All posts will be checked by moderators before they go up in this area for the next 7 days. Please guys, just chill out a bit! Post as normal, but dont expect the posts to come up straight away. Just try to remember what this is all about…
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
good idea
i like it
cougar
long live the cup
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Matthew Lingley
All posts will be checked by moderators before they go up in this area for the next 7 days. Please guys, just chill out a bit! Post as normal, but dont expect the posts to come up straight away. Just try to remember what this is all about…
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Was over last week - no ???
Yup, but if the slagging starts again it will go back on.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
A week or so ago Dick Lemke asked for an opinion of my F3 Foiler Trimaran kit that I purchased from Doug Lord’s microSAIL. Having been away from a computer lately, this is first chance to reply. I could probably write a small book about my impressions and experiences with this boat, but maybe Dick and any others interested might make do with this collection of comments listed below.
The F3 is expensive, yes. But, you are getting a lot of boat. The shipping crate is about big as a typical coffin and takes two guys to carry it in off the truck. The kit parts and pieces spread out on the floor could fill a small room. Much later, once you have put it all together, you have a boat with a seven-foot beam and that stands as tall as you do.
All hulls, spars and like parts are Carbon Fiber or something like it. No wood, FG or anything easy-to-work-with is involved. A large and impressive package of hardware is included with the kit.
The instruction “book” Doug provides is a production it itself. I reminded myself that Doug insisted that only if I think of myself as an expert builder, should I tackle assembly of an F3. Considering myself a “junior” expert builder and having in the past myself put together a booklet of instructions on how to assemble a S/B O-D, I was able to follow along with what Doug had provided as instructions. There are over thirty pages typewritten and having a bunch of illustrations. A couple large folded-up drawings are included. Sure, the instructions are not all final and polished-up; but they are what you might expect with the first of a limited quantity production item. It’s obvious that Doug, like myself, did not spend any too much time taking classes in art or drawing. Throughout the F3’s construction Doug or I would talk on the phone. He was always available with good advice and always friendly about everything.
Absolutely critical to the proper assembly of an F3 are three jigs you need to put together that will insure things that need to lineup do lineup. One jig is there to hold the main hull perfectly upright and on its waterline. This is done by the jig securely “clamping” the very bow and very stern. Another jig consists of a board six foot long having four holes in it that is used in the assembly of the trimaran’s crossarm. The third jig is one that is used to attach the foils to the fins perfectly inline, perfectly perpendicular, and at a perfect two-and-one-half degrees of up angle. Anybody who can make these jigs without having access to a table-saw, drill-press, bench disc-sander and table scroll-saw deserves the rank of “Senior-Expert” Kit Builder!
The table scroll-saw, the bench disc-sander, a Dremel tool with carbide cutting wheels, breathing mask and eye protection are needed when shaping the many CF parts and pieces. Care and patience are also necessary. Only West System epoxies are strong and compatible enough to be used for filling hull seams and attaching parts.
The most memorable and exacting moments in F3 kit-building occur when it’s time to position the three hulls to the crossbar. Something really flat and level, like a pool table, will do! In addition you need a carpenter’s right-angle (a big one), a bubble-level and a tape-measure. Simultaneously you need to lineup three hulls on their waterlines (The two amas have a design waterline that differs from the main hull.); lineup perfectly parallel the three hulls fore-and-aft (One degree off and forgetaboatit!); and then you need lineup the fins, foils and rudder the way they’re supposed to be lined-up. Nothing to it. I advise using little dabs of five-minute epoxy to tack things together. I advise ignoring the boat for a day while temporarily tacked together, because the next day, and the next day you will wind up picking away the dabs and trying again and trying again. This whole business is a real exercise in three dimensions! Keep in mind that if any component is off a degree or two, this thing does not work. Making corrections after parts are secured with serious, reinforced epoxy ain’t easy.
When it comes to sailing the F3, the way I see it, special conditions are required. First item is to have available is a crash boat. The F3 is a multihull. Multihulls do not have a keel. Multihulls have been known to turn turtle. An upside-down multihull with its rudder in the air waving to the crowd comes to a grinding halt way offshore when its mast tip gets into water less than six or seven feet deep. Another consideration I have is that the F3 needs to be sailed from a beach. Sure, the F3 can be launched from a dock or hard wall if you are real careful with the fragile, protruding foils. But, stopping and retrieving the F3 is another story! Visualize yourself belly down on a dock that’s covered with goosecrap while you have one hand grabbing on to a boat having the beam the same as a Cadillac. How do you get back up? Another consideration, and Doug alluded to it recently, is that the F3 is a non-performer in light wind. Yes, agreed. Three hulls, three foils, three fins and two flap-actuating wands are a bunch of drag. By towing my F3 behind a motorized peopleboat and having a speed indicating GPS on board I discovered that the F3 needs to be going at five MPH in order to get up on the foils. And, Wow! When up on foils, no more drag – It scoots right along. In other words: A nice, steady ten to fifteen knots of wind make for F3 sailing conditions. On only a few occasions have I been successful getting together with the right conditions of rescue boat, launching site and wind. It is fun gybing from reach to reach and trying to hold it up on foils by trimming sail or bearing off. Noway can I get it to stay up on foils when close on the wind. My tacking is up to about a maybe forty-percent of the time success rate – Going head to wind plus all that drag, what would you expect?
One more thing… A couple/few times in past years, when out sailing a R/C boat, I’ve been approached by a well-intended former peopleboat sailor that would tell me that he would like to get one of our boats and use it to teach the grandkid how to sail. He would then tell me that his handyman son-in-law, who can get in eighteen holes of golf on the same day he painted the dining room, should have no problem putting a kit together. When this happens I usually refer him to a RC Laser or a local used boat up for sail. Or, maybe I might be tempted next time this happens to refer him to microSAIL. <grin>
For those who might want a CD-R chock full of photos showing my F3’s construction, here’s what we will do… Send me via real mailmail one of those plastic CD jewel-box cases and a self-addressed return envelope having the right amount of postage stamps in place. When at home, or if out of town and when I get back home, I will make a copy of the photo CD and send it to you. The address: 207 Briarwood Pass, Oak Brook, IL 60523
Rich Matt
Thanks a lot for this VERY interesting and honest post…very enjoyable.
Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
Hi Rich -
I concur with Wis and his comments about a piece of factual and informative writing - often lacking in previous posts about the F3.
It is interesting, and after several rounds of discussion (argument/personal attacks) with/on Doug, I picked up points in your post, to which I have referenced in past posts - most of which were explained away - or never even addressed. They concur with my original thoughts and feelings regarding the entire concept of the F3 and the post goes a long way toward confirming my thoughts. Suffice to say that reiterating them may look/sound like sour grapes - or baiting - so will simply let the post stand as it is - a well written post that should give anyone interested in an F3 pause to consider.
Will be happy to discuss my views and thoughts off-line via private email. No intention to start a riot here.
Thanks Rich - and do wish to correspond with you about a midwest (Chicago ??) based open regatta - at your convenience, as it can’t be pulled together for this year. (I don’t think)
The F3 kits available for about the last two years -based on suggestions by Rich Matt-require no jigs or building–all parts are cut and critical parts such as foils are pre-assembled. Cosmetic work is complete–only assembly, radio installation and rigging is required.
The most important operation left to complete is the foil /fin installation and rudder t-foil installation(foils are allready assembled to the vertical fins and rudder); a 5’ straight edge and large(2’ X 18") square is all that is required.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
If this is so, why do you need to be “an expert” model builder to complete (or attempt to complete) a F3 bought from Microsail?
Peter
Even though the present kit is far simpler to complete(and 20% more expensive) than the first two kits were critical attention to detail is required in the installation and set-up of the foil assemblies.
This boat is available ready to sail as well.
edt: add ready to sail
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
So anyone that can read words on a diagram, a tape measure and understand what is meant by perpendicular can put an F3 together.
Peter
If they can do it expertly…(precisely)
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Doug Lord has done well by now making the F3 kit more builder-friendly. It has been over two years since I put together my F3. It’s now and here I learn that the kit buyer no longer needs to do some of the really difficult procedures like building the jigs and cutting into shape some of the CF parts. Way to go, Doug!
One guy, an experienced peopleboat sailor, seeing my F3 on the water had asked me something like, “Who’s the rocket scientist that dreamt up that thing?” Well, now I’m thinking that the same degree of ingenuity is involved with improvements to the kit as well.
A final note: Noway would I enter my F3 in a regatta. Too much work and $$ tied-up. But, I would travel far and buy a ticket just to watch a bunch of F3’s compete on a twice-around, windward-leeward course. If it were a windy day, it would be much more fun than watching a NASCAR race!
Rich Matt
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>[i] If it were a windy day, it would be much more fun than watching a NASCAR race!
Rich Matt
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Sorry Rich, but this is intriguing me…does that mean that the F3 is a “dog” in light winds due to the drag the foils produce?
Again thanks for sharing.
Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
Wis, each main foil,one on each side of the boat forward, has a FLAP that is connected to a “WAND”. The wand is essentially a straight or curved stick that drags in the water and senses the water level. In light air the wand is forced back which forces the FLAP down into the take off position.In conditions too light for takeoff the flap drag is enormous making the boats performance very poor.
As the wind increases the wand is pulled forward by shockcord as the boat rises keeping the boat at a preset altitude. The wands on each side are not connected and are amazingly sensitive acting not only to maintain altitude but maintaining stability as well.
If you know that conditions will remain light you can:
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Doug,
thanks for the infos…so if I understand; you need at least 7-8mph to “fly”? Is that right?
Now as for the “retract-able system”…will this not add some weight?..what is your prediction of your X3 weight?..herewith I mean in the water…ready to sail!!
Thanks
Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
One thig I want to emphasize is the simply extraordinary speed of the F3: it will take your breath away. I’ve had the boat on foils in 5-6mph of wind all the way to 22mph(with reefed rig). Sailing here against a 4’ catamaran belonging to Joe Duval the F3 literally sailed a circle around that boat-with speed at least double.
Watching F3’s race would be like NASCAR, in my opinion, because of the extraordinary speed making crossing judgement difficult to say the least-and if there was a collision it would be spectacular with lots of damage…
edt: sp;add speed
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
and you are sure that there is no capsizing???!!
Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
Any multihull can capsize but the chances of capsize/ pitchpole with a properly set up foiler are far,far less than with a conventional multihull. But sail area has to be managed for the conditions as with any other boat.(The F3 rig is reefable and can also carry a manually attached spinnaker)
In two years of sailing F3’s including months of two boat testing in wind from 3 to over twenty I never capsized or pitchpoled; neither did the guys sailing the other boat. Dr. Bradfields larger Flyer ? pitchpoled once in waves when one of his foils(NOT F3 foils!) broke.
There has been only one capsize of an F3 THAT I KNOW ABOUT in 5 years and that was during set up testing.
Because the foils develop their own stability in every condition the opportunity for capsize/pitchpole is drastically reduced but not 100% eliminated.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Rich Matt
A final note: Noway would I enter my F3 in a regatta. Too much work and $$ tied-up. But, I would travel far and buy a ticket just to watch a bunch of F3’s compete on a twice-around, windward-leeward course. <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Rich - therein lies the problem with the continuous posts from the manurafacturer and which seem to contradict “fact” - that being that for all the money and hard work involved, the boat can’t/won’t be raced. It seems to be a “gee whiz” factor type of boat!
To use your example, of wanting to watch a bunch of F3 boats competing - unfortunately that is also a P.R. problem for MicroSail to work on … that “bunch” today would be as follows:
I guess I would just be happy to see “any” multihull activity to allow others to see the boats and their impressive speeds - foils or not ! Continued discussion and promises afford no one an opportunity to see, touch, feel, or smell a multihull. Sure a few are coming along in construction and hopefully 2005 will result in a possible Nationals Regatta being considered, but seeing a “batch” of F3 foilers seems to be a long way off if one is to base their appearance on past efforts and numbers being sold!
This is the problem for a new beginner … 1. foils improve stability - especially for beginner. 2. Foils are faster in certain wind conditions. 3. People can build foils based on provided information. 4. In order to build, as you have indicated, a beginner is probably NOT going to be able to have a successful first build on his own. 5. Manufacturer advises foil builds are NOT for beginners. 6. Foil systems, prebuilt are not available. 7. go back to Number 1 and start all over again!
I am very pleased you were able to make yours work, but am really disappointed that we spend so much time talking about foils - and there are only a few boats actually sold and able to sail! Continued posts make it seem like these are off-the-shelf boats, but are very expensive as admitted by the manufacturer.
I guess in the end - I am very happy that you are satified. I am disappointed that issues with other foilers remain unresolved, and they don’t show up to race or even sail as demos at other large venues (Mystic - Texas, San Diego, Florida, etc.) even though invited. How difficult would it have been to simply drive down, or find someone to demo sail it at a local state race? Does Microsail really want to sell these boats? What kind of multihull promotion is that?
And Finally, I am tired of seeing the foiler being promoted as a beginners boat when costs, difficulty in construction and lack of competition all are working in conflict with the message being brought forward.
A “beginners” boat will be inexpensive, easy to build and easy to sail. I guess 1 out of 3 ain’t bad in some people’s minds!