As of this date the canting keel trainer will be produced , if at all privately due to my inability to post reliably on this subject(or any other).This prevents any ongoing dialogue to complete a boat that will fit the original proposal I cannot justify any further posts on this subject when so many of mine have been recently removed by a “phantom” or by two out of control moderators. I have three versions of this boat almost complete and this is an unfortunate situation.
I have believed in Chad and his forum from almost day one; I think Chad personally is a first class individual.I undestand that Chad is busy and it is terribly unfortunate that these moderators have taken the opportunity to so grossly violate Chads trust and in so doing make it impossible for this project to proceed as originally planned.
But the moderators Dan Sherman and Wismerhell are the most contemptible individuals to ever be placed in that position. Over the last three weeks I have had seven posts removed from the multihulls section and they have denied doing it(a phantom does it-just mine of course!!!). But just the other day, Sherman publically removed a post because he said it was advetising. When I pointed out that I didn’t produce anything like what was in the post he replied with a quote from me that I MIGHT IN THE FUTURE!!!
I have been the subject of a series of personal attacks and when I respond the topic is locked, the post removed or both. The rules specifically prohibit personal attacks yet both of these “moderators” have specifically allowed a virulent, obnoxiuous, ignorant and grossly uniformed post by the Gale to remain on the PUB.
This kind of moderator abuse is a disgrace and a violation of the trust placed in these guys by Chad.
I propose a co-operative design project that is designing a CLASS as well as a new boat. The idea grows from a suggestion to me the other day for an inexpensive canting keel boat between approximately 24" (610mm) and 30"
(762mm). It should be called:" CK trainer" or something similar to indicate its birthplace on this forum. The idea would be to create a strict one design that could be built by any homebuilder or offered as a kit and that would be licensed to any builder. The basic technical stuff I can run down or you can refer to other areas of the forum for more information. Certain new technology will soon be availble FOR FREE for use on this particular boat which will simplify the use of a canting keel.
Under the cicumstances of out of control moderator abuse of power by Dan Sherman and Wismerhell this project will proceed, if at all privately, with individuals and or companies. I’ts a shame and brought about by two individuals whose conduct is a disgrace to this forum.
The idea is to introduce people to sailing a canting keel boat for less than $400 depending on the ingenious solutions put forward here. This boat would be a project that everybody on this site can contribute to; there are considerations of the class rules , radio etc that can be addressed. Further, this boat eventually would be a living, breathing tribute to this site and the application of technology to rc sailing. All aspects of this Class must be considered from the rules to transportability, complexity,cost, rig etc. So if you think you might be interested in trying something like this please contribute. If you have nothing positive to contribute please do not post.
“RC Sailing’s CK Trainer " ??
UPDATE: 1/21/03
A) Targets for the boat-suggestions based on various input:
-----Loa 30”(.76m)- fairly firm target
-----Beam 4"(.1m)-open target
-----Fin 14"(.355 m)(cl bulb to cl pivot) open target
-----Displ.3.5 lb.'s(1.59kg.)
-----Ballast-two pounds(.9kg)open target
-----Sail Area 500sq.inches(.32 sq. meter)open target
-----Cant angle 55 degrees-firm target; cant speed-around 1-1.5 seconds cl to max cant
B) To design this boat effectively one has to start with the canting mechanism-this will determine beam, sail area, fin length, ballast and therefore displacement.The targets above are what we are trying to achieve but could still vary significantly. This is being looked at hard by myself and Will Gorgen and anyone else that cares to help.The winch ideally should be 200 plus inch oz. and have 270 degrees of travel. This is proving difficult to find inexpensively-so far.
C) requirements of a canting keel design other than note above:
-----1) a canting keel boat with a keel that cants 55 degrees must have another form of lateral resistance to take the place of that lost when the keel is canted.
This can take the form of twin rudders(probably too expensive for this boat, a single daggerboard, a gybing single daggerboard, twin asymetrical daggerboards(too expensive), or wings on the keel bulb(see kFOIL info under “technology”/3/4/04).Each of these options is dicussed on this forum under different headings. I can help anyone figure which of these might work best on a test boat.
-----2) You must have a keel strut pivot mounting system that is 100% leak proof that allows free keel movement through 110 degrees. I can help with this as well…
Historic Milestone(s)
Matt Lingley sails the very first RC Sailing CK Trainer prototype March 3, 2004! Matt originally suggested a need for a class like this and it is fitting and terrific that he was able to do this in just a couple of months!
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I sincerely hope that the moderator abuse problem including arbitrary and selective enforcement of the rules , phantom(w/o notice) removal of posts, allowing personal attacks on one individual ect. can be resolved so that the canting keel trainer can continue as a cooperative venture for the benefit of the whole forum.
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3 channel R/C, no more. Uses standard off the shelf radio gear and servos you can get anywhere. Rig nothing too fancy but fairly modern in style, say round carbon spars (pultruded carbon tube is almost the same cost as ali now, and you can use a smaller dia. tube), fairly large roach on main but not a full on square-top. Rig reefable by a strip of velcro across the main and a removeble mast section + smaller jib. I think it should be a kit boat, home building from plans lessens the chances of it being an effective one design.
I’d say it was quite possible even using a modern peaked up square top main on an unstayed offset pivoting rig only using a 3003 servo modified for 180 degrees for sheeting. Max ballast would be two pounds for a thirty inch boat. I’m in favor of a 30" skinny hull ,main only- reefable.Something like a 3801 as cant winch using Hal Robinson/Will Gorgen’s canting mast winch idea in reverse(see Canting Keel mechanism in Technology).
I’d say it was quite possible even using a modern peaked up square top main on an unstayed offset pivoting rig using a 3003 servo modified for 180 degrees for sheeting. Max ballast would be two pounds for a thirty inch boat. I’m in favor of a 30" skinny hull ,main only- reefable.Something like a 3801 as cant winch using Hal Robinson/Will Gorgen’s canting mast winch idea in reverse(see Canting Keel mechanism in Technology).
well if its under 400 USD…even without TX…I will order one right now…if you need things from Japan (cheaper here sometimes) let me know . for ex. the cheapest i can get for a S3003 servo is about 1500 (not bulk).
Greg, the key to making a 3003 work is the “offset pivoting rig”(like a swing rig but main only) where the mast is stepped ahead of the pivot point of the boom. I’ve been using the same arrangement on 850sq.in. on the microMOTH with no problems so far. The sevos ,modified are available from Radio South for around $25. The rig geometry keeps the loads exceptionally low . Since the rig reefs verticaly there are no changes in the fore and aft CE position when reducing sail which is extremely simple , reliable and has been tested for years now on the Spinnaker 50.Saves customers big money on multiple rigs while allowing a wide sailing range.
Stay tuned regarding materials etc.
The target of $400 will hopefully include something ikethe HiTec Ranger three channel(which I’m not sure is ideal-sails and canting keel on the left stik seems to be the most intuitive way to control both) or inexpensive 4 channel. Saw somw last night right around $110.
One key thing is that this isn’t being conceived of to market thru hobby shops or you could add another $120 to it right off the bat. If it is sold"factory direct" costs can be kept down but promotion costs have to be looked at though word of mouth MMI , Model Yachting and this website might do the trick.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
I would say the hull and deck would need to be cheap - fiberglass in a mold.
I don’t think a reefable rig is really necessary. might be a nice “upgrade”, but offer the base boat with a single set of sails. Walrus sails could probably do the job for around $50 (given what that charge for the Fairwind sails which would probably be about the same sail area).
Carbon tubes for masts and booms is a great idea. You would not need spreaders for a mast this size. You might even be able to do a free standing rig.
I’m not sure you need to limit yourself to the s3003. The Hitec 715 is available with much more torque and travel for about $35. There are plenty of other servos with more torque than the s3003 that are not that expensive. If using one of those would allow for a simpler, cheaper rig, then that may be the way to go. The offset pivoting rig sounds cool, but it may be more hassle than it is worth to save a few bucks on the sail servo.
For the canting keel, you may find some other servos that are higher torque at a lower price than the sail servo. For example the Hitec 805 has 225 oz in of torque and only costs $40 (The s3801 has 150 oz in and costs $55).
For the keel bulb and rudder, you may want to look at off the shelf components. For examle, can you use the victoria keel and rudder? If you design the canting keel mechanism with a keel trunk geometry that matches some current boat, you may be able to but pre-fab parts fairly inexpensively. Based on the last issue of Model Yachting, it sounds like the rudder and keel are subcontracted out by Thunder Tiger (see the interview with the Terry Hsu) and you may be able to get them directly from the subsupplier or from Thunder Tiger.
If you do all that, I think $400 is quite achievable…
It seems to me thathis boat will not only be a trainebut it will be seen by many as a demonsrator of canting keel technology and while I am NOT suddesting usingthe highest performance versin of that technology(CBTF) I am suggesting we keep in mind how this boat will be viewd and that we make sure it is designed to beat boats it’s own length or close there to.It shouldn’t be a boat with a “gimmick”; it should be a boat that uses this technologyto be fast as well as being cost effective. It is not an easy task and will take considerable thought and research…
This headline woud be nice to shoot for someday:" CK Trainer Rocks the RC Sailing World"
So if anybody has the time and can post the length, beam ,draft, sail area, weight and cost of the nearest production boats to 30" loa that would be helpfull.
Will a semi-flat bottom work with canting keel? Although a home-build, take a look at the XL-25 website. I have plans to full scale, and with it’s easy construction, someone could probably turn it into a kit.
70 cm length (or 27.5 inches)
850 gm weight (or 1.87 pounds)
1 meter mast (or 39.3 inches)
.2 sq. meter sail area (or 310 sq. inches)
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A "sweet little thing - unstayed swing rig that is very non-high tech, 2 channel (or 3 for canting keel option), and flat bottom flat sides for an easy build - could it plane?
EDIT: added U.S. conversions to inches and pounds and XL25 photo.
What about sticking to a 1 meter length so you have more ability to show performance gains vs US1M and IOMs? Lots of plans available, lots of rigs and sails to choose from, might even be cheaper!
The victoria is just shy of 31" long. There are a lot of those around and they are pretty quick for their size (I have seen them keep pace with US1Ms in lighter winds). THat would be a good boat to benchmark against speed wise.
Not sure what all the specs are for it, but the class page at amya.net says: 30.7" long, 433 sq in sail area, 4.5 lbs displacement, 42.75" mast height. Cost is quite cheap (the kit sells for $99, and I’d bet that the hottest boats are well under $250 after all the upgrades).
When I get the F100 CKTF model finished I will be looking at making a Norths 600 with the same setup, Why I like the challenge.
Also the Norths 600 is probably the fastest growing class in the world (my opinion of course - to stop any mudslingging) 32 boats have been measured in the last year, and 18 turned up the “nationals” champs just befere christmas. Wide range of developments from the standard looking to the extreme open 60 look with even a cat rig schooner. Grant M with his Wind Warrior design 600 was first. I will try to get some photos. oops of the topic, its so easy to get side tracked!!!
Example boat around this size
Bantock Tactic- Loa 620mm, max beam 190, Draft 220ish, displacement minus all radio gear 1200g ish, sail area no 1 rig around 0.2sqm. Hull injection moulded plastic, foils wood, ali spars. Uses standard servo as an arm winch. I think they were around ?130 new (kit form + ex radio gear), although that was a few years ago. They have a tendancy to fall apart after a time, the plasic works a hell of alot.
but first i am no expert at all i am probably the number one noobie on this forum…just a thought…
was thinking about the sails and mast…then the Laser came into my mind…why not making a system like the Laser…only mainsail…and a carbon tube…no rigging needed.
Thanks all for the ideas questions and research info on other boats in this range-keep 'em coming. I’ve started a notebook to catalog all the information.
Wis- I think an unstayed main only, reefable rig is the way to go-simple and fast especially using a modern planform.
Matt-we already have a class getting going -the F100- that will introduce canting keels to the one meter length. Costs would sky rocket going up to that length compared to 30" and under. Increased ballast would require a larger winch for the keel, for the rig etc.
Dick, a flat bottom would be no problem for a canting keel but it would probably hurt performance compared to a well designed round bottom. ---------
Will, the bearing you must be planning to have on your canting mast(to slide up and down on the lever) set up seems like it might be expensive(see Technology under “Canting Keel Mechanism”);What are your thoughts on keeping it freely moving without play? Thats the basic solution I see for the cantng keel on this boat…
Also needed: any “testimonials” from people that have actually sailed/ raced any of the boats listed here: plusses and minuses…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Also needed: any “testimonials” from people that have actually sailed/ raced any of the boats listed here: plusses and minuses…
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Building three of the XL25. One for son and one for grandson and one for me ! Should be on water by late summer (I hope) Will advise then.
Tactick- Only sailed this boat in over 10 knots, no idea what its like in a light wind as it only sees use in the winter. Upwind its nothing spectacular once its in the groove, very quick to tack as its got a pretty big rudder for its size. The only real gripe is that you can’t sheet in without luffing, the servo wont take it. On a reach its bloody twitchy and with the sail servo not man enough to trim the sails quickly it just ends up overpowering and screwing into the wind at every gust, we normally only sail windward-leward courses for that reason. Offwind the broaches are very impressive if you dont have your wits about you, the nose does tend to go down a bit too much for my likeing in the puffs! The big rudder will keep controll in all but the biggest gusts but it wont surf no matter how much you try.
It must be said that we do thrash these little boats, this is a bunch of dingy/skiff sailors after cheap winter entertainment on a boating lake not 10m away from the sea, I think they have easily been sailed in winds aproching 30 knots. They break frequently, but they weren’t intended for this kind of use. Most are aproching 10 years old, although they only get use fo 3 months in a year.
All in all for the money a nice little boat.
matt is there anyway i could get some infomation on Tactick. this maybe a boat that could be used for beginners
cougar
ps i kinda of like dick sea dragon
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