Are you suggesting the boat “Should” cost in that price range, or that YOU would be “willing” to pay that much for a boat as you described?
I think it should cost in that price range
-Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
What about a ply wood box type tri.
make the hull panels availible here.
Cut them out and glue together.
Use alloy tube cross beams and IOM rig
cheap and easy.
Anyone who can’t build there own hulls could find someone on this site to do it for them surely?
Just an idea
Brett
Brett,
That is A GREAT idea…glueing panels together I can do!!
-Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
OK - not to put words in your mouth…
It seems you might be implying that the boat “Should” cost that much, but you might be unwilling to pay that much. Thus a builder, with a boat that costs that much to build might never sell it. People would be unwilling to pay that much even knowing it might cost close to that to build. Perhaps we are now seeing a possibility of why builders don’t build?
So if a builder has that much wrapped up in building the boat, and he adds profit for himself, how much is fair? Is 10% too high for buyers and too low for builders? ($100 profit on a $1,000 boat)
Maybe this is what caused the guys to bail out. No one wanted to pay a fair price for the boat - builders were reluctant to charge what it really cost, and buyers didn’t want to pay that much.
The whole economics of the process is interesting. Let’s see what others think the boat should cost and/or how much they would be willing to pay.
Perhaps will open a few eyes and foster some understanding from both sides of the issue.
Dick Lemke
F-48 #US-06
MultiONE #US-06
Class 3 Landyacht #US-196
Firts things first.
Design the boat…could be around 100hrs work for a well thought out and refined design.
Build a proto to test…another 100 hrs
Assuming testing is ok and no changes have to be made proceed to plug building,another 100hrs.
build the moulds…40 hrs
build first boat from mould and test all systems…40hrs
Ok ready to go into production…380hrs spent …you want to do this for a living so you will need to charge at least $30 hr( taxes,overhead etc etc)so we are in for 11K already plus materials on the moulds and test boats…lets say $13k all up to this stage.
We figure our mould is good for 100 boats…so each boat has a $130 design levy before we start.
Each production boat built to a stage where it is ready for radio and rig will take approx 40hrs building time(based on my experience)so we have $1200 labour per boat plus materials which would prob run about $250.
So there we go…a complete boat ready for its rig and radio all for about $1580.
Forgot…we need to build a crate for it to ship…another $100…And then ship it
mmmmm,starting to look expensive.
Food for thought
Brett
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Dick Lemke
OK - not to put words in your mouth…
It seems you might be implying that the boat “Should” cost that much, but you might be unwilling to pay that much.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Dick, I am ready to pay a maximum of 1000U$ without shipping! electronics exclude! as specified above…BUT before investing such an amount (yes it is for me NOW), I’d like to see pics, movies, a website and hear some reviews…
Why not making a “kit” with different levels?
-Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
GREAT, GUYS -
now you finally all arrived,
where I wanted to MEET YOU!-
Dick, Wis, Beachbum, Colin M, Brett, Cougar, Roy, JayDee, Skiffy and I - Idealist! -
(Although I know, Roy and JayDee are not really the multihull-freaks.)
10 persons discussing -
and maybe -
if WE get things sorted out here and now -
others may join in. -
Each one of us has mentioned his good points! -
I would like to answer Bretts statements first. -
Brett,
- the panel trimaran has been provided five years ago ->
-> it’s the box-section-trimaran ->
-> planned by me originally as F48-Tri ->
-> converted into a 36" Tri by James Lestos one year later ->
-> I had made a set of plugs and two 36"prototypes with rounded cross sections in 2001 - one of carbon, with straight crossbars - and one of fibreglass with curved alloy crossbars ->
-> which then lead to the foundation of the MultiOneMeter-Class by Chris Harig, Dick Lemke, Doug Lord and others! -
And the picture of the balsaplanked 1 meter trimaran on the MultiOneMeter starting page has NOT been built by me, but by a guy from UK years before -
I just FOUND that picture and SENT it to Chris! -
By the way - as far as I know, the snapdragon is a panelbuilt boat as well - it’s a UK-design and much older -…-
But I don’t think, the panel built trimaran the way to go. -
I believe, that Dick got it right in all aspects! -
A modern looking 1 Meter Trimaran
(and maybe also a 1 Meter Catamaran) -
- with rounded decks and straight crossbars! -
Would it be offending to you,
if I mention to have written that four years ago -
- several times in between in this forum and also last fall? -
I still wouldn’t have problems with sea gull wing like curved crossbars -
- I know, how to serialproduce them by now -
it’s just too much effort, to make only two or three pairs of them.
They simply look much better! -
Regarding prizes:
Let us all consider myself as a ‘semi-professional’-builder/supplier here! -
Means - I have LEARNED that job, DONE that job for years, but it is MY HOBBY as well! -
With your calculation you - Brett - came up with 380 hours for plans, plugs and moulds! -
Which is almost equal to the 400 hours I came up with - COOL! -
But I think, 10.00 US-Dollars per working hour have to be enough for that -> 4000.00 US-Dollars is still a lot! -
Divided by 10 it’s 400 bucks for each of us; -
divided by 8 it’s 500 bucks (if Roy and JayDee don’t join in). -
I have 8 or 10 different sets of designs/plans ready to start building ->
but I would be willing too, to give them to anybody else for building! -
And I wouldn’t ask for any cash for the hundreds of invested hours for drawing and calculating them completely. -
But only the plans -> I’m simply too lazy/tired/exhausted - just like Dick - to write a complete building manual for a beginner! -
The writing takes more time, than building the boat myself! -
IF I do this, then I would again take a picture of each building step -
and publish it as usual in my galleries at:
http://community.webshots.com/user/boatbuilder
As I have a new flatbed scanner now,
I can re-draw the cross sections of all 1 meter designs
on millimeter-paper together with all dimensions and radiuses,
scan them and provide them here! -
If I’m in the mood,
to build my own 1 meter trimaran during this summer,
I will do this on my own costs and time -
- but if you agree to the idea of a
SHARED SET OF FEMALE MOULDS - - and professionally build hulls, shells, kits and or completed boats, you got to pay your part of my plug- and mould-expenses
PLUS your boat! -
Furthermore - I don’t like, to be rushed! -
Kick me, while I’m working at my own speed,
- I’ll surely turn around and kick back -
- instead of working faster! -
And I surely don’t OWE this to anybody -
as that would be slavery -…-
Best wishes, Ernst Zemann
Professional shipwright - boatbuilder/-designer with 27 years of experience and a special interest in multihulls
An estimated cost of $1500 plus radio and winch for a boat that isn’t “ready to sail”; doesn’t include a fully worked out building manual; and will be delivered at an undetermined time set in the builder’s discretion?
No one in their right mind will buy that kind of product.
A “box” tri that must be completely homebuilt? Unfortunately home building is a trend of the past, not the future. Fact is, most people in today’s market prefer “ready to sail” and are not keen builders.
Want to get multi-hulls going? Someone should talk to Victor Products about supplying them with a design that will be stable for a beginner to sail; can be build with Victor’s normal, low cost techniques (vac formed hulls, wooden masts, etc.); won’t capsize or pitchpole and can be purchased retail for under $500. You might even be able to induce Victor to build the boat by soliciting pre-orders.
Basic fact, $1000 plus boats that are basically a pile of parts with no existing fleets or racing aren’t going to attract buyers.
Maybe, the real truth is that this just isn’t the time for r/c multihulls; that today they are novelties that are built and owned by a small group of people scattered around the world.
Maybe someday, but it sure looks to me like that is where this all ends up…
Roy,
My post was only to show the costs involved from a builders point of view.
I have no intention of being involved in this project in any way.
Cheers
Brett
I guess I can’t argue with Roy’s points, and as painful as they may be, he may be right about novelty.
Definitely he is correct in his assessment that unless a boat is able to be purchased “off the shelf”, there is limited appeal to building - and for a variety of reasons depending on the individual. I have said this from the first days of a class consideration. There are only so many people that line up to accept the challenge of building. Many (most) are 1 Meter monohull guys, and within that group are an even smaller number of guys who build more than two boats. I said it to Ernst and to Doug when each was trying to promote their prototype products - if you want to sell boats, they have to be ready when the customer wants them. This is not a TP52 or Maxi big boat class that a new owner is willing to wait while “somone” builds the boat for them. And even for the builder of the big boats - they are expected to meet a production/delivery schedule.
I think Ernst’s comments point a finger toward “why” many of these tried production ventures fail - <blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Furthermore - I don’t like, to be rushed! -
Kick me, while I’m working at my own speed,
- I’ll surely turn around and kick back -
- instead of working faster! -<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”> If this is the view of others and they fall behind, I (like Wis) feel perfectly in the right to have a concern about when it will be delivered. If the boat can’t be delivered, and you can’t stick with promised delivery dates, you have no reason to advertise or promote yourself as a professional builder. It would be far better for the new owners to see an ad maybe every 8 months where a new multihull is “for sale and immediate delivery”, than to try to “guess” if/when the new boat might arrive. Unfortunately, I think the past incidents about inability to ship probably has put most potential buyers in a cautionary mode - and I can’t say as I blame them.
For the time being - if anyone decides to be a builder, I think the past history dooms them to build and finance the boat on their own speculation.
Like Brett - I have no intention of being involved in a building “consortium” - although would work with local people to assist them in the process. I think - at least for the time being - any idea of taking orders for a multihull yet to be built, is a dream - and it will be some time before any credibility is gained by someone new trying to be a builder. And if they do, I am sure there will be some who will be only to eager to bring up these past episodes as examples.
My opinion is the day has come, we failed to capitalize, and for the near future, the idea of production multihull builders is as dead as some previous orders to “former” builders. It will take a lot to regain the trust of others, no matter how good the ideas or how convincing the argument.
The only thing left - is build the boat first, then sell it as ready-to-sail. Then build another. At the same time, advertsing over the web will not influence sales much - on water performance will. It would be too easy at this point in the post, to renew questions about ideas versus on-water performance —but certainly it remains true as it was a year ago.
Ernst, I am afraid I have little to no interest in your ideas about a renewed program as you outline - and definitely not with any financial support. Sorry - but like others, there has been several years where the concepts could have proven themselves. As noted - too little and too late perhaps. You are always free to prove me wrong however. I wish you well if you decide to try.
Dick Lemke
F-48 #US-06
MultiONE #US-06
Class 3 Landyacht #US-196
i think roy is right about getting a builder already set up with vac forming equipment , make it simple ,cheap, plastic, wood mast ,single panel sails,a mast float,(they are always going to cartwheel and capsize, )if people want carbon mast ,carbon cross beams,paneled sails.then they can put them on after .
one could make all three hulls the same,it would save time in makeing 2 kinds of plugs. and keep cost down.the only problem is ,Demand ,there isn’t enough demand for the product , if there was we wouldn’t be haveing this discusion some body would all ready have a kit out there, as some one said befor the big compays treid and failed.
if people want a multihull they will have to build one themselvse ,it’s not hard ,and there are plenty of people willing to help.I built one on the coffe table at home in an appartment ,it took a long time but it was worth it . but not worth doing it for some one else.
people need to build and then register there boats so we get a formal class then we need fleets around the country then there may a good kit boat on the market.
until that happens the revolution will go no were FAST
such is life!
YEP - that’s EVOLUTION! -
As I wrote before -
- there is NO AGREEMENT there -
nor has there been ANY possiblility to get an AGREEMENT five years ago or in between. -
The multihull-group is only about 1 % of the monohull group - if it’s that much at all. -
And all the time all the risk has been burdened on the shoulders of the few ‘BRAVE’ suppliers - or persons, who tried to be and where willing to be. -
Prospects and or potential customers are telling what they want, how much they would be willing to pay for - maybe they even tell a supplier, how long they would be willing to wait for their product. -
But not ONE of them is willing to take the responsibility to increase the SPEED OF BUILDING by making it easier for the supplier in ANY WAY! -
Therefore the suppliers - who HAD BEEN WILLING BEFORE - simply withdraw and leave those prospects on their own.
Unfortunately enough, exactly these SAME PROSPECTS are just too WILLING, to HANG those suppliers then, when they cannnot meet the deliverydate, or when they fail or give up because of the unbareable financial situation,
this general attitude creates -…-
Then these suppliers get blamed by the same crowd for their ‘unreliability’ - and are even banned sometimes -…-
As I wrote before -
I owe you nothing -
- I didn’t even owe you this explanation of these facts. -
But as I am one of the good and patient guys,
I at least tried to explain it to you. -
If YOU ALL FAILED to get a reliable and working international rc-multihull-group together - don’t blame us - the BRAVE suppliers - for that. -
Best wishes, Ernst Zemann
Professional shipwright - boatbuilder/-designer with 27 years of experience and a special interest in multihulls
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Idealist
Unfortunately enough, exactly these SAME PROSPECTS are just too WILLING, to HANG those suppliers then, when they cannnot meet the deliverydate, or when they fail or give up because of the unbareable financial situation,
this general attitude creates -…-
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Common Ernst - stop the finger pointing - PLEASE !
Read your quote and tell me why “ANYONE” should wait almost 1 year to get what they paid for?
Do us all a favor - post one of your ready-to-sail multihulls on a classified site and see if anyone takes the bite - advertise it as ready to ship !
<u>THEN</u> - the real reasons lay squarely on your shoulders - namely:
-
Your desired cost versus the buyers desire to pay the amount.
-
The boat is ready to ship - the buyer only needs to wait while you pack it up and send it! [Something you have failed to do several times.] At most, given personal priorities, if a boat is ready to be sold, it should not (I repeat SHOULD NOT) take more than one week to pack it up and ship it off!
With turnaround like that, <u>ANY</u> buyer would be happy and pleased with the service. Now the cost is another thing - and if you have a huge price, please assume you will have limited/less interested potential buyers.
As far as financial abilities - once again - that is <u>YOUR</u> problem as a supplier. If a buyer sends you the money you asked for, it is not the buyer’s responsibility if you don’t make money on the build! I’m not sure what economical model you think requires the buyer to worry about your financial position.
If you can sell your boats RTS but without radio TX for $1000, post an ad and see what you get.
If you need $1500 to cover your costs - post an ad and see what you get.
If you need $2000 to cover your costs - post an ad and see what you get.
Don’t sell a boat for $1,000 and then decide AS YOU BUILD you are losing your a$$ and expect the buyer to shell out more money. THAT is why I am suggesting you (or any builder) build a boat first, decide how much it takes to get what you want and then offer it for sale. You continue to brag about how many boats you have built - surely if that number is true, you should have some handle on how much it actually cost you to build, and how much it needs to be priced to sell.
Man - for a person with the supposed 27 years of professional boatbuilding experience - I just still cannot understand how common Economics and Marketing 101 theory escapes you?
Maybe take some university or business classes and try to understand how supply and demand work - and look at any successful marketing program - They usually all have costs involved <u>BEFORE</u> they sell the item - not durring or after.
None of us - speaking for most potential buyers - is in the position of providing you with capital funds for a start-up business. If you can’t fund yourself - visit a bank or loan company for start-up venture funds.
I repeat myself one last time - <font color=“red”>if the boat isn’t ready to be shipped - don’t try to sell it. </font id=“red”>Buyers are too impatient to wait until “YOU” (or any builder) decides to build it (after taking their money).
Dick Lemke
F-48 #US-06
MultiONE #US-06
Class 3 Landyacht #US-196
Hello,
Unless a prospective builder has at least a basic understanding of Supply and Demand, all he can supply is hardship for himself and his customers.
I have been in the supply and demand business for 21 years, listening to what folk require and supplying the items at the right price.
Not always with great success, competitors can sometimes beat you to mark, but if you are smart, you win.
Gaps in the market have to be sought out and used correctly, prices may have to be cut down to the bone, wait for your competitors to go under, then, slowly raise your price!.
Never, ever raise a price while a deal is in progress, lose money on it, finish the deal, say nothing about it, then find out where you went wrong.
Ernst makes a big deal in his siggy of “Professional shipwright - boatbuilder/-designer with 27 years of experience and a special interest in multihulls”.
I dont doubt for one moment that he has worked in shipbuilding for 27 years, but NOT in Marketing, or Sales, I may be wrong,I hope I am,
but what he writes on this Forum leads me to believe I am right.
So Ernst, just what do you do in shipbuilding, that qualifies you to tell us all how to sell MODEL boats?
JayDee. [:-pirate]
edit spelling!
Dear JayDee,
you actually got it right! -
27 years of actual shipbuilding -
but almost no experience with marketing and or selling! -
I had been into research projects for:
- 50ft cruiser/racer catamarans -
- 26ft to 33ft. daysailer trimarans and catamarans -
- even into 17ft to 33 ft racing and cruising proas -
- (the 39ft Cruising-proa in my galleries hasn’t been built so far) -
-yep, also monohulls - but that’s not my area really - - and lots of other jobs and projects too numerous to tell here. -
- I even started to write a book about the polynesian arts of boatbuilding. -
What I can do:
Research,
prototype-building,
one-off-building -
YES; -
-but -
I’ve never been into serialproduction of any boats -
-
neither big boats nor models -
-
nor have I been ever into promotion, marketing and selling business! -
-
There have always been other persons in the TEAM, who took care of that specific areas. -
Regarding these areas I’m truely an amateur. -
-
Why should I be ashame of the truth! -
-
I’m good in MY AREA! -
-
But if there was ANY DEMAND before,
there was ALWAYS a way,
to get a RELIABLE TEAM TOGETHER! -
For each and every bigger project you NEED A TEAM - it CANNOT be done SINGLEHANDED! -
But five years ago -
- while I still proceeded with my ‘old’ business -
- I simply liked the idea of giving up my 100m2 workshop (with all included costs) -
- and build all my further designs/models in a spare room of 15m2 in my flat. -
Let me repeat that:
If there was ANY DEMAND,
there was always a way,
to get a reliable TEAM together! -
In the years before -
if I needed a set of sails for a project,
I simply contacted the projectmanager and/or the financial department of the company,
told them what is needed and I GOT MY SAILS! -
They where simply ordered from ANOTHER PROFESSIONAL! -
I never had thought, I will ever need to build my own sails! -
Or even to LEARN how to make them! -
But during the last five years I learned it somehow. -
But the fact that drives me crazy,
is the said-to-be ‘impossibility’ to get a TEAM together for these rc-multihulls!!! -
I’m NOT the sailmaker! -
I’m NOT the marketing and sales manager! -
I’m NOT the financial expert! -
(and I’m not even a good spraypainter -…-)
I’m the designer,
I’m the prototype-developer -
I’m the plug- and female mould-maker -
I’m the boatbuilder! -
I’m a TEAM-PLAYER! -
But where the HELL is the rest of the TEAM??? -
Even IF we all just consider ourselves as dedicated amateurs -
or especially BECAUSE we all consider ourselves as dedicated amateurs:
Each one of us has his specific capabilities! -
I’m sure there is someone around here,
who is a professional shipping consultant! -
I’m sure, there is a marketing and sales manager around here! -
I’m sure, there is a sailmaker also! -
And someone, who just likes to laminate professional shells out of perfect female moulds -
one set after the other! -
There are professional administrators around! -
There also might be some good project-managers there! -
So why don’t we join together? -
Maybe all that is needed, to get a working class together,
is the exceptance - the AGREEMENT - about ONE boat - the 1 meter ‘PULSE’ for example -
-and someone, how is in contact with an american, european or ASIAN serialproduction plant! -
Or somebody, who is able to establish that contact ->
-> who finds out production costs ->
-> who dares to get the production going ->
-> who imports them to the USA and to EUROPE. -
If there is NO AGREEMENT about an existing prototype -
(and a prototypes is defined as: one to five units built) -
- then I would agree to design,build and testsail a NEW PROTOTYPE. -
Calculate the costs and necessary building time as precise as possible and -
then hand ALL DATAS over to the next specialist,
who can THEN take care to get ‘climate models’ or ‘victor boats’ or ANY OTHER company to start the production. -
And THEN a sales and marketing manager out of this community can join in to provide them to the costumers. -
That’s just a rough concept -
just my idea, how it could work out! -
If we get an AGREEMENT,
and IF we start acting as a TEAM -
instead of a bunch of not organised individuals not able to find an AGREEMENT. -
Fumbling along alone with all above mentioned consequences. -
Think about it! -
Best wishes, Ernst Zemann
Professional shipwright - boatbuilder/-designer with 27 years of experience and a special interest in multihulls
Please Note.
There will be no further comments or correspondence from me in the future on this Subject.
April 25 2005.
JayDee.
Dear JayDee,
I’m sorry you don’t want to continue this,
as I think your statements are valuable -
but it is surely your right to do so. -
Neither do I have any intention to ‘force’ anybody into something he doesn’t want to do -
nor do I like to be forced by somebody else into something I don’t want to do - or be! -
Best wishes, Ernst Zemann
Professional shipwright - boatbuilder/-designer with 27 years of experience and a special interest in multihulls
EERRRRRR
Why don’t you guys start by focusing on those concepts were you agree? From there you can move forward. Up until now, your are concentrated on signaling those points where you think the other party is wrong. Is like dog running behind his tail.
My 2 cts.
Marino
The more I practice, the luckier I get.
Dear Marino,
I agree with you! -
All this moving back and forth with NO RESULTS is exhausting me! -
I clearly pointet out,
what I would be willing to do -
under which circumstances and conditions. -
And what I am NOT willing to do! -
No fingerpointing at all.
All that is really needed here are maybe five guys to start with -
- and they don’t even need to pay anything -
- they don’t need to ORDER ANY BOAT -
they just need to AGREE TO ONE BOAT! -
They just need to make up their minds and TELL me:
I would like boat -…- or
I like the shape of boat -…- or
I would like the boat paintet in PINK -…- or
-…- or WHATEVER! -
Just clear statements!-
No work from them involved,
no need for ANY upfront payment of any kind,
just a NEED to tell me, what they would like to see! -
Or do I really expect too much here? -
Best wishes, Ernst Zemann
Professional shipwright - boatbuilder/-designer with 27 years of experience and a special interest in multihulls
Sorry guys,
I am following this discussion since 2 years. The players changed, but the story is still the same.
Ernst, if you read the posts carefully you find all the answers to the questions you ask.
There are maybe just 200 people worldwide who sail RC multis. My guess 70% of them have build there boats on their own. Many of them probably - like me, like you - because they like the developement- and the Do-it-yourself character of this field.
RC multis have been sold before and will be sold in the future. But mostly just prototypes that have been build, used, and improved until it was time to go on. (-> completed, tested boats)
See the truth: There’s no market for selling multis on a big scale. Not even on a smaller…
The few people who build multis do this as a hobby.
I would never build a ship for someone else. I like to build, leave it when I am busy with work, start again and so on. I don’t want anyone waiting, cause I couldn’t guarantee anything. Also I wouldn’t like to be part of a team that obviously will not share my working rythm.
What if you need sails, but the teams sailmaker is busy with work. You would probably start kicking and screaming to get anything, like all the guys in the past who were waiting for their Tris to be built/shipped.
You state, that you are a professional boat builder. You say you are used to professional teams. There you go…
Contact Robbe or Graupner and send them you resume and some samples of your skills. They have the marketing department, they have the factories and the distribution network.
They have already tried to promote RC Multis, so they seam to be open to this idea.
If they think your concepts make economical sense they will surely be happy to give you the professional support you deserve.
In other respects I think it is time to finish this matter and stop flooding so many threads with this discussion.
Read the posts from two years back. Its always the same story. I personally don’t like to go in circles.
Just my 2 Euro-Cent.
Marcus
PS: Ernst, just a note about netiquette: writing words upper case with exclamation marks usually means to yell. Not sure, if that is what you mean?