Evolution, not Revolution!

MultiHulls General Discussions (MultiHull/MultiOne)
1

Evolution takes skills, proper observation and PATIENCE! -
Sometimes almost ETERNAL patience -
enough selfcontrol to sit back and wait,
untill all dinosaurs just passed away. -

Revolution takes a gun and kills all dinosaurs.

Well - how do you think - which way is right to develop a working class of rc-multihulls?

No matter if it’s:

0.915cm/36",
1meter/39",
Mini40/F48/48",
F60/60",
or
2meter/78"

My original intention was - when this whole enterprise of RC-multihulls started in the internet five years ago -
to get all interested persons - no matter if designers, potential suppliers and customers, users, administrational persons, sailsmakers,
theoretically and practically trained persons together at ONE PLACE! -
And then discuss every design, plan, idea, whatever -…-
untill WE ALL AGREE about ONE DESIGN! -

To form a class with official recognition it takes - from my personal point of view -
a good ONE DESIGN boat! -
I think we all can remember the success story of the LASER! -

And it was my intention from the beginning,
to design and provide such a ONE DESIGN boat! -
My observation guided me to the F48/Mini40 TRIMARANS. -
But it could as well be a 1 meter Trimaran,
which of course would cut down boat- and transportprizes! -

The simple problem which is still NOT SOLVED, is the missing willingness to find an agreement at all!!!
A modern,cheap, good, relieable and competitive fibreglass or carbon-trimaran -
which can be taken apart for transportaion,
even a 2part mast - and all should fit in a lightweight transportbox of
50"x12"x10" ~ 130x30x25cm! -
Or 41"x8"x6" ~ 105x25x20cm! -

Weight ready-to-sail not higher than 3.0kgs or 2.0kgs.
Produced with female-moulds and vacuum-bagging for constant high quality!-
Sails from a professional sailmaker -
three riggs/sail sets maximum!-

Transportbox inkl. model,mast, sail sets and electronics not heavier than 10.0kgs for airfreight issues.

Maximum prize all together -

  • with one A-rigg -
  • depending on location -
    1000.00 US-Dollars or 1000.00 EURO for F48/Mini40! -
    Or 600.00 US-Dollars or 600.00 EURO for
    1 Meter! -
    Local taxes excluded.
    Shipping excluded.

10 orders at one time at least are necessary
for financing the plugs and the moulds.
This of course can be controlled by an executive comitee -
which should also control finances and building quality! -

But first of all an AGREEMENT has to be made, WHICH boat shall be the ONE DESIGN! -

It is also necessary, to have an INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT, before production starts! -
I would like to invite all multihull-enthusiasts, to join is here! -

I further suggest, that only ONE set of plugs is made, then three, four or five sets of female mould are made, which THEN are - as possession of the CLASS-Association - distributed to the elected suppliers! -

The original plugs are kepts as well,
to avoid any illegal copies of the approved models (it happened to the LASER -…-)

I don’t care, if Ian Sammis, Doug Lord, Peter Birch or I (Ernst Zemann) - or anybody else - designs the boat, makes the plugs and the female moulds - and who produces it then! -

But to get the class going, we need a relyable management and relyable customers too,
who don’t put ALL THE RISK of developing a NEW CLASS on OUR SHOULDERS!!! -

Let the discussion begin!

Best wishes, Ernst Zemann

Professional shipwright - boatbuilder/-designer with 27 years of experience and a special interest in multihulls

2

From my point of view I would say that we take something else as basis: The rig. Go trought the exsisting rigs for the RC-boats and decide wich one is the most suitable for multihull use, and after that decide what the platform measures should be.

  • HJ

“Expertice is gained trough mistakes. However repeating
same mistake is not learning but stupidity.”

3

I like that idea HJ…what is the most growing class??? Like it or not, but the answer is all well known: IOM
There you, IOM rigs, lots of makers, lots of sails already avaibable!
Other thing…sure I “know” that bigger is better, BUT I for one would like to stay at one meter…easily transportable! no need of super monster whinches aso… and again, they all exist in the IOM class.
So again, I say, IOM rig, one meter…your turn “guys”

Edit: I think it was said already in another thread though?!

cheers

-Wis

_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _

http://www.geocities.jp/schocklm/index.htm

4

OK, so you are basically telling me, the Mini40/F48 class are allready dinosaurs? -

Let them just fade away? -
Well - that’s EVOLUTION!

So let’s see if there are any more votes for the multi1-class -…-

Otherwise I continue my F60 -

Best wishes, Ernst Zemann

Professional shipwright - boatbuilder/-designer with 27 years of experience and a special interest in multihulls

5

I would like to see more performance and hard dricing in 3 dimensions, so I say Marblehead big rig. Has more Multi-look and its tall and narrow, so it will surely perform well upwind.

  • HJ

“Expertice is gained trough mistakes. However repeating
same mistake is not learning but stupidity.”

6

Sorry guys -

but maybe read rules first - design later? Usually specifications, theory and ideas drive the design - seldom the other way around.

ALL multihull classes follow the concept of “development” - they are not one-design classes. They began as development and they remain as development - unless of course you wish to start yet another class (which is your perogative).

The concept of using existing rig is one of the parameters of the MultiONE class, so why get excited about that idea? It’s there to be used. And as most monohull classes [One Design] have found, regardless of intentions, “someone” is always ready and willing to “offer” a new idea for development, more speed, better controls, etc.

If you think a one design will work - I would suggest you start from the beginning, develop the rules and specifications, and then see what it looks like or sails like. Again, nothing prevents anyone from building a boat and declaring it a class (one design or developmental). It’s boat number two that will tell - and boat number 6, 8 or 27! If they are all alike, and people follow the rules, specifications, etc. - only then might you have a one design multihull.

Wake up and look at how many different one meter monohull classes there are out there! Why - if one meter is the guiding principle of the design? Because everyone seems to know what is good design? Because a new company/builder wants their share of the pie?

Currently there are three (3) recognized class/sizes out there. The One Meter, the Mini40/F-48 and the 2 Meter. Robbe’s Butterfly was an attempt at a one design (production) that fit within the Mini40 parameters, and it no longer is an offering. If they as a big company can’t do it, what makes you think you can?

Build a boat to a current rule. Place a reasonable asking price on it. Sell it from the shelf. Then make another. It doesn’t matter “WHAT” design you choose - or develop new - the “PRODUCT” has to be competitively priced and ready to be shipped. If you can’t/aren’t ready and willing to do that, no amount of “Philosophy” will get boats on the water.

But as always, you are free to discuss ideas, designs, weights, sail areas, etc. Invariably, they will all probably fit into one of the 3 above classes of boats. Restricting development/design is not the answer to improving class interest. What does improve the class is having a boat that is for sale, and a buyer interested in buying it. If you are counting on home builders, then I can only point to what we have seen in the past - or lack thereof. A one design concept would not have kept the past multihull building/selling issues from taking place.

Of course, missing from this opinion is the need for a sufficient number of boats to make buying one worthwhile. So build one or many. Sell them. Get the buyers to sail them locally to stir up interest. Build and sell more. Eventually, buyers will determine what they want and how much they are willing to pay for it. I once had a discussion with a multihull builder and the topic was price. His comments (paraphrased) followed the concept of why not sell one boat at $3,000 as opposed to three boats at $1,000 each? My observation was one boat doesn’t make up a fleet or a class. If the owner of the $3,000 boat is happy sailing alone - then no problem. But when buyers want competition, then additional boats on the water are needed.

Ernst - will use you as an example: In five years, (starting in 2000) and excluding boats built for yourself, I know of Mark Baldacchino’s boat - now in Hawaii. I know of Hannu’s boat in Finland. From Ian Sammis, I believe I can count 4-5 boats he has built and sold, plus two of his own. Doug Lord “said” he built/sold 6 but I have never been able to verify even one. Doug’s would have been one-design if built. I do not know how many Anthony Wright has built/sold in the U.K. - and that’s it ! So there you have a five year history of the Mini40/F-48 boats done by builders. Add in the bits and pieces you shipped Bill in Hawaii and we should have some activity. In addition, there are a few home-mades out there as well. All fit the class, but all are a variety of designs. Who and how do you pick one to be the one-design you so wish to have? Even in your own evolution, there are differences between the designs. We offer free plans as well - but not many takers.

Roy Langbord once commented that to make a class you need boats. If we aren’t getting home builders - and if we can’t find reliable semi-production (or even hobby) builders - where do you suppose all these boats are going to come from? Now you want to add yet another design idea into the mix? Why not build to existing designs? If you can’t build them and if no one wants to buy them, yet another design sure won’t create interest.

We have Freight Train, Ghost Train, Snapdraggon, Water Resist, Nightmare (and it’s series) as well as drawings for your old concept of a box trimaran - and it seems none have spawned the great awakening. Whether your concept design is slightly heavier, or slightly lighter than current boats - the issue remains the same …who is going to build them?

I think we need action, not more debate/discussion over a specific design. Just my opinion and observations of course.

Dick Lemke
F-48 #US-06
MultiONE #US-06
Class 3 Landyacht #US-196

7

Well, then start building,
to get the action going -
it’s all your’s!

And I continue building my F60 “Evolution”.

Let’s see, who is sailing on the water first!

Best wishes, Ernst Zemann

Professional shipwright - boatbuilder/-designer with 27 years of experience and a special interest in multihulls

8

Now Ernst - there you go again, changing the topic direction. First post in this thread, you wanted to have a one-design. When I pointed out issues with one-design, with starting yet another class, with the gereral problem of start up, you simply dismiss it, throw your hands in the air and walk away. Does this seem a possible reason why you have people who just roll their eyes and look to the heavens when you post?

Why don’t <u>YOU</u> make a financial committment and actually have something built that people would buy? You are the one advertising as a “professional boatbuilder”.

For me?

Heck, I build for my own enjoyment. I have no pressure, no forced time-tables, no one who has paid me so I must work in the garage to get something to them by a specific date. I have no need to “rush” to be first. I can simply stop and walk away from the project if I want - or I can work overtime without losing money on the boat. If/when the time comes to sell it, I will simply post my asking price. It can be priced to get rid of it, to recover costs of materials, to recover costs of time AND materials, or I could hold and try to make a huge profit. Gee - I could also strip radio gear, blocks, etc. and trash the hull and floats too! In any case, I see no reason to take up your challenge as to be first on the water. At least I am building to a recognized class specification.

You see, that is what can be done by a home builder doing a personal project. Once you take money and/or advertise, you are then on the “hook” to produce.

By the way, my MultiONE joined Jack Ronda’s MultiONE on the water last year just before health issues sent me indoors. Maybe you missed the recap of it’s first sail? I believe (without checking) that Wis has included a photo slide show of the building project’s major steps. Might want to check his web site if it is still there.

Dick Lemke
F-48 #US-06
MultiONE #US-06
Class 3 Landyacht #US-196

9

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Dick Lemke

Sorry guys -

but maybe read rules first - design later? Usually specifications, theory and ideas drive the design - seldom the other way around.

ALL multihull classes follow the concept of “development” - they are not one-design classes. They began as development and they remain as development - unless of course you wish to start yet another class (which is your perogative).

The concept of using existing rig is one of the parameters of the MultiONE class, so why get excited about that idea? It’s there to be used. And as most monohull classes [One Design] have found, regardless of intentions, “someone” is always ready and willing to “offer” a new idea for development, more speed, better controls, etc.

If you think a one design will work - I would suggest you start from the beginning, develop the rules and specifications, and then see what it looks like or sails like. Again, nothing prevents anyone from building a boat and declaring it a class (one design or developmental). It’s boat number two that will tell - and boat number 6, 8 or 27! If they are all alike, and people follow the rules, specifications, etc. - only then might you have a one design multihull.

Wake up and look at how many different one meter monohull classes there are out there! Why - if one meter is the guiding principle of the design? Because everyone seems to know what is good design? Because a new company/builder wants their share of the pie?

Currently there are three (3) recognized class/sizes out there. The One Meter, the Mini40/F-48 and the 2 Meter. Robbe’s Butterfly was an attempt at a one design (production) that fit within the Mini40 parameters, and it no longer is an offering. If they as a big company can’t do it, what makes you think you can?

Build a boat to a current rule. Place a reasonable asking price on it. Sell it from the shelf. Then make another. It doesn’t matter “WHAT” design you choose - or develop new - the “PRODUCT” has to be competitively priced and ready to be shipped. If you can’t/aren’t ready and willing to do that, no amount of “Philosophy” will get boats on the water.

But as always, you are free to discuss ideas, designs, weights, sail areas, etc. Invariably, they will all probably fit into one of the 3 above classes of boats. Restricting development/design is not the answer to improving class interest. What does improve the class is having a boat that is for sale, and a buyer interested in buying it. If you are counting on home builders, then I can only point to what we have seen in the past - or lack thereof. A one design concept would not have kept the past multihull building/selling issues from taking place.

Of course, missing from this opinion is the need for a sufficient number of boats to make buying one worthwhile. So build one or many. Sell them. Get the buyers to sail them locally to stir up interest. Build and sell more. Eventually, buyers will determine what they want and how much they are willing to pay for it. I once had a discussion with a multihull builder and the topic was price. His comments (paraphrased) followed the concept of why not sell one boat at $3,000 as opposed to three boats at $1,000 each? My observation was one boat doesn’t make up a fleet or a class. If the owner of the $3,000 boat is happy sailing alone - then no problem. But when buyers want competition, then additional boats on the water are needed.

…

Roy Langbord once commented that to make a class you need boats. If we aren’t getting home builders - and if we can’t find reliable semi-production (or even hobby) builders - where do you suppose all these boats are going to come from? Now you want to add yet another design idea into the mix? Why not build to existing designs? If you can’t build them and if no one wants to buy them, yet another design sure won’t create interest.

We have Freight Train, Ghost Train, Snapdraggon, Water Resist, Nightmare (and it’s series) as well as drawings for your old concept of a box trimaran - and it seems none have spawned the great awakening. Whether your concept design is slightly heavier, or slightly lighter than current boats - the issue remains the same …who is going to build them?

I think we need action, not more debate/discussion over a specific design. Just my opinion and observations of course.

Dick Lemke
F-48 #US-06
MultiONE #US-06
Class 3 Landyacht #US-196

<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

well stated.

10

I have been a model multihull enthusiast for twenty plus years, but because of the demands of my professional life, have only ever designed and built two (so I do not count myself an expert). The first was 1.7 meters long (so long ago, the mini F-40 had not even been formulated). the second was a sort of Mini-40, but an inch or two longer, built really for my son, without the intent it should be competitive. What has always struck me is how inappropriate all the classes are to the concept of a multihull. By limiting the length and beam, the classes have ended up with overcanvassed boats that are easy to capsize. Even the two-meter class, which is supposed to be the most stable, actually capsizes quite frequently, it seems (the two times I have seen them sailed they capsized). Although multihullers often deny that their boats capsize easily, I fear that this is just a case of reality-denial. Of course, enthusiastic multihullers such as myself can live with the occasional capsize, but I believe that it is the propensity to capsize, dictated by limits on length and beam, that put many potential multihullers off. Of course, any multihull will eventually capsize if the wind is strong enough, but if the rules had simply limited the height of the mast (preferable to a limit on sail area) and let the platform take care of itself, the result would have been a more stable (and therefore more popular) and, dare I say it, more interesting class than any existing one. Still, I guess it is too late to introduce another class, so I shall attempt to convert my 1.7 meter one into two meters, add on mast height and sail area and be resigned to it going over![:-basketball]

11

Colin -

not to be argumentative - only to foster the concept of fact over opinion here…
<hr noshade size=“1”>
There are no rules in any multihull class and only a few monohull classes which require the use of maximum sail area.

[:-graduate] The fact that it is there, usually promotes it’s use. If you carefully read the MultiONE rules, several specific rule specifications have been included to favor both beginners as well as experienced builder/sailors.
To wit…

  • The length is limited (maximum) to 1 meter.
  • The beam is limited to a maximum of 48 inches (1.2 meters)
  • Sail area is limited to:
    ----Sportsman Category - 800 sq. inches
    ----Open Category - 1100 sq. inches
  • Mast height is 85 inches above the deck

So in essence, the things that many are suggesting or want are already in place - and the sizes chosen were designed to allow the use of a 1 Meter monohull rig and sail if so desired.

Nothing prohibits smaller platform sizes.
Nothing prohibits a keel with lead bulb
Nothing prohibits smaller sail area

<hr noshade size=“1”>
With the exception of physical size maximums for length, width and sail area, the Mini40/F-48 Class has no restrictions on use of existing rigs such as from a Marblehead or 10R. You can use the IOM “A” rig if so inclined. There is no depth limit, so keels from an “M” Class can be used. And again, nowhere in either class is sail area maximum mandated.
<hr noshade size=“1”>
Now given these facts, it is also well accepted that light weight and over-canvassed multihulls make up in sail area what is gained in righting moment improvements caused by wide width. With out the keel bulb of lead to help hold down the hull, gusts, slow reactions, even slower winches, and inattention cause a majority of capsizes. But for an experienced multihull sailor, the thought of reducing sail area (and power and speed) is unheard of. You see - most of us suffer from the same disease - if it’s there and it will make you faster, use it. Pretty soon however, even more experience will teach you that less sail area and even a lead keel, can be the way to the winner’s circle - <u>unlike</u> the boat that is lighter, faster, with more sail area - but floating upside down. [B)]

Again - to make it clear - nothing but your own decisions mandate you use maximum dimensions for platform, weight, or sail area. [:-graduate]

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> by Colin…so I shall attempt to convert my 1.7 meter one into two meters, add on mast height and sail area and be resigned to it going over!<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”> You help me make my point - sail it like it is, in the 2 Meter class. Nothing forces you to a minimum length, minimum sail area or minimum mast height! Please read class rules carefully before suggesting the rules and specifications are cause for capsize. Having a 500 HP engine does not necessarily mean you have to race it either.

Dick Lemke
F-48 #US-06
MultiONE #US-06
Class 3 Landyacht #US-196

12

More forgiving = more interesting class for RC-sailors yes, but for people who sail also real boats or fly rc-planes, no.

  • HJ

“Expertice is gained trough mistakes. However repeating
same mistake is not learning but stupidity.”

13

ok dick
my take on this whole thing. you inculded ersnt. is that my cat could not compete. i simple strapped 2 IOM hulls together. made a small dagger baord. ( more so just to plug the holes). put a center piece in and made a couple of other changes. I used my IOM rig. my piont is the boat worked. with the exception of thos 90 degrees stops every once in a while. what i am seeing , and this is from the outside so take this for what it is worth.
the multihull scene is a disaster. we have people paying money for nothing. big money is being paid for these boat. there is not many reggatta to sail in. the poeple that are quiting the bussiness are doing so under very strange reasons. at one piont i was very intrested in the cat idea. matt and i were talking almost evryday. but then we had the problem with doug, then peter, then ernst . now who?
the idea at the top of this is a good one. and ernst you should be proud of yourself. find out what is wrong and lets try and fix it.
ok my idea. working with matt. is for a 1 meter cat. cheap to build. i may even try and do the molds. so as to get more out. use parts we have around the house. like an OLD iom rig. i now have 2 old rigs. that are not used. maybe a small radio. but get them out there. as for rules.
dick i think you are missing the piont. we have class rules. and that is a good thing. but what good is it , if there is no boats?
lets work on the premise that 1 meter long ,1 meter wide, use a iOM rig. and the rest is up to the builders. i for one . did not like my cat. 2 IOM hull are just too much hull without the bulb
cougar

long live the cup and cris dickson

14

Hi again! -

Cougar - thank you very much! -

What I wanted to get across, is a SIMPLIFICATION of the EXISTING CLASSES! -

And a way to make it faster,easier and CHEAPER to supply prospects with multihull platforms of good quality. -

I actually don’t care, if it will be cat or tri,
1 Meter or 1.22 Meter! -
It doesn’t matter, if carbon or fibreglass.
Also neither the mastheight, nor the sailarea is my concern! -
And I don’t care, if I build it or not.

I’m talking about a way, to get ANY serialproduction of ANY rc-multihull going! -

You need:

  1. a plan
  2. a one-off built boat of good quality
    OR a set of plugs.
  3. THEN you can make a set of female moulds!
  4. and THEN you can start a serial production!

That’s the necessary sequence and there is NO WAY to avoid that!

If there is NO AGREEMENT, to build ANY MULTIHULL
8, 9 or 10 times then there is NO REASON, to make a set of female moulds! -

The simple problem is, that for a one-off you spend about 50% of the building time on SANDING! -
Oh yes, sanding, sanding, sanding -
and when this is done,
you do FINESANDING before and between painting!!!
And this actually means for a modern trimaran -

  • no matter if 1.0 meter or 1.22 meter:

100 hours of actual BUILDING +
100 hours of sanding!!!

Oh - by the way - and it doesn’t take much more sanding time for a one-off F60 trimaran! -

The only way, to cut building- and sanding time of a one-off down, is:
less hulls!!!
-> then you have a catamaran or a monohull -
it’s as simple as that!!! -

But IF you want to have a TRIMARAN -
except you don’t care about ANY surface-quality of the hulls -
it’s 100 hours of sanding for a one-off! -

And I currently prefer, to spend 200 hours of building a one-off F60 trimaran + 100 hours of sanding it to a perfect surface!

Instead of 200 hours of building TWO smaller trimarans + 200 hours of sanding both of them! -
(and the risk of having a completed boat on the shelf for 3 years -…-)

BUT:
Of course you need a well working prototype or a proofen design first! -

But as soon as you have a set of female moulds, it would take only about 50 hours of laminating and glueing the shells together - and maybe 25 hours overall of sanding all the seams! -

This of course cuts down the overall prize of the first boat and each other boat to follow. -

The value and amount of necessary material remains the same! -

Conclusion:
A set of plugs,
with a surface good enough for the female moulds is as much work and as expensive as a one-off boat. -

A set of professional female moulds is much work and as expensive as another one-off boat! -

So if you want to build a first boat out of moulds, you have the work and the expenses of THREE complete BOATS, before you can sail ONE! -

In other words, 475 hours of work AT LEAST for the Trimaran PLATTFORM! -
Then you still have NO RIG!

Only by CHARING the costs and the building time for professional moulds within a GROUP, the expenses and the necessary effort make ANY SENSE. -

The bigger the group, the lesser is the amount, each one has to pay for the pre-production-costs! -
And in the end EACH one of them has a cheaper AND better boat with a HIGHER QUALITY!

All it needs, is an agreement, which boat should be the GROUP-BOAT -…- internationally! -

Think about it!

Best wishes, Ernst Zemann

PS:
Oh yes, I also liked to fumble around with different designs,
hull shapes and so on, but ONLY,
to find out WHICH in the best RELATION and PROPORTION
for a good, reliable and competitive ONE-DESIGN-Trimaran,
which makes sense to be used by MANY SAILORS in
MANY international race-events in the upcoming decade! -
Otherwise, each single rc-multihull-enthusiast and each single (and isolated) builder/supplier will carry on (forever) to fumble along ALONE, spending much to much time on the frustrating and disgusting job of sanding fibreglass or carbon by hand -
untill he finally gives up and quits the job or his hobby -
-…- just fading away -…-

Professional shipwright - boatbuilder/-designer with 27 years of experience and a special interest in multihulls

15

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by cougar

dick i think you are missing the piont. we have class rules. and that is a good thing. but what good is it , if there is no boats?
lets work on the premise that 1 meter long ,1 meter wide, use a iOM rig. and the rest is up to the builders. i for one . did not like my cat. 2 IOM hull are just too much hull without the bulb
cougar

long live the cup and cris dickson
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Cougar -
I don’t think I’m missing the point. There are currently three (3) reasonable opportunities for folks who want to try a multihull. A 1 Meter, a 1.2 meter/48 inch and a 2 Meter. So why would you elect to tie two IOM boats together? It makes no sense, and it isn’t worthy of comment. It simply does not represent any of these classes except for size. Certainly there are free plans available for someone to build to any of them. You elected to “cheap-out” to give it a try. It failed, so why is that an issue for us? Everything YOU want is out there - some of it free. As for builders - sorry, not my problem!

I have provided enough information to allow a reasoned choice of boats and designs. I have provided several ways in which to build - depending on the builder’s choice. I have repeated myself regarding catamarans versus trimarans until blue in the face. Now lets switch to Ernst.

For all his past building/shipping shortcomings, he has posted drawings and plans on the web. He freely provides information, sizes, weights, etc. to anyone. He was the first person to make the idea and basic drawings of a box-built trimaran available on the web, and I had posted photos helping him promote the concept when one guy in Germany built a Mini40 in about two weeks ! Two weeks ! He has yet to endorse the concept of an r/c catamaran.

Doug - when he was posting suggested a cat, but with foils or moveable ballast, but even Doug’s production foiler was a trimaran.

Peter Birch and his crew down below have used “Marbleheads” as main hulls with floats from currently available designs. They worked, they had fun racing together, but you will recall Peter changed philosophy when he was soundly beaten by a purposely built trimaran - not a monohull conversion.

Ian Sammis built and shipped trimarans. He experimented with a cat design, but haven’t heard any more of it.

So let’s go back to your efforts. Everyone agrees that multhulls need long, thin hulls, regardless of cat or tri. Not hulls 6 inches wide at waterline like IOM’s - but maybe 3-4 inches wide. So you have - in a sense - taken the “sow’s ear” and tried to make a purse from it. It didn’t work - but certainly isn’t the fault of anyone here promoting multihulls.

I cannot, nor will I attempt to address the problems of builders - or lack of them. I am not a commercial builder, nor do I want to be. I did about 7 builds for Victor Cup Class boats and two Seawinds for fun. It wasn’t fun, it became a pain, so NO, I do not want to build for people. If I decide to sell one of mine, it will be to allow me to build another. Why all/any of the guys failed at shipping is not my issue. I have looked at and investigated vacuum formed styrene hulls. Have dcided it isn’t worth it - no market.

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> Ernst - I’m talking about a way, to get ANY serial production of ANY rc-multihull going! -

You need:

  1. a plan
  2. a one-off built boat of good quality
    OR a set of plugs.
  3. THEN you can make a set of female moulds!
  4. and THEN you can start a serial production!

That’s the necessary sequence and there is NO WAY to avoid that!
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

1- plans - there are at least a dozen plans out there. GHOST TRAIN is a desing that has been built, sailed and raced by a number of people. PULSE is a former national UK winner. SNAPDRAGGON and WATER RESIST are both well thought out boats and easy for home building. Finally, NIGHTMARE (in a variety of it’s forms) has been replicated enough to identify any bad habits and have them designed out. Fact - PLANS EXIST TODAY

  1. A one off of good quality - many exist today. Take your pick - or build your own.

  2. Make your own molds

  3. Start production.

OK - that’s the easy part… now… who is going to foot bill for Guyatt winch and receiver and rudder servo? Who is going to make board and rudder? Who is going to buy, fabricate rig? Who is going to buy/build the sails? Wo is going to purchase and install the hardware and deck fittings? —need I go on?

IOM Rig on a multihull - an “OK” idea, but most if not all multihull sails are cut much flatter than monohull ones because of apparent wind issues. You can sail using one - but it isn’t optimum (as aren’t two IOM hulls or a Marblehead with floats) We try to give information, but it is a home-build game. If you want one - get a set of plans that are proven, swallow the whole idea of cost - after all it IS THREE HULLS - not one, and build a trimaran. Then go sail it. After you have done that - come back and tell us if you want to be a commercial builder!

I guess this more or less reinforces the idea, that even with good, sound suggestions, some people will ignore it - so why keep up. From here on out, I guess I am done trying to promote and suggest and explain, and will simply stick to my own thing. Any multihull bashing can go on without me trying to defend something.

Cougar and others can continue spending time trying to make multihull magic out of monohulls, Ernst can continue to discuss design philosphy and seek a concensus on single, one-design-fits-all design. Others can chase the catamaran design issue. Me - I’m tired of the efforts, so will just continue to help out Stan when needed. The efforts to provide information and recommendations, and free plans is overwhelming and there is nothing I can do to answer your complaints or gripes about multihulls that hasn’t already been said.

Cheers.

Dick Lemke
F-48 #US-06
MultiONE #US-06
Class 3 Landyacht #US-196

16

Hello,
For Multi-Hulls, this past couple of weeks have not been “Evolution” or “Revolution” they have been “Convolution”.
Instead of expanding on that which is already available, most posts have been about expanding on what MAY happen in the future.
You all know about the Past, we are living in the Present, DO something with your HANDS, not your mouths!!.
Re-designing boats that dont exist, complaining about Classes which exist, but are not used, the only aspect of Multi-hulls that is moving is in this Forum!.
I have no interest at all in Multi’s, but it grieves me to see so many able and capable people, just talking and NOT doing anything.
Come on guys, get your selves into gear!.
JayDee. [:-pirate]

17

No matter what the boat, mono or multi, if you can’t find at least ten people in the whole world to buy into your design concept, you should give it up.

Further, if you want a viable class you need racing and that means at least half a dozen people in proximity to each other who can regularly meet and sail together. If you can’t find that group to buy your product, you are in trouble.

Talk is cheap. As Dick Lemke says, nothing is stopping someone from making an investment in time and money to get a production r/c multihull going.

18

Good points Roy!

Speaking of “cheap” talk - instead of working towards a concensus of design - maybe the real question should be about perceived/expected cost?

It seems that builders either run into a process that takes too long, or they hint (or out-right state) “they were losing their a$$ on the build”.

Buyers on the other hand are trying to stay inexpensive and cross-swap parts from other classes or types of boats when possible.

Maybe we need discussion (oh God - more discussion) on what costs are, what expected costs are acceptable (in general), and what potential buyers are thinking. Hell - even if you aren’t a potential buyer, what do you think one should expect to pay? Some who have been around and sailed/purchased quality custom yachts will be significantly higher in estimates than those who have purchased one of the plastic kit boats that are “squirted out” in huge numbers by plants in Asia and China.

With some kind of idea of what buyers expect and what builders realistically need - might better shed light on the issue. Regardless of the class (1 Meter or Mini40) a person <u>CAN</u> build a competitive boat for under $1,000 - maybe even under $800 - maybe less depending on how resourceful you are. But if some of you are coming here expecting a 48 inch multihull on price par with a Seawind or other such plastic boats, education is in order.

So post here and tell us what <font size=“4”><u>YOU</u></font id=“size4”> think the market price should be. Let’s set some arbritary parameters…

  1. One Meter or Mini40/F-48 platform
  2. Trimaran configuration
  3. Round straight tube cross beams - not gull-wing style
  4. 2 channel receiver (AM or FM?)
  5. Drum winch HiTech 725
  6. Rudder servo
  7. Glass hulls (with carbon at stress points if necessary)
  8. Aluminum extruded mast and booms
  9. Professionally built sails (main and jib at max size - or should it be a “B” suit?)
  10. Glass rudder and daggerboard.
  11. Shipping/storage crate

Now we can get off the concept of a decent performing boat - by introducing all sorts of development class ideas - which is fine but not in the scope of this survey.

  • Configuration “could” eventually be a cat - with all it’s inherent problems.
  • Hulls “could” be Kelar and/or carbon
  • Cross beams “could” be formed into the popular gull-wing shape of foam, thin ply and carbon
  • Multi-channel radio gear and digital “could” be specified
  • Aluminum extruded masts and booms “could” give way to wing masts, rotating masts, foam/carbon vacuum bagged ones
  • Sails could be multi suits for varying wind conditions
  • Board and rudder “could” be made from carbon and vac-bagged
  • Rig “could” be swing type

and so forth - it is all acknowledged, and I am leaving a lot of stuff on the table for sake of cost which seems to be a major concern. I am not addressing single panel sails or epoxy versus polyester resins. Computer transmitters, modular radios, and expensive winches all are avialable - but are up to the owner to consider. So - if you want to “talk” multihulls - here is your chance. Post what YOU think is a selling price, and include comments or reasons. Let’s take a look at what you are thinking and then run it by a few builders for their experienced observations. Keep the costs based on an initial “Production run” of 15 boats. If they were built and purchased, combined with existing boats the class would be legit under AMYA and a regatta and racing could be planned which is mising as noted by Cougar.

If you want to daydream and discuss “what-ifs” now is your chance. And you don’t have to put any money up to speak your mind.

Dick Lemke
F-48 #US-06
MultiONE #US-06
Class 3 Landyacht #US-196

19

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Dick Lemke

  1. One Meter or Mini40/F-48 platform
  2. Trimaran configuration
  3. Round straight tube cross beams - not gull-wing style
  4. 2 channel receiver (AM or FM?)
  5. Drum winch HiTech 725
  6. Rudder servo
  7. Glass hulls (with carbon at stress points if necessary)
  8. Aluminum extruded mast and booms
  9. Professionally built sails (main and jib at max size - or should it be a “B” suit?)
  10. Glass rudder and daggerboard.
  11. Shipping/storage crate

<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

  1. multi1 (not that I dont like the mini40 or F48…but one meter sounds more reasonable for me at least)

2.Tri sounds the easisiest way for a noob…so I heard [grin!]

3.round cross beams…keeps the cost lower

4.I dont need…have my own

5.already bought (no comment)

6.already bought (no comment)

7.glass hulls sounds perfect

8.alumium

  1. A+B rig , but all on the same mast (cost down), no need pro sail maker here

  2. ok for glass rudder and daggerboard

  3. YUP…as the thing needs to be shipped, the only problem might be the darn mast, maybe 2 pieces.

and now, the cost!! the hardest part, it depends on so many factors…between 700 and 1000U$ without shipping…that would be my guess…but again I am no Pro at this.

This is my view…cheers

-Wis

_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _

http://www.geocities.jp/schocklm/index.htm

20

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by wismerhell

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Dick Lemke

  1. One Meter or Mini40/F-48 platform
  2. Trimaran configuration
  3. Round straight tube cross beams - not gull-wing style
  4. 2 channel receiver (AM or FM?)
  5. Drum winch HiTech 725
  6. Rudder servo
  7. Glass hulls (with carbon at stress points if necessary)
  8. Aluminum extruded mast and booms
  9. Professionally built sails (main and jib at max size - or should it be a “B” suit?)
  10. Glass rudder and daggerboard.
  11. Shipping/storage crate

<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

and now, the cost!! the hardest part, it depends on so many factors…between 700 and 1000U$ without shipping…that would be my guess…but again I am no Pro at this.

This is my view…cheers

-Wis

_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _

http://www.geocities.jp/schocklm/index.htm
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Wis - a quick question so others can follow…

Regarding the cost -

Are you suggesting the boat “Should” cost in that price range, or that YOU would be “willing” to pay that much for a boat as you described?

Big difference, and I guess I was looking at what someone would be willing to pay for a boat that only needed a transmitter to be furnished and which size platform appealed to most.

Please post your reasonable cost to purchase - then we’ll let the builders see if it is enough to cover their costs and labor to build. Yes - shipping should remain separate (and tax if applicable) as if shipped here in the states it would/should be less than any international shipping costs. Adding for shipping container is important, as one could probably run up a materials bill of $50-$75 for a nice but sturdy wooden container.

Would you please clarify when you have a chance?

Dick Lemke
F-48 #US-06
MultiONE #US-06
Class 3 Landyacht #US-196