Eurgle Winch problems

Rcsailing.net Technology Discussions
1

Hi Guys,

Last few months Graupner had run out of stock of my preffered Regatta 5172 winch used for 800 cm2 sail area IACC 120 that runs above 10kg. Looked around and could not find anything else that runs directly off 7.4 V Lipo (2 cell) excepting the very expensive RMG 280 until some-one recommended Eurgle winches from Hong Kong (Chinese I know always skeptical too)

64.5 g model specs are good (12 kg @ 7.2 V) with good speed and at incrediable price of only 15 Euro each, so I ordered six and including shipping it worked out less than price of one new Regatta winch.

Using my trusty FM 40 Mhz TX threw one in the boat and connnected to direct to 7.4V Lipo (via Rx) and as reported has lot jitters but tested out ok on the bench, in the water and after 2 hours it was like it lost signal to Rx and winch did huge over-run and ripped the block out of the deck :mad: trhis is when my problems began

Cut long story short, the history of six winches goes:

#1: Over-running: Pulled block out of deck - Tx Analog FM 40 Mhz direct from 7.4V lipo - run time 2 hrs until trash can
#2: Jammed: Sheeting caught on post - Tx Analog FM 40 Mhz direct from 7.4V lipo - run time 1 day until trash can
#3: Over-running: no boat damage - Tx Analog FM 40 Mhz direct from 7.4V lipo - run time 2 hrs until trash can

From here on figured the FM TX was problem so switched over to 2.4 system, when switched it on first time jitters had gone, great digital TX was possibly the problem.

#4: Over-running: no boat damage - Tx Digital 22.4 GHz direct from 7.4V lipo - run time 2 hrs until trash can
#5: Jammed: no boat damage - Tx Digital 22.4 GHz direct from 7.4V lipo - run time 2 hrs until trash can

Ok now only one left :rolleyes: added BEC to kick it down to 6 Volt and programmed the TX fail safe to 50% sheet travel, turned off the TX while the RX was still on and sure enough the failsafe worked with winch moving to 50% sheet position, good to go me thinks ? This was a classic, right on 2 hrs sailing brought the boat on shore (only because I had to swim after the boat twice before) put boat on it’s stand and bingo off it went & just manged to switch it off before it self-destructed.

Any ideas on what could be the problem ? or am I just getting what I paid for …JUNK !

My problem is that Graupner still have no supply of their regatta winches anywhere in Europe, any other worth while winch recommmendations I can try ?

Cheers Alan

P.S Pic reminds of that kids song, there are 6 green Eurgles sitting on the wall, if one should accidently fall there will be 5 green Eurgles sitting on the wall …etc . shet happens uh !

2

Hello Alan,

Seems to me that after 2 hours something changes in the system.
Can you monitor the voltages going to the Tx and the winch, while doing a “sailing session”, on the workshop bench.
A 2 hour session is long enough to make a faulty battery start to show its self - - but which one?.
Play sailing, with one eye on the Clock!.

John.

3

Sorry Alan for that !
Out of my 5 Eurgle 3 digital and 2 analog no problems so far after more than 10 hours work.
Jitter present with one TX Hitec Ranger 3Ch Sky and gone with the Hitec Laser 4Ch
Some servos powered with 4.8V and some with 6V.

7.4V may be the cause since producing 20% more dissipation.

Cheers
ClaudioD

4

Hi John, I can only get 3-4 hrs per day to practice for up coming Italian IACC 120 championship at end of month & with new boat this thing has had me bamboozled, batteries, Tx/Rx’s servo’s BEC’s etc. etc. everyday the same, my process of elimination has been through all types of batteries (any one need to buy any?) even put heat dissaptor on BEC cable but only the winch was failing, rudder servo has been running perfectly.

Claudio no need for apologies, I thought changing to 2.4 would fix the problem but alas not, well I’m not one to fiddle with small thing like servo’s, everytime I pull one apart springs and little things pop out all over the place …but I had nothing to lose, at least I had six to check how they go back together again :confused: so took the dive and pulled first one apart.

I was shocked :scared: they’re all plastic gears and found the problem imediately “stripped gears” (see pic below) I’ve know companies build obsolescence into their products so they fail specific time, and you have to buy another …but these guys have crossed the boarder ! 2 hours and trash it.

But it is my own fault, I read the Eurgle spec sheet (above) again and the Eurgle 64,5g is 12 Kgf (kilogram-force) has no mention of plastic gears :confused: and the lower spec 56g rated @ 9.5 Kgf states it has metal gears :rolleyes: I just assumed the higher force servo would also have metal gears, but the price for higher 12 Kgf (palstic gears) is lower than 9.5 Kgf (metal gears) … it is beyond me why anyone would do such a thing !? I got sucked in by the price :lol:

Now going to start a bomb fire in my backyard and toast some Chinese servo’s and celebrate my stupidness now I’ve solved the problem.

Thanks for feedback gentleman :slight_smile:

Cheers Alan :zbeer:

5

Alan,

I have several futaba metal geared servos, and when I take them apart, inevitably there is always ONE plastic gear in the mix… and its alwasy the one stripped…

Well I guess a stripped gear is better than something more $$$$ on the boat…

I love my RMG on my ec12 but dayum i’m always very cautious when I power it up. it will rip bulkheads out if you are not careful…

6

Hi Alan

What a bummer, I can’t believe you have had such a bad run on those winches… I have had to throw two away as I toasted them in salt water.
I have had no issues with them failing under load. I am wondering if they have changed the plasic gears for some very sub standard items.
I am now very cautious about buying any more after hearing this…

7

This reminds me of the quote about Detroit autos. . . you can have good, fast and cheap. . . pick any two!

As the gears are stripping, it sounds like the gears cannot handle to torque produced by the motor. Time to give up and try something else.

Servo City sells gear boxes that mount on the servo to provide additional power as the sacrifice of some speed. This works well with a conventional servo and voltage reducer. There are now Hitec ‘high voltage’ servos that can run on 2s lipos without use of a BEC or voltage reducer. These also work well, but the price is approaching that of an RMG. Some Hitec servos come with metal or titanium gears.

http://www.servocity.com/index.html

John

8

Very bad !

One could think about an arm servo or still accept the slow 785BB of hitec
There are for different power, but all need to be mounted as such to avoid overtravel stresses otherwise they will burn out as well. The arm servos are faster. See what use Renato Chiesa on his AC120 !
Many can be found here : http://www.servodatabase.com/servos/blue-bird
Cheers
ClaudioD

9

I’ve gone through 3 of the digital Eurgle winches (metal gear) on my Marblehead so far.

Things I have found out.

  1. Use a programmable Tx and set the EPA so there is no chance in heck it can bind up. Or it will burn out.
    1a. Also make sure the EPA values equal for each side, e.g. EPA 23, EPA 23 to get the desired travel.
  2. Open the servo up, spray the motor, circuit board, and hall sensor, with contact cleaner. Helps clear up the “jitters”. (may not get rid of them, but lessens them)
  3. Verify all the O-rings are good. Especially on the output shaft. When you have things apart, use some extra dielectric grease around the O-rings for better waterproofing.
  4. Use LiFE batteries, instead of LiPO. They just don’t like a fully charged LiPO (8.4V before it falls off to the nominal 7.4V)

To top it off… R2Hobbies will exchange dead, burnt out ones (make sure the gears aren’t stripped) :stuck_out_tongue: Just email them with details (Tx, Rx brand, Battery specs, what the issue(s) are) and get a RMA number.

I just keep sending them back. Why? How else will the manufacturer know they have issues. There really isn’t a good source for basic winches anymore (GWS are just to dang slow). If this can get Eurgle to make improvements, all the better. Sure shipping costs suck, almost as much as the servos themselves.

10

If you go with an arm servo look up the “Stollery Power Lever” in the Footy forum. This system reduces the load on the servo at the all in position. Jim Linville has a neat adaptation of the idea which allows the arm to slide out in the all out position to provide more arm length/sheet length.

Good luck with fixing your winch problems.

11

Hi Guys,

I’m thinking about arm servo now, I need 310 mm sheeting travel and fear may not have enough space inside the hull, will look into it, thanks.

As Guzz says, you just can’t find any good strong winches today at responsible price unless go for RMG, I have one ES 280 came standard with my Sprinta with Genoa & it can rip your legs off at the blink of an eye …and I have 5 different boats and won’t fork out for another 4 RMG’s as great as they are.

Claudio, I have 785 BB and GWS as well which are strong and reliable enough but you can go and have your lunch waiting for it to do complete sheet travel.

You can’t buy Graupner regatta’s any longer until they start production which they say will be next month & that is the second delay to their schedule … so who knows !

Jim, I think that is the problem, but I mean under “heavy load”, it’s coming into autumn and the winds in my parts pick considerably and I’m constantly sailing in 10-15+ knots, but I don’t believe there will be problem with these Eurgles in lighter air.

Guzz, great feedback on your experiences do you think BEC will over-come the Lipo voltage fall-off issue ? I have some many Lipo’s now I honestly don’t like to buy LiFe versions. Given the options or lack of them !!! … I have ordered 3 metal gear versions that now I’m concerned that I will be changing my problem to toasting’em rather than strippin’em, I wonder if I can ask them to put metal gears on their 64,5g 12 Kgf version ?

Good to know about their RMA system for toasted servo’s, it was never offered this following detailed explanation of my problems, just got “sorry about that” but I’m pretty sure they knew that I had stripped gears after send them this Vid.

//youtu.be/Wu5xDpYI3to

“you can have good, fast and cheap. . . pick any two!” John you have been brain washed by the Chinese my friend :stuck_out_tongue: why R2Hobbies can’t get it right, a very simple fix for a huge leap in quality, even it meant extra few $$$ more…and they would own the sail winch market !

Cheers Alan

12

Alan, look at the hitech 7955 digital with titanium gears. I run lipo’s with no regulator with no problems so far in 6 months of use.

plenty quick, so quick I had to use the programmer to slow it down. I use it on my soling, I can get almost 18 inches of travel with a double purchase with the servo in the center of the hull… and a 4.5" winch arm with 180* of travel… its not cheap. but just as powerful, IMO as the rmg…at half the cost and half the weight

Motor Type: Coreless
Bearing Type: Dual Ball Bearing
Speed (4.8V/6.0V): 0.19 / 0.15
Torque oz./in. (4.8V/6.0V): 250 / 333
Torque kg./cm. (4.8V/6.0V): 18.0 / 24.0
Size in Inches: 1.57 x 0.78 x 1.45
Size in Millimeters: 39.88 x 19.81 x 36.83
Weight ounces: 2.29
Weight grams: 64.92

13

Hi Alan,
Probably I think that the problem is not with the servo in spite of the plastic gears, Also the Hitec 785 has similar gears.
For me the problem may come from the lenght of the rope/sheet when close hauled.
With all pulled conditions, the servo is still pulling because it may receive the signal from the TX and therefore has not terminate the complete revolution.
Under these conditions the servo is continuing pulling and get overheated by the internal dissipation while the gears are suffering of the backlash.
The backslash is due by the play / tollerance of the gears tooths. In oder words the tooth are continuosly beating each other until the wheaker start to break. :

Good luk

Cheers
ClaudioD

14

Another option, gearbox

http://servocity.com/html/spg400a-4_3_servo_gearbox.html

15

Alan,

A BEC should take care of the voltage issues. But most BEC’s output to 4.8V, which will slow down the servo. But I’ve heard of some that allow you to set the output voltage at either 4.8V or 6.0V. Also, watch the amp capacity. To low, and the servo will burn out your BEC under load.

Weird timing, I too have been looking at the Graupner winches lately, thanks for pointing out that they are out till they make more.

But you’re right, Eurgle could corner the market for winches. The digital is awesomely fast, decent torque, but as you’ve found, finicky as all get out. Their only redeeming factor is that they are cheap, buy several at a time cheap.

The only other option is to try to get Futaba to remake their drum winch (very similar to Graupner’s drum winch). I already wrote them suggesting that they should get back in that market.

P.S.
One more thing about the Eurgle Digital: You’ll know you’ve over torqued it when it starts to stop moving. But “kick starting” it with your fingers will get it going, for awhile. When that happens, just take it out and put in another one. It will completely fail soon after.

16

In my non-rmg equipped boat, I use this voltage regulator to reduce the Lipo 2s voltage to 6v. It has a jumper to set it for 5 or 6v.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor … oduct=6313

John

17

That’s a nice find, John. I have used a Castle Creations CC-BEC set to 6V to run my rudder servo and let the full 7.2V (LiFe) go to my Hitech arm winch. This looks like a stronger alternative.

18

Hi Guys,

Have measured up a boat (pic below) for possible servo arm surgery & max beam 180 mm estimate I need at lease 240 mm :confused: I’m sure there is a work around this small challenge but I’m really not wanting to go through the hassle of cutting up the deck and bonding in new fitting for the servo.

Then I’ve spend few weeks getting the weight distribution perfect with a hands free helm and not really sure with the new weight distribution required for an arm to get back to what I have now …so this idea is on the back burner as final desperate option for now, but thanks for the thoughts.

Claudio, interesting reading but I ask myself if in this era of digital servos, whether these issues are really still relevant today? further, I understand there high strength plastic and there is cheap plastic, from last time I explored the inner workings of a Hitec it was high strength stuff & the plastic used in the Eurgles is definately not longer from high strength variety, if they ever were ?

Tallastro, those gear boxes look interesting will look into it little further but looks like the pricing is getting up there

John & Guzz, the BEC I’m using can be switched between 6V & 5V and has capicity of 15 Amps http://www.voltmaster.de/power-supply-systems/Hype/Hype-U-BEC-Alpha-BEC-8A-059-5008.html and seems to do it’s job albeit I have not got my head completely around it, I’m no sparkie so I hope it right ? :stuck_out_tongue: bloody thing lights up like a Christmas tree lights, when it’s on.

I took a bridging solution and have ordered 3 of the digital Eurgles (metal gears) you have been using Guzz, but with your M-Class having smaller sail area and you’re toasting them occasionally, I don’t hold much hope for IACC 120 using larger 800 cm2 sail area.

Finally, I’ve asked the guys R2Hobbies if they would consider upgrading the 64,5 12 Kpf to metal gears and gave them link to this forum topic, hopefully they will read it and think about taking some action.

Post your opinions for R2Hobbies people to read guys … it just might help us all finally get a real “user driven quality/value winch” rather than just a cheap wanna be winch :rolleyes:… Ok I wake up from this dream now

Cheers Alan

19

I usually modify servos to make them winches. I have found the cheaper servos tend to not have very good mosfets to amplify the current. They really only operate at higher torques for a very brief time before they burn themselves out. They may be rated at 9.5kgf, but they can only hold it for a second or so. On a winch, though, they need to hold the torque for long periods. I would say that the Eurgle winch is really only good for up to maybe a one meter if you sail in any wind.

20

Alan, if you replace the winch in its current location with an arm, it looks like keel trunk/mast step and your sunken cockpit, that you might only get 90* of travel, which won’t be enough…

you are definitely in a pickle…