seem to be on the fence on this. I see valid points in both sides.
Although I’m not yet convinced that comparative fleet racing will become popular, I don’t see much harm in giving it a try. I personally feel the biggest benefit of this discussion will be the course itself…that a Footy course can be made easily and transported to any pool or pond where guys want to race that day. That could give clubs access to ponds where owners don’t want permanent bouys, and provide a good way to set up for demos at boat shows, lunch-time demos at other regattas, etc.
I see the fleet racing idea as a way to improve the local fleet as a whole. The average times involve every boat in the fleet, and if the average times are to be compared, then it means every boat’s performance needs to be improved, as well as every skipper’s sailing skill.
But as Brett mentions, there will probably be a temptation to exaggerate the average time, to look better than someone else’s fleet.
Hopefully not, which is why my signature is “sail honest.”
The fundamental problem is of a class that AT ITS BIRTH is international and is likely to be bought/built by all sorts of unlike;y people outside the normal RC sailing scene. How many Footies are there in existence? How many fleets. From the US Footy Website a recent fleet race between 4 Footies was an event!
The problem is not to get super-duper, fur-lined fleet racing: it’s to get ANY fleet racing. If we can add some more impetus by some gewgaws on the Internet, we should.
A simple timing of races - first to finish and last to finish - with number of participating boats will give an average time for comparison - yes, I know, wind conditions, waves, shifts, lulls, etc. But if you are looking to compare, that was the reason for the internet course in the begining (well- one of the reasons)
What I don’t see happening, is the effort to book airfare half-way across the globe to race one of these in an International event. I may be wrong, and perhaps size is a help for flying/travel, but I really see these as forming a local class where a 20-30 minute drive will be convenient.
I agree about the nature of the Footy class. In fact, I’ve referred to it on the Yahoo Footy forum as a novelty class.
I do not by use of the word “novelty” intend to demean the class. There are interesting design challenges for the class. And then there are the sailing challenges, as the Footy is perhaps the most sensitive to wind and water conditions of all the classes. I think it is partly the novelty of the size, partly the challenges in the design and sailing, and partly the inexpensive and quickly-constructed nature of the class that is accounting for the present popularity. I’m working to get my Internet course behaving properly so that I can make some timed attempts, myself. (I’m also weighting the lines connecting the two marks and the line to shore, so that my Footy and Victoria can sail over them. If that turns out to violate some course rule, then in the highly unlikely event that I set a record, we can put an asterisk next to the time.)
I also do not see many sailors taking trips much over an hour to reach a Footy regatta. Where there is another regatta and the Footy class (note how neatly I avoided any attempt at a plural - like the guy who ordered two mongeese,… make that two mongooses,… er, send me a mongoose, and while you’re at it, send me another one) can tag along, I think it will find a nice following.
As to the long term future - God knws! I think the Marbelhead was originally conceived as cheap and simple. The (full-size) Star certainly was.
In Europe an hour is psychologically much further than it is in the USA, but I agree with the principle. The internet fleet course is a means of putting small, isolated fleets into som sort of bigger league. It doesn’t have to be perfect: it just has to give added fun. The danger is using that as an excuse for being sloppy
