Combine the multihull classes

My idea here is to combine the mini40 us mini40 and the formula48 into one set of rules.
I think simply
48"(1250mm) long maximum
48"(1250mm) width maximum
weight is free
rig restricted to .9sm (measured mini40 way)
construction materials are free
foils and movable ballast are permissable providing they don’t protrude beyond the vertical extremities of the hull
two channel radios
boats to be recognisable as either cat’s, tri’s or proa’s
obviously these rules would need to be refined and discussed but they also need to be as simple as possible
Reasons I thinking these rules to start with,
The length and width allows all current designed boat in the “old” categories to sail under these new rules.
Weight is free allowing for very light boats or lead bulbs on keels etc.
In Australia we have found that .9sm is plenty of sail area once you figure out how the measuring system actually works.
The next point concerning foils etc explains itself.
Keeping to a two channel radio setup keeps the costs involved relatively low keeping the class available to anyone who wishes to get involved.
The next point I think again explains itself.
Peter

Peter, I don’t speak for the Formula 48 Class “officially” but as co-founder and a participant in writing our rules I have definite opinions on the points you raise.
When we were working on the F48 rules here we were of the opinion that after an initial period the rules should be locked in so that they could not be changed by a small minority that ,for instance, didn’t like a particular rule as happened in the 10 Rater and Marblehead Classes reagrding spinnakers. And so our rules cannot legally be changed for a long time.
It would be great if we could all race under one rule and Dick and I talked to everybody we could back then to try to get some explanation why the French were racing with a set of rules that were contradictory and still referred to the IYRU. We were told to just nevermind.
The F48 rules were the result of trying to provide a true open development class with straight forward rules and no artificial measurement quirks as found in the mini 40 rules especially in regard to rigs and rig planforms…
Limiting a modern development class multihull to two channels seems way out of line especially in the same context of being willing to allow movable ballast and foils. You can’t have movable ballast or a retractable foil system w/o three to four channels.
Limiting foils by using the terminology" vertical extremities of the hulls" won’t work because that could be used to prevent a stern hung t-foil rudder that is within the overall length allowed by the rules.
So the two main sticking points appear to be the two channel idea- and the fact that under our “constitution” the F48 rules are locked in and cannot be changed.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Peter _Birch

My idea here is to combine the mini40 us mini40 and the formula48 into one set of rules.
I think simply
48"(1250mm) long maximum
48"(1250mm) width maximum
weight is free
rig restricted to .9sm (measured mini40 way)
construction materials are free
foils and movable ballast are permissable providing they don’t protrude beyond the vertical extremities of the hull
two channel radios
boats to be recognisable as either cat’s, tri’s or proa’s
Weight is free allowing for very light boats or lead bulbs on keels etc.
Keeping to a two channel radio setup keeps the costs involved relatively low keeping the class available to anyone who wishes to get involved.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Hi Peter -

Responding in an “official” capacity, regarding the above items…

The F-48 Class already has addressed the following issues and our class rules include them - or see comment following each one.

(1) 48"(1250mm) long maximum - <font color=“green”>DONE</font id=“green”>
(2) 48"(1250mm) width maximum - <font color=“green”>DONE</font id=“green”>
(3) weight is free - <font color=“green”>DONE</font id=“green”>
(4) rig restricted to .9sm (measured mini40 way)- <font color=“green”>DONE</font id=“green”>- <font color=“red”>SORTA - We use total sail area measured, and do not use/specify the Mini40 way of sail measurement as it is applicable only to triangular sails-and does not address fat-head or rectangular sail plans. It also does not address wing masts or sails.</font id=“red”>
(5) construction materials are free - <font color=“green”>DONE</font id=“green”>
(6) foils and movable ballast are permissable - <font color=“green”>DONE</font id=“green”>
(6a) providing they don’t protrude beyond the vertical extremities of the hull - <font color=“green”>MUST FIT INTO 48 x 48 box (1250mm x 1250mm)- DONE </font id=“green”>
(7) two channel radios - <font color=“red”>NOT DONE </font id=“red”><font color=“red”>- need additional channels to control ballast and/or foils if you are allowing them.</font id=“red”>
(8) boats to be recognisable as either cat’s, tri’s or proa’s - <font color=“green”>DONE</font id=“green”>
(9) Weight is free allowing for very light boats or lead bulbs on keels etc. - <font color=“green”>SAME as #3 ABOVE - DONE</font id=“green”>
(10) Keeping to a two channel radio setup keeps the costs involved relatively low keeping the class available to anyone who wishes to get involved. - <font color=“red”>NOT DONE </font id=“red”>-<font color=“red”> SEE COMMENTS # 7 above</font id=“red”>

As you can see, the F-48 Class has pretty much addressed these issues in “our” rules. One area missing from the old Mini40 rules was issues of measuring solid wing sails or wing masts - which are included in our rules. We have decided to include “ALL” sail area - including strange shapes and large roaches. It appears the only differences noted, are two …

Item #1 is the number of radio channels. If you are willing to allow foils or moveable ballast, then the skipper must have some form of control over them. This requires channels in addition to sheeting and steering. If you allow foils and moveable ballast, then additional radio channels are mandatory. If you want to limit radio channels, then the allowed foils and ballast rule must be removed. There was also discussion at the time about needing additional channels if one wanted to control the jib separately from the main - or if a cat configuration such as “TEAM PHILLIPS” where two main sails on two masts would need to be controlled.

Item #2 is relative to the name of the class. I have fought the battle with the French FFV in an effort to retain the name “Mini40” but update rules and lost that one, big time. <u>IF</u> you change the original Mini40 Rules, you cannot call the class Mini40 - based on correspondence and emails from a variety of French Class members. That is why we had to come up with “Formula 48” as a name. The alternative is to submit your ideas for change to the FFV and seek a class rules change, and perhaps you will have success.

Doug is correct regarding our F-48 Rules, in that they are “in place” for major changes for 10 years. It also takes a 75% majority of registered owners to vote on change - not just a percent of those voting.

Since the only difference is number of radio channels (that I can see in your above proposal) I can see no major benefit in combining the classes, and am not sure I want to re-fight that battle all over again.

I know there is a club or two down there that is using the “Proposed” modified U.S. Mini40 Rule that we put forth. I cannot control what clubs decide to do on their own. Our effort to mdofiy the Mini40 uUles ended in late 199 - early 2000. Nothing prevents your clubs from using our F-48 Class Rules since they are a bit more open and available and with the exception of radio channels, meet your desires.

There was a lot of issues and ill-feelings over our desire to try to modify the Mini40 rules to have clean rules that had no contradictions, and as noted, I really would prefer not to have to go down that road again. Hope you understand our position as it is nothing personal. If you have specific questions about why or how we did what we did, feel free to post and I will answer as best I can.

Feel free to post argumentative issues as well. I think we have addressed most at one time or another, and can research my notes if needed. I sent you, under separate email, a comparison of the Mini40 vs F-48 Rules, and “why” we elected or wanted to change them. Many of your questions can be answered by reviewing that list. If there is enough interest, I can post the list here for more to see and discuss - if anyone is interested.

I have not studied the Mini40 rules, but from the sounds of it, it sounds like you could build one boat that would be legal in both classes. So a Mini40 could be measured in as a F48 (it might require a second rig) or vise versa. So it sounds like there is no good reason to combine the classes since the existing boats can compete against each other under one or the other rule.

I have seen several people do this with IOM’s that they can change the rig and measure in as a US1M. It allows them to compete in any regatta for either class. I know that an ODOM will measure in as a US1M and with a rig change might also measure in as an IOM (not sure on that one…).

Will Gorgen

Will, a mini40 can compete in the Formula 48 class but a Formula 48 tricked out with foils, movable ballast or squarehead or bent back tip rig could not compete in the mini 40 class…I think the Australian mini40 guys should consider seriously whether or not they really want a development class and if they do it would be easy to adopt the F48 rules.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Actually a moveable ballast system can be done without any extra channels using a gyro, or accelorometer. I have been doing some research into this and it is possible but the cost is pretty high. I am not indicating that I ownly want two channels or vice versa I am just bringing up the point that it can be done. when I finally get done with mine I will post some pictures if anyone is interested in building one. I will only be using mine in heavy air.

Ian

I think sailing with a movable ballast system controlled by the skipper is one of the most exciting ,fun things you can do in rc multihull sailing. Lot more challenging than foils but not as fast…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

As the original post did say, and please lets not go down the “canting keel trainer” discussion with this, It’s was just an idea. In Australia we are experimenting with boats that are easy to sail i.e. underslung T-foil rudders, wide and bouyant main hulls, wing masts and getting the weight right. We don’t either want to or have the nessesity to use any other form of foils or moving ballast etc.
Wingmasts are legal as the rules do specify that a mast is measured if it is over 20mm diameter, if the rule for measuring the sails is understood properly square top sails are allowed, in fact any type of sail can be measured under this system.
Movable ballast is only worth while on cat’s as tri’s don’t need it. I will challenge anybody in the states or anywhere else that is, to build a mini40 tri the way we are now(type of boat we use has been explained in other posts)get used to sailing it then go and race against any other r/c sailing boat(two and three meter excluded) and if you sail it right I reckon the mini40 will win. Put all your foilers or whatever else up against it. I think that the boats we sail here in our club will challenge and beat any other boat on the water again two or three meter excluded.
The mini40 rule relates back to the I.Y.R.U because when the rules were first drafted they were the governing body, and there has been no reason to upgrade the rules but in my opinion the French do need to change their thinking about the rules of the class and listen to critizism by those of us who sail the class and take the time to contact them.

Peter, why not adopt theF48 rules since you say you have no need of the extra’s it provides anyway so you would simply be able to not use what you don’t want.
Then we could all sail under the same class as you originally suggested.
Best as I can tell you haven’t a constituion such as we do that prevents us from making any rule changes so you could more easily choose our rules than vice versa…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Doug
I have got an offer for you. Your responds to my previous post suggest that over here we have no need for foilers etc. What I would like to do is offer you the chance to see for yourself the speed of the boat that we now build and sail, so with this in mind if you can find the return airfare for yourself and however many boats that you would like to bring, I will provide food accomodation and transport for you to put your foilers and what ever else at approx. mini40 length that you have against us to see just how SLOW they really are.
It might sound arogant on by part to do this, but Doug’s posts about his foilers etc. have no credentials in my mind. As they haven’t really been proven.
We had a visitor come over to us from the U.K. two years ago. He sailed one of the cats that was then being sailed with us. He finished mid fleet and commented that the boat he sailed was far more respondsive than anything that he had seen in the U.K. That boat has now been made obcelete as the owner of it has built himself a tri, to at least stay competitive.
By the way the boats that we build can, and are put on the water, with 3 rigs ready to sail including radio gear and winch for $350 AUD.
Good cheap fast racing as far as I am concerned. The club championship this year has one heat remaining, and at the moment depending on results is being fought out by three boats. Overall there is only about 29 points seperating first to last.(we use the international low pointscore system).
So come on Doug, are you prepared to take up the challenge?? I think not.
Peter

Peter, I note that you did not answer my previous post regarding changing your rules to match the F48 rules.Why not?
You guys must trully have MAGIC to be able to put together a first rate mini40 with three rigs for $272 US !!! I do mean magic!!Man, Marblehead owners up here would love to know how you could build a boat with a combined hull length approaching 12’(3.6m) for that kind of money and have it be at the top of the class!!!Three rigs! Radio! I want one!
My F3 foiler is very fast(see the video in 5-6mph of wind) but has only been raced locally as far as I know(four are in the hands of customers) and the F48 X3 with retractable foils hasn’t even sailed yet. But I’ll save you a lot of money maybe-: I have a potential customer down there just waiting to see the pictures and video of the X3.
If you’d like to see a foiler sailng in 5 mph of wind ON FOILS just go to:www.microsail.com
One other thing: whether it is my boat or someone elses a well designed retractable foiler will beat a well designed stuck on the water boat in almost any condition. Remember I said this!!!
A question: you say that your boats are the best in the world; why then would you make an offer to someone you don’t have any confidence in to come to Australia instead of financing yourself or someone else to race the French in Europe?? Have any of your people raced outside Australia? You’ve made a MIGHTY big claim yet the French are at the top of this game and apparently you’ve never raced them; is that true?
PS- I might find someone(or do it myself) to buy one of these top of the class $272US mini40’s with three rigs(incl sails) and radio; if I arranged shippng with Bax-Global could that be worked out? How much would a packaging charge be? How much time to get one ready?
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Doug
I have not got the authority on my own to change the rules that govern the class of boat that we sail, however, I will put the idea to the other members of our committee.

The boats can be built for that price. We have one builder down here who was charging $1500, but no-one bought them because they were over priced and slow. He has now stopped building multihull’s and is now building IOM’s and Marbleheads or 10 rater’s.
Anyone who wishes to order one contact, can be made through e-mail to lwsharpie at the clubs website
www.qldrcmultihull.org
I just watched the video of the foiler on the microsail site. If that is sailing in 5mph winds, which equates to about 8kph winds, which is the lower end of the “normal wind range” for us and I’m sorry Doug but it would get beaten by our boats. Whoever was sailing the foiler in the video, needs to learn how to sail from what I saw. If it is a point that foilers are hard to control in those breezes, then why worry about them as they will not do any good racing in multihull fleets judging by the speed of our boats.
The first thing to learn about r/c multihull sailing is that it is not easy. You can’t just throw a boat on the water and expect it to sail fast. It takes hours of sailing and off water fine tuning to get the optimum performance. We spend hours on and off the water developing frictionless sheeting systems, working at improving sail shape and design and testing ideas that then get put forward. Multihull sailing in Australia is highly competitive as we exchange ideas, help each other adapt new ideas to each others boats. We all feel that after racing a course, all boats finishing within 5-10 seconds of each other is what r/c multihull sailing should be about.
Doug you are blowing what I stated out of proportion. I said that if once someone learnt how to sail one of our boats properly, that anyone could put any other boat except a two or three meter, up against it and I reckon that our boats would win. I never stated that we are the best in the world, that was you putting words in my mouth.
The guy from the U.K. that visited us two years ago, told us that he had sailed against the French, and finished towards the front of the fleet. he also stated that the boat that he borrowed when he was here was far more lively that his back home, he was very impressed by the design of the boats, our design were more advanced than what there’s were. We have since spend our entire fleet up considerably since then, to a point where that boat’s design is out dated, and therefore it doesn’t sail with us anymore, but it’s owner still does in a new lastest design boat.
I answered your next question at the top of this post. We believe the cheaper you can keep costs for these craft, the more people you will get interested.
We don’t use much exotic materials in the construction or rigs, as it’s not a required element. It may improve performance marginally, but not cost wise.
Peter
Secretary
Queensland R/C Multihull
Owners Association

Apoligies for a previous post stating that we canput boats on the water with three rigs complete for $350AUD. I have since looked back at production costs and the amount should read $390AUD. Sorry for the mistake. This price does not include packing, shipping or labour. Building these boats is something we do because we enjoy doing it. None of us are interested in this becoming a source of income.
Peter

“Learn to sail huh Peter? Thats good! I’ll remember you said that!
The F3 off the foils is a dog and in marginal condions coming on and off foils can be as well but when its on foils its very fast. I’ve built and sailed rc multihulls for over 40 years and I’ll guarantee you that no 48” multihull can touch the F3 speed ON FOILS!
But we’ll see how the X3 with retractable foils does–you may find out first hand! Of course it has three channels so you may not let it race-thats a good reason to consider matching the F48 rules-then our complicated, expensive, slow machines could at least go for the gold…Aussie Gold! The guy that may buy the X3 would surely like to be able to race such superlative examples of the multihull as you say you have.
About the boat: even at 390AU that is an incredible price; will you sell me(or someone else) one at that price? Then we could race it up here and save you a lot of money at the same time–of course,only after we learn to sail!LOL

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Doug
Tell you what, our lastest development will be available around the end of March. Once your Australian buyer has there X3 let him know the website for the club that I am with, and he can come and sail with us. All three radio channels will be available for him to use and we will conduct our racing in the way we aways do. I will post the results on this forum immediately after I get home. If he is successful and beats us then I will stop promoting our boats as I have been doing. After all no-one would want to buy a boat from here if it can’t beat one of yours would they Doug?
Peter

But Peter: I’m sure I can find someone (or me) to buy one of your top of the line mini40’s at the 390aud price(including radio sails and three rigs); can one be ordered? I’ll sail it then send it to Dick Lemke and Ian Sammis a F48 builder. Then we’ll be able to report on how slow* our boats really are compared to the “cheap,fast” boats you are sailing…
*right…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

That fine as I said lastest development boat will be available at the end of March. The boat itself is beginning is tuning next week and that takes about 6 weeks of tweaking and adjustment to get it right. The new boat hasn’t been sailed yet and won’t be till next week.
But if you want one it can be packed up and posted by the end of april.
Peter

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

I have a potential customer down there just waiting to see the pictures and video of the X3.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Geeeeee - seems there are some here in the USA who are also “WAITING” to see pictures of an F-48 (X3 or D4Z) from Microsail too! [:-banghead]

Ooops ! Did I say that out loud? Shame on me! I know, I know, it will be at least two more years before there is time to devote to building the X3. [:-boring]

Peter, can you pack it in a 55"(1.39m) X 12"(.3m) X 16"(.4m) crate made with 3/4" (19mm)plywood? That way it will be safe to ship Bax-Global. I’ll use those dimensions to get a quote from them but I need your exact address to tell them where to pick it up.E-mail me at: lorsail@webtv.net
The masts for the three rigs would have to be in two pieces ,I suppose. The cost is 390AUD plus packing right? I’ll pay shipping of course.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Dick
Thanks for that post the smile will be on my face for quite some time.
Peter