12 metres in general

Other The Local Pub
141

Great photos and thanks for sharing.

I do have a question for those who might know…

In the fist photo of Steak (from the side) sailing, she seems to sit high on her lines with more overhang than I would have guessed, especially in the bow. Also in marina photos, she sits higher than KA 5 by quite a bit - both waterline and gunwales.

Have they stripped her of much hardware so she is now lighter, - or was she always a “taller boat” above the waterline than KA 5? (given she is number 14 in the series?) Maybe she is the same as when in her heyday of racing, but for some reason seems to look a bit odd in the photos. Could always just be me too. I acknowledge that.

Thanks for any info or comments.

142

Dick

I think the freeboard difference is largely due to the fact that Australia was built to sail in the light Newport conditions and Steak was built for Fremantle’s big wind and waves.

Having said that, I too thought Steak was floating a little high and its possible she had some internal ballast removed.

If i remember correctly, after the 87 cup races the 12 metre worlds were held in Sardinia in lighter conditions and Steak & kidney competed. I guess its possible she was lightened up a bit to make her competitive in those conditions.

Its diffiult to get to the bottom of any of these things though as these boats are getting toward 20 years old and have generally had a few differnet owners!

Troy

143

If she was lightened for Sardinia, there would have been a trade-off somewhere else under the 12 meter rule. I too think she looks to be floating high - but with no requirement to rate under the rule in her current situation, who knows what could have been done.

I could be interested - but our lakes here in Colorado are a little small. Cougar has a little more room up there in Ontario. How about we get a syndicate together, in the interests of preserving a piece of history. I recently sold my family sailboat in New Zealand so I’m cashed up right now. My contribution should just about cover the cost of the spinnaker pole.

144

I’ll kick the can for the steering wheels… does that mean I get to be helmsman???

145

Count me in for a winch (handle).

NL

146

Ho Hum Coug, there finally finished, waffelling. We know the greatness of it all was in the fact of winning after 132 years of ownership by one country. Bertrand didn’t think he had to prove something, again. I can tell you it is not the same game once that cup was won after that length of time with the NYYC. So who were the smart ones in not winning the cup in 87’?

This is what spurred us on, not to just race but to beat the Yanks. Had not Lexcen and Bondy not had that chance meeting with that angry American off the ‘Valiant’, all those years ago. It would never have happened.

Muzza, I really liked that story from the Boston Globe, it had me in stitches., Why let the facts get in the way of a good story. I always thought it was the NYYC and America who lost the cup. But no according to the Globe ,it was Newport!!!.

I certainly know that Newport did feel that way when all their profit went to Western Australia. But Gee , thats life!

We can talk till the ‘cows come home’ about Freedom and all the others but the fact remains Australia did it what no others could. And reading the story about how upset Dennis and his designer were after finding out that the grandfather clause couldn’t be used for Freedom was a classic.

Makes a good story Coug?

Steve

147

So where are all the America’s cup boats now. Tucked up in Europe somewhere? Fat lot of good thats going to do! So you can CAB talk about ‘till the cows come home’ but the fact remains IT AIN’T THE SAME ANYMORE since 83’. And So CAD was going to fix it all ? One of the major worries was that that nobody seemed to take the early research of Lexcen’s and do anything with it.

Now this model R/C version is here and it gives promise to how good this original technology really was/ is.

Steve

148

I know Canada 1 and true north are down south being used as tour boats. you do a week of training and then race on the weekend. as for the american boats. no clue. i do know that if it was I. I would take liberty. am make like a tree. that floating log . should be cut up. dont know much about the story in boston. but i do know , new york was close to not racing in the finals. all over what was surposed to be an illeagle keel. If you ask me, and most dont. If victory 83, azzura, canada 1. france 3, and all the rest did not have a problem. why should the yanks have one. they had there chance to protest. and they did not. then they screwed up with freedom. you cannot seperate the 2. in 83 the nyyc made alot of mistakes. and then tried to blame it on one man.
cougar
still i dont think the “wings” were what made it fast. i think the whole keel was just a modern day fin and bulb

149

muzza
thanks for the article. i just read it. and i liked it. would have loved to have seen it. freedom coming in second. makes man wonder HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
freedom and a2 would have been a great race. but the fat man was there
btw. just how many cup did he win?
cougar

150

Dennis Connor was onboard Courageous in '74, then skippered the winning boats in 1980 (Freedom) and '87 (Stars and Stripes). Then there was the catamaran in '88 - so that makes four. On top of that he’s participated in '83, '92, '95 and 2000 a skipper. In 2003 he ran the S&S campaign but was not on board (I think from memory). So I guess that makes 9 campaigns so far.

151

I am sorry but i cannot see what people think is so great about dennis conner. he lost the cup, then won it, then lost it agian. this is a guy who just cant sail right. if he had had freedom in 83 he would not have lost it. and he made the decision
cougar

152

Interesting if one looks only at the winners -

Charles Barr - 3 times in the 1890’s-1900’s
Harold Vanderbilt - 3 times in mid 1930’s
Dennis Conner - 3 times mid 1980’s
Russell Coutts - 3 times early 2000 (and 1995)

There are a few others at two wins.

153

thanks dick
never knew about charlie Barr. I knew about vanderbuilt. makes me thankfull for people to post on this. pass on the information on the americas cup. EVEN i dont know ever thing
cougar

154

Cougar -

It’s downright amazing (and sometimes scary) to find stuff like this on/in my computer files. :scared:

Acknowledgement: I have no frickin’ idea why or where I came by that list. It was just out there. I don’t even remember using it for anything in the past.

Perhaps just back-up for arguments in the “pub” - you know, kind of a trivia thing. :graduate:

155

Hi Coug,

If you are ever passing this way (Colorado), come by and check out my collection of Americas Cup books. Perhaps my favorite is Lawson’s History of the Americas Cup (published in 1902) which covers the first 50 years. I picked it up in London about 15 years ago for MUCH less than it is worth. At the time the book was written, Charlie Barr had won two of his three AC regattas.

Charlie Barr was of course a professional, and a Scotsman. He became a naturalized US citizen in 1899 or thereabouts. I hope he didn’t have to go through the “Blackheart” campaign directed by some NZers at Coutts, Butterworth and co when they moved over to Alinghi! Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.

While I don’t claim to be any great fan of DC, I do have respect for his achievements. Here’s a short list picked up from the web.

America’s Cup history

Won: 4 (1974, '80, '87, '88).

Lost: 2 (1983, '95).

Other Sailing Victories

Star Worlds: 2 (1971, '77)

Southern Ocean Racing Conferences: 4

Congressional Cups: 2

Etchells Worlds: 2 (still ranked No. 1 internationally).

Other Notable Achievements

Bronze medal, 1976 Olympics (Tempest class).

Two Whitbread Round the World races

Held Trans-Atlantic and Newport-to-Ensenada elapsed-time records.

Twice a member of the U.S. Admiral’s Cup team.

Of those, I’d particulary rate the Star Worlds, Etchells Worlds and Olympic medal. These are one design classes and highly competitive. You don’t succeed in these classes without skill, talent, preparation and hard work.

Happy New Year to all.

156

Coug, I for one admire this Dennis Conner. In my book he is one of the very best skipper in the world today. Apart from his weight problem this man is the number 1 as a sailor. Yes he looses and he wins but Coug he is still there. and he is still considered in more than one class of boat the best and he has got my vote.

157

Dennis Connor is a hero to me for the simple reason that he had a damn slow boat and STILL managed to win 3 races against a vastly superior boat. I would challange ANY skipper to attempt that feat. Cup this, Cup that… whatever whomever has it… honestly… to me… losing the cup was the best thing that could have happened. If Dennis HAD pulled it off… I just don’t think that the interest would be there now. Does anyone honestly think that the number of syndicates out there today would be as many had the cup remained bolted down?

I really don’t care who has it, I just enjoy the individual races.

158

I agree Larry. As a New Zealander, I’ve said that losing the Cup last time round would be good for both the Cup and NZ. If it had stayed downunder, my view is that European interest would have stagnated - as US interest already had done between 2000 and 2003. The trick will be for NZ to win it back (this time or next) and then retain that new European interest for another defence or two.

To many of my countrymen I may as well have been speaking heresy!

159

I agree Muzza

The best thing that ever happened to the Cup was Australia winning in 83. It was like a breath of fresh air. When the SDYC won the Cup back the American public were by and large indifferent to the whole event Then when NZ won it there was massive public support as well as different venues, different audiences, different sponsors. These all make for a healthier competition. Going to Europe can only be a good thing.

160

Old 12’s never really go away - they just end up looking sad - check this thread at Sailing Anarachy

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29023&hl=