Dick, there are a number of different comparisons being made with all the prototypes.
With the 24 a new extremely simple canting keel installation is being tested including the physical installation of the keel and the electro mechanical system to move the keel. The lateral resistance needed as the keel cants is also being evaluated on the 24 and the others. If it works well in the 24 it will be used on a 30" proto.
The 24" is also being used to give an idea of cost since it should be the least expensive of the three hulls being tested.
The main areas being tested on all three sizes are the cost, the mechanics, the keel installation,and the lateral resistance system.Rig concepts will also be tested on all three sizes.
The 24 will be tested against other boats with fixed keels near its length as will the 30. The final candidate will probably come from the 30" prototypes or the B32 prototype depending on the results of other tests and data mentioned earlier.
The 30" proto’s will be raced against each other and boats the same length or nearly so with fixed keels.As stated in the first post of this thread 30" is the target LOA reached by concensus. But information will be gathered from canting keel boats below(the 24) and above(B32) this length as well.
Just a heads up for anyone intersted in practical technical details and discussion of CK Trainer prototypes check out the “winch abuse” thread started by Matthew Lingley under “Technology”…
Update: see “CKT Prototype” this section by Matt Lingley
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
The subject of lateral resistance for a canting keel boat has been covered in different topics under “Technology”. It is VERY important that anyone contemplating building a CK Trainer understand the various possibilities.
A new concept has been added to the mix-see the “kFOIL” topic under Technology as this is a simple solution that may have great benefit.
Any boat with a canting keel that cants over about 25 degrees to either side will need some form of extra side force upwind when the keel is canted…
Over 800 posts; 11 pages on the “CBT Trainer”; an update on another possible “revolution” and not a single mention here that the first prototype apparently SANK!!!
It is unfortunate to use that language in describing the leak in Matt’s test canting mechanism. The boat was not rigged or complete just undergoing a routine test.
That his generosity in sharing all the details of his prototype would be met with such an off the wall distortion is unfortunate.
Anyone who wants to see Matthew’s prototype underwater can see the picture under the “leaking boat…” thread.
Again, I find it ironic that after hundreds of posts pushing proprietary ideas and r/c sailing concepts, when an idea actually moves into the real world and problems develop not a single word is posted.
Hey Roy, nice to see you interest in my project, It sailed yesterday. No leaks now. I didn’t use Doug’s system for the keel, I came up with my own an all carbon system with a pretty big weight saving. If it hadn’t leaked I would have been very suprised. Dont tell me everthing you build goes perfectly first time.
Cheers, Matt
Oh, and by the way, it didn’t sink, thats about 2 tablespoons worth of water in there after 10 mins of it being weighted down (more than it will ever be) with a house brick.
Congratulations Matt! Almost two months since this idea was first proposed and you’ve got the first boat sailing! Ya done good!
Can you post some details like fin area , daggerboard area, side to side speed etc?!
<font color=“green”>2 Months = a canting keel boat actually sailing !!!
Nice job Matt</font id=“green”> - maybe (ahem) you could convince someone else to spend time building and getting one of those 6 month or two year old “proposed” ideas on the water.
DANGIT ! There I go again - thinking out loud … What the heck - might just as well finish up my thoughts…
FROM THE <u>“HOW COME”</u> DEPARTMENT …
The guy who seemed to come up with the idea at least a year ago - maybe more, still doesn’t have one sailing - but the “kid” (no offense intended) can manage to do it in just two months?
I’m truly impressed Matt, and offer you my sincere congrats for getting your idea on the water.
Matt,
Congratulations!!!.
You are the MAN!.
DO NOT APOLOGIZE if , your boat turns out to be a DOG!, YOU HAVE DONE IT!!!.
Use a load of freely available FANSTASY to make it a belter, you can download a truck full from this Forum!!.
Think the blighter right, “what you are going to do next will make it all ok”, we can do it too on this side of the pond!!.
Proud of you I am!.
John.
Just a note to mention that the original post containing much of the data regarding the CK Trainer has been edited to add an "Historic Milestones " section. And the first person honored there for all time is Matthew Lingley whose brilliance ,perseverence and desire to test the boundaries has produced the first RC Sailing CK Trainer prototype!
Once again, way to go!
John, Matt, whats your take on the canting mast on the National 12 and Merlin Rocket?
What advantage do you see?On the Merlin its 0-20? either side.
Do see any advantage to adding that facility to a canting keel model?
Dont ask me, dont have much to do with those classes. Too much string for too little speed IMHO.
I got a sail today with the CK boat, see the other thread…
CK Trainer designs as well as “normal” one meter and larger canting keel designs will have to recognize a major fact of life of a high performance rc canting keel boat: the boat has much more power to carry sail upwind than it does downwind!
This is true to a lesser extent on some fixed keel boats-those that have a tendency to dive downwind. But is looking like it will be even more of a problem on a canting keel boat that can carry the same sail area upwind with half the ballast. Dead downwind the canting keel makes no difference to pitch stability and the canting keel boat can wind up with an exagerated tendency to pitchpole.
Solutions may involve antidiving planes ,rudder t-foils, moving weight aft , not sailing dead downwind or various combinations.
Particularly susceptable are very narrow hulls like my two 30" CK Trainers which will be two boat testing shortly. They are 30" LOA with a 4" beam with a 16" 55 degree canting keel using a kFOIL for lateral resistance. Ballast is 1.5lb.'s and overall weight is 3 lbs.; sail area is 481 sq. inches. These boats may be fast upwind but there are almost surely to be problems dead downwind.
More soon…
Gale, not an unexpected issue at all; in fact I have mentioned it before as a concern. On the several canting keel boats I’ve sailed in the past the issue was never a concern but none of them were designed to the level of refinement of the newer boats including the F100.
Since this thread was primarily aimed at those interested in cantng keel boats the subject of potential problems will come up now and then.
The fact that a problem is discussed in no way implies that it is an unsolvable defect in the nature of a CK boat.
It is a problem that will be solved and the discussion of it will be part of the answer.
Also ,it must be pointed out that it is not necessarily a problem with all canting keel boats depending on design - deep fin narrow boats are the most likely to be affected.
Development of a whole new kind of rc sailing and racing will have and has had problems-no big deal; we’ll just solve them like the ones that came before…