BAG IOM (A lesser known and very under rated boat

Rcsailing.net General Discussion
1

A lesser known Aussie IOM is the BAG (short for Bill and Gunter I think). It goes really well, and here is a pic taken early today in 30kts with a C rig sailed by Jon Wilson and his mate Chris Lark. I have more details if you are interested. PS How do I show these pics without having to click on the file name?

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Nick Lindsley
Australia 0418 727-727
Intl +61+418-727.727

2

Interesting boat Nick, looks similar to the Stealth. I’d like to hear more about it. Any photos of it out of the water?

3

hey nick
that is a very nice looking boat? and news on it?. maybe more pictures. or who do we contact about it?
like greg. i would like to see it up close
cougar
long live the cup and cris dickson

4

dont forget about the bandit, seems to be a very capable design too
ed

5

The Bandit is a great boat that I would be happy to own.

It’s the blue boat. The other two are the Errica, #75, and a rare Mist, #51.

6

Peter Kempe (the Bandit designer and mnfcr) is a local Brisbane designer and a top bloke as well. Extremely helpful, even if you are sailing another design - as I have in the past! Don’t ask me to rate the merits and performance here. I don’t know, nor would I be qualified to give an accurate opinion. I have seen the Bandit beat the BAG and the BAG beat the Bandit. My criteria is, alas, price. Peter, like most of these designers, is pretty good on the water. Maybe there should be a law against designers sailing their own boats - they are usually too good for the rest of us, and as their ability matches the quality of their products it makes it hard (for me anyway) to judge any of their boats objectively.

Nick Lindsley
Australia 0418 727-727
Intl +61+418-727.727

7

A question to Greg - and maybe Nick…or others

What happens to IOM boat designs after the first one - or dozen hit the water?

Do the line drawings ever become public domain - or are they offered for sale? Are the hulls restricted to being built and sold by the designer? Why would the “Mist” design be so scarce? Do older designs get by-passed by newer “name” builders, because of name alone - and are older boats not given an opportunity to prove their performance? Are there really only 4 or 5 viable IOM designs on the water now?

I guess I am confused by lack of any kind of promotion for older designs if they aren’t the “design du jur” - are they really that far off the pace in performance or are buyers simply following ego and “name” and buying the newest on the water without giving the design that might be a bit older an opportunity to prove itself? Does the feeling … “if it’s more than 2 years old it can’t be any good” … bear weight because of performance - or because of a new, flashy design with a different name? And not to take anything away from Peter and the Climate Epoch, but if someone were to sail one to a win in a large event, would it suddenly and dramatically cause a long line of new buyers?

I guess I have this feeling I can lose just as easily sailing a Bantock “Current” as I could sailing a design of my own - it’s just easier to have an excuse if it’s my own design. [:D][:I]

8

Dick,

I?ll try and answer these questions, but I don?t claim to be any type of expert on the topic.

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> Originally posted by Dick Lemke

A question to Greg - and maybe Nick…or others

What happens to IOM boat designs after the first one - or dozen hit the water?

Do the line drawings ever become public domain - or are they offered for sale? Are the hulls restricted to being built and sold by the designer? Why would the “Mist” design be so scarce? Do older designs get by-passed by newer “name” builders, because of name alone - and are older boats not given an opportunity to prove their performance? Are there really only 4 or 5 viable IOM designs on the water now?

<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”> Many keep on racing and I don?t know of a single IOM that has not re-sold when put up for sale here in the states, no matter how old. As far as I know,designs rarely become available for public use. I gather there are some boats that are licensed to others to build, like many of the Firebrace designs and the TS2. There are 2 builders of Firebrace Errica that I know of right now.
Speak of the Errica, I believe that this is at least a five year old design that is still proving itself as a top boat. The red one in the photo above is one of the originals, sailed by Charlie Rutan, and it is a very hard boat to beat! It is known to be that fastest boat at our club.

Every name boat you hear of is an individual design. In other words the Red Wine, Two Dogs, Three Dogs, Eurica, Errica, Mist, Fog, and Haze are all completely different boats, though have evolved from each other, from Firebrace. Every one of these designs is capable of winning major regattas, though it seems that the Errica is a better all around performer.
My Mist is rare do to one reason (IMHO), because it turns skippers off because of the narrow transom. I feel that this Mist was maybe the fastest boat at the Nationals!
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>

I guess I am confused by lack of any kind of promotion for older designs if they aren’t the “design du jur” - are they really that far off the pace in performance or are buyers simply following ego and “name” and buying the newest on the water without giving the design that might be a bit older an opportunity to prove itself? Does the feeling … “if it’s more than 2 years old it can’t be any good” … bear weight because of performance - or because of a new, flashy design with a different name? And not to take anything away from Peter and the Climate Epoch, but if someone were to sail one to a win in a large event, would it suddenly and dramatically cause a long line of new buyers?

<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”> Errica and TS2, among others, are many years old and they still are hyped quite a bit. I do see the TS2 as slipping as newer designs become more efficient to sail. The predecessors to the very popular Cockatoo are the OKCA and the Rage. Both these older designs are not near as good as the Cockatoo, so there is an obvious design advantage with the newer Cockatoo.
As far as the Epoch goes, we need to understand one thing. It was not designed to be an IOM. It seems as if Peter may be adapting it to meet class rules, but, again IMHO, it can not compete with the majority of IOMs out there. I would bet that if the boat were handed to Bantock at the start of the Nationals, he would have not even been in the top 20. If you gave it to him a month ahead of time and he adapted his technology, i.e. fins, rig, sails, and electrical, he might be in the top twenty. <blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>

I guess I have this feeling I can lose just as easily sailing a Bantock “Current” as I could sailing a design of my own - it’s just easier to have an excuse if it’s my own design. [:D][:I]

<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”> I don?t think so Dick. Marko Magic is an excellent sailor and it?s taken several years for his own designs to be able to finish in the top five. I saw his latest design and it looks great. Funny, when he showed it to some of us at the Nationals, even though it was just the hull and deck, unpainted, many of us wanted to order one right there, me included. He declined.

9

Thanks Greg - a very good and detailed answer. Perhaps, I should have gone one more step, and perhaps asked why (if known) the US1Meter guys seem (“seem”) to be more open about sharing boat designs compared to the IOM?

Could it be the IOM designer might have issues if a boat is NOT home-built to his lines? What greater accolades than to be the envy and the base from which to be copied. You know, the old saw about the “sincerest form of flattery”?

I am just coming off a recent series of email correspondence (not yet closed) about the sharing of layup and cloth weights. On a different forum, I happened to post that the my MultiONE had a layup of 2 layers of 4 oz. glass with epoxy resin. One fellow who is a builder reacted that my boat was grossly overweight. Further saying how light his were and asking why would I overbuild. Of course, in due time, I eventually asked what weight of fabric and how many layers he used to get a hull stronger, yet lighter than mine.

Suddenly I was accused of calling him a liar, only because I thought if he furnished such info I could at least relate - or even try it. Seems like I had asked for the PIN numbers to his bank account.

My reason for recounting this communication, and possible mis-understanding, is that it is the first time that such a “security” issue has come home to me - and hopefully, it isn’t the same thing keeping new ideas and designs from flowing out of the IOM Class to potential new builders/owners/members.

10

i dont know if the IOM guys are more secretive, but i find that the idea of sharing information is a person by person thing. i will talk to anybody. and most of you have already found that out( sorry) i sail IOM. and if i can help people i will. my drawings are all on paper and being converted to dwg. so if anybody wants a IOM then can have one. but the magazine all carry them. i have only found 4 us 1 meters. but i can get my hand on atleats 5 sets of IOM drawing.
dick
the guy who accused you of calling him a liar. dont let it bother you. i seem to get called that alot. if i find any secrets i pass it along. if we cant help . why do we post? why do we sail? and if we dont help each other. how do we get better?
i for one would like to see the drawing of a ts2. maybe i could improve it. or destroy it. but i never build a boat the same way
cougar
long live the cup and cris dickson

11

Dick,

Another thing to keep in mind is that most of the “big name” IOMs are molded (at least the hull and often the deck as well). Since the “design details” exist only in the form of the mold, there may not be “plans” that can be shared. I’m not used how the top builders come up with their desings. Many, but probably not all, use sophisticated CAD software. Others may simply shape their hulls by hand and eye. Either way, they may not end up with “shadow frame plans” anywhere along the way.

So it may not be the case that they are being secretive, but rather that they do not have the plans to sell…

  • Will

Will Gorgen

12

In virtually all cases, big boats or small, the plans to fast, current boats are proprietary to their designer (yes, there are always exceptions) and the US1M plans available are generally for older, slower boats. Bob Sterne, for example, is not making plans of the Venom (the consistent US1M Nationals winner for the last five years) available.

13

Roy -
it just seems the (perceived) high cost to purchase, and the backlog of orders could be addressed by a release of more current line drawings - with included royalties for the designer - for those wishing to build.

In a round about way, you really do have to pay to be fast in this “home built” type of class, … exceptions and breakthroughs by some individuals acknowledged. I just think it would be great to see some designers offer the lines of their current designs. But then, I suppose those costs would be considered by some to be excessive too.

14

When are we ever going to see side by side testing of different models with skipper changing and some published figures? Can’t be too hard. To make it interesting we could take bets in advance. My bet is there won’t be much difference at all. Perhaps we could metaphorically bet on the percentage difference rather than an absolute value which would not mean that much.

Nick Lindsley
Australia 0418 727-727
Intl +61+418-727.727

15

Nick,

There are so many variables in what makes a boat fast, that it really is virtually impossible to do “side by side testing” to see which boat is best. For example, some boats are optimized for light winds while other boats are optimized for heavier winds, so you would need to conduct the testing is a variety of wind ranges to get a good feel for it. As another example, some boats are optimized for upwind sailing while others excel downwind. some boats tack smoother while others are better in a straight line. Some boats deal better with the waves but might be a bit off the pace of a boat that excels in smooth water. The list goes on and on.

but even if you could test all those variables, just swapping transmitters is not going to give you the whole story. Obviously a big factor is the sail tuning and setup. If someone hands you the transmitter for the fastest boat on the pond with sails that are turned inside out because he does not know how to adjust his rig, what is the point? So now you would need to have a common rig with common sails from a common sailmaker for both boats and the same guy tuning each set to keep that variable even.

And at the end of the day what will you have learned? Design X is fastest in 5 to 7 mph upwind straightline flat water while Design Y is a better tacker in 8 to 12 mph with 3" waves and Design Z beats both of them downwind when the wind is above 15 mph. What do you do with that information? Which design do you buy?

And, oh by the way, doesn’t that testing sound an aweful lot like a regatta?

  • Will

Will Gorgen

16

You’re right. I suppose it is just my curiousity. I look at 4 stroke, MotoGP bikes of 1000cc. Some have 3 cyls, and weight advantages, 4 inline, V4, V5 and even, it is rumoured, a Honda V6 and V3 on the bench. Different tyres, different surfaces, different levels of driver talent, and even the apparent wind is a variable especially at 340kph (say 220mph). etc on the variables

But I still look at the stats. Top speed thru a trap, corner times between measured points and so on. I think the accumulation of stats that gives them (stats) more value each time.

I come from an aviation background and maybe there is a different culture about accumualtion of stats.

Nick Lindsley
Australia 0418 727-727
Intl +61+418-727.727

17

Using your MotoGP bike example, how do you say which is the best?

Suppose Bike X has the best time through the traps, Bike Y has a faster time through a slolom course, Bike Z has the highest top speed.

You would probably select bike Z if it was a high speed oval course where top end speed was key, Bike X if it was a short oval course than required a lot of acceleration, and bike Y for a road course where maneuverability was needed.

The same is true of boats. One design may be better for light wind. Another for heavy wind, another for waves, etc. How do you test all of those aspect?

In bikes you have several different courses that you put the bikes on (traps, corner times, etc). No one measure will do it. And even the test you do run leave out some crucial info. For example what is the fuel economy. If you have to make an extra pit stop because your fuel consumption is too high, then you will most likely loose the race. What about braking. Races can be won or lost based on the ability of the bike to maintain higher speed and then brake hard going into a hairpin turn.

Same is true with boats. You cannot just measure their straightline beating performance to say which design is the best. You must measure their tacking ability, downwind speed, etc. And you need to measure it for a variety of wind speeds. Lots of stats…

Now back to your bike example: if you had two bikes that were the same model, motor, etc except that one bike was stock and the other had spent 6 months on the dyno tuning the timing to get 20 ft lbs more torque and 30 more horsepower, are those two bikes going to have the same trap times? No.

So if you take two boats where one has had the sails tuned by a world champion and the other was fairly sloppy, is that going to be a fiar comparison? No.

With Bikes and aviation, you can measure the performance of the vehicle in a very controlled environment. It is much more difficult to control the environment for evaluating sailboats. You cannot control the wind or the waves. The best you can hope for is to test all the boats on the same day so that the conditions are equal for everyone. but being able to compare those stats with testing done on a different day at a different location is very difficult…

Anyway, I think you gt it…

Go ahead and swap transmitters with your mates next time you are at the pond. Make sure to give them a chance to re-tune your sails, though. You may find out which boat is faster that day. But I bet the next time you try it under different conditions you will get a different ranking…

  • Will

Will Gorgen

18

Will Gorgen said “…able to compare those stats with testing done on a different day at a different location is very difficult…”. Point taken. I guess I would just like to see many tests to distinguish the reality from the rumour. I’m not sure my analogy falls down (ie MotoGP 4 strokes 1000cc) completely. They do, of course have test drivers who measure all sorts of combinations in all sorts of conditions. They must get something out of it.

Nick Lindsley
Australia 0418 727-727
Intl +61+418-727.727

19

Will Gorgen said “Using your MotoGP bike example, how do you say which is the best?” You don’t and there isn’t. There just is. For example “Design X is fastest in 5 to 7 mph upwind straightline flat water while Design Y is a better tacker in 8 to 12 mph with 3” waves and Design Z beats both of them downwind when the wind is above 15 mph". And so on.

Nick Lindsley
Australia 0418 727-727
Intl +61+418-727.727

20

Nick -

just for “giggles and grins” - sometime if you get the chance, take two boats - great if both are same class, but more of a challenge if different classes - and insert the same crystal in both boat receivers. [:D]

Start them from shore (or wade out a bit) and both on the same tacks. See if you can sail both of them around a triangular course. Provided lots of laughs the other evening, but also had a unique experience when both were the same boats. Easy to see/test against each other and see what tuning changes influence sailing characteristics. It eliminates the different set of thumbs on the Tx, and also shows (sometimes quickly) pointing, sail trim, upwind/downwind speeds, etc. Keep enough room between them when you let go to compensate for pointing capabilities and wind interference from windward boat… or start one, then a few seconds later start the other. [:-banghead]

If this doesn’t prove to be a challenge (or educational) use two boats of different speeds.

Just a humorous way we spent a couple of hours the other night in light air. Just happened I had an extra crystal of same frequency to swap out. [:-crazy]