My irritation? I don’t think so. Canada 1 did us proud. Never felt better. I felt the Aussies were like cousin. So in fact when a2 won the cup. We did too (sort off). Never felt that the Americas cup should be held one CLUB. But by one country. You can cheer the boat. Be proud of the team. What New Zealand did was IMHO the right thing. Get the country behind you.
I heard when a2 was winning the prime Minster called for national holiday. And that anyboss who fired an employee. Should be called a bum. This here was I think the essence of the Americas cup.
Calling a catamaran A playstation. I don’t know. All I know was that race was a joke. And should never have happened
Cougar
Hmmmm - back when another person was still posting on this site, I thought you were in agreement with him (and others) about skippers leaving their home countries to sail for a different country as a “hired gun”?
Of course, now that the boats seem to have gone with “Corporate Sponsors” it is hard to keep them identified with a specific country.
BMW/Oracle as an example - Germany (BMW) or Oracle (USA) ?
I guess maybe there was one more good thing about the old 12 meter boats… most raced for their county - with their home-bred crews.
Do I have you confused with someone else?
Perhaps Dick you might be missing the point, somewhat. 12 metres were not about speed, as such. 12 metres were about being in front of the opposition!!
To illustrate the point , one could talk about two identical surf boards and say which one has the edge over the other and it may get down to the different brand of wax on each one. the test of the America’s cup was not speed , so much as who won the event. Where tactics, seamanship, match racing techniques and general legal bullshit came into play.
Now we go for plain unadulterated speed and clearly we have lost something to the grandeur of the event.
Let me ask you about what you think is this perchance of people in persuing this “thing” about money and Canada. Canada was in a economic downturn at this time 1982/3 and so was most of the world , including Australia. So what , I ask?
dick
you are right about me saying i was against sailors from say canada. sailing for lets say oracle. but have you noticed something i just said? back in the 12 meter days. it was about canada1 vs australia II. 2 countries. and the winner went on to beat up on liberty. sailed by yankees. it was country against country. who has the better sailors. who had the better boat. now it has become who has the bigger wallet. it has become company vs company. the iacc division has become about money. and i am fine with that. this is what the division is. the 12 meter class I think still had some room for improvement, i thought that freedom was the best. then along comes a2. and turns the whole thing upside down. bravo all you bastards from down under. then conner comes along with ribblets ok start and stripes. well done dc. all of these are going down a differnt road. what could a2 do with ribblets?. it was not long after that that we went to the new class. 88 was the stupid race. a huge boat vs a cat? was anybody drunk?
then along come bill koch. nuff said there
i still think there was more to the 12s then we expected .
but that is just this humble dumb canadian opinion.
go canada i and a2
well done ya bastards. can i come down for some scrimp?
cougar
A “tongue-in-cheek” reply (just to tease Cougar a bit as a Canadian)
The big money folks in Canada (perhaps) invested in shopping malls and hockey teams, rather than sailing? Canada has it’s millionaires who probably could afford to “play” in the old 12 Meters game, but perhaps, unlike some of us “yanks” - they are a bit more frugal with their money?
Canada has produced some successful and great sailors, but they seem to stay with small boats or one-designs. I am not sure “why” they didn’t emerge as a challenge more often, but then, we could ask that same question about the Spanish, the EAU, the French, or any number of other countries. Heck, even Japan showed up for at least one try. Was Dennis “that” good? Hard to say, but regardless of personal feelings, he seems to have defended himself from other US championship caliber sailors in order to be selected to defend the Cup.
I also think Dennis elevated the entire 12 Meter program, and to some extent the current IACC to a new level because of his attention to detail, his team’s practice and efforts, - and to some extent, his willingness to spend $$$$ on the program.
Buddy Melges, Bill Koch, Ted Turner and others aren’t/weren’t that “bad” of sailors, I just think Dennis turned it into a job, rather than a hobby or sport.
Still - you have to convince me that racing isn’t about “speed”. To me, that means “cruising” ! :smile_pur
lol
You have to admit. For a multihull guy. Dick can be astute. Us Canadians only challenged for the cup a few times. Canada did challenge for the cup back in the early days. Then we built the bluenose. And it beat everything. And was a working boat. A fishing boat, this was a boat that we took to our hearts. And for all those who don?t know much about Canada. Look at the Canadian dime. There she is. Racing has not always been about speed. It is sports were team work, knowledge, and a fast boat. All come together. If it was just about a fast boat. This would have died along time ago. It would have died, just look at the series in 1934 ENDEAVOUR lost to RAINBOW. Why? Simply because of team work. I think that is why we talk about old 12s. We talk about old j class boats.
I get a lot of abuse for being Canadian. And it does not bother me. Maybe because I am Canadian. This is how we look at ourselves and how we look at our cousins. If you ever look at an Aussie and a canuack. We are a lot alike. Both of us think we can do anything. We both play manly sports. Aussie rules football. To our hockey. And both of us love sailing. These millionaires that dick speaks about. I would love to know where they are. Most of them are in the states. Because if they were here, we would mount another challenge.
As much as this pains me (AND IT DOES) Conner did raise the bar. You had to bring your a game to win. Just as Dickson has done. Don?t get me started about Coutts. If he did not have Butterworth. He is nothing.
Cougar
Btw. Does anybody know if there are drawings for a 12 meter out there
Naw - they don’t make them anymore ! 
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Cougar said “I get a lot of abuse for being Canadian”.
Nah Cougar - you get a lot of abuse for being Cougar :devil:
I have some line drawings, including those for KZ7 - which I’ve promised to dig up for Tranth (see earlier in this thread). They are in NZ and I’m in the US - but I’l pull them out at the end of this month when I’m back in NZ for a few weeks.
Dennis Conner was one of the Greats of sailing in the 20th century. Even today dennis’ performance in Etchell class measures how individuals perform in that race. And so he bought professionalism to sailing, the man is a genius and should be applauded.
So Dick you always thought 12 metre racing was about how fast someone could go? This is why 12 metre boat covered the opposition. If it was straight out speed , why bother?
All the R/C class are not about speed. There about keeping in front of the opposition. If it was JUST speed, how DDB(deadly Dull & boring) it would be and not a spectacle.
I know Lexcon was always looking for the 1% extra speed over the opponent. Never trying to beat them by 20%. You see if you beat them by 1% you’ve won. The exercise becomes pointless for the end result (as transpired) is to win the cup and not to produce top speed. Hence Bondy took with him a battery of Lawyers, A sail making shop, sports phsycoligists. etc etc.
So I ask you Dick , when you race do you plan to win or do you plan to win by a big margin? I would always want to win by half a boat length , please.
I agree - a win is a win … but am reminded by a statement made by my old competitive swimming coach… even though on paper and in the water we knew we would win, he never relaxed and usually went with his “A” team of swimmers and divers. His theory was that some day, the opposing team might be just a hair better, but if our team arrived, and the opposition remembered getting “killed” at the previous meets - it was a pschological edge and they always would be wondering how good they really were. I wonder how many r/c sailors have those doubts and start looking at a second or third place finish if/when an r/c national or international champion were to show up? And on the big boat scale - how many really good match race skippers where beaten by Connor, Coutts, Cayaard, or Dickinson long before the gun went off? For a long time over here, if Randy Smyth showed up for a Tornado event - most began to wonder who was going to finish in second. Sometimes getting beaten soundly time and again - and by vast margins, will help play a mind game on the competition.
OK -so it is just a theory, but you asked - and winning by half a boat length gives the competition some “hope” - but getting stomped by a competitor is a humbling experience, especially if you “think” you sailed well.
:smilebig: a difference of opinion, no doubt.
now now guys
we want all out speed. we want to beat the guys into the ground. look at australia II. in 83 that boat stomped liberty. they never took the foot off the gas. i am sorry but i got no real respect for dc. he is very good at the start and with the proper boat. like dick said in the etchell class is where he realy shines. so he is good in light airs. now cris dickson, there is the skipper to be proud off. he can run in lite air, heavy airs, smooth water or big waves. i dont know if bertrand and dickson even met on a course. would love to know
cougar
I thought I might chip in here.
I am probably one of the biggest fans of the 12 metre class ever.They are so gracious, they’re old school classics. They are heavy, slow, powerful and just awesome.
Now the flipside to this is that Im also a mad keen multihull fan. My favourite boat ever (well at least top 3!) was Primagaz, the open 60 trimaran. Ive designed, built and raced my own 22 foot trimaran (she won her fair share of races) and love I the speed when racing, the level sailing when cruising, shallow draft and a heap of other features.
Does that make one boat better than the other?
No.
Just different.
I’ve heard the “not a real boat” argument heaps of times. Ive heard the “at least it wont flip over versus at least it wont sink argument” a million times. Its really just horses for courses.
There is one thing however that a lead bellied sloth like Aussie II and a light weight super hi tech multi like Primagaz have in common… they were the best of their kind at one stage. They were cutting edge, no expense spared race boats that captured the imagination of sailors, and even nations at one time or another.
In short, the were boats with heart & character which made them much more than just hulls, rigs & sails. They kind of came alive. Its been said that the reason men love boats is because its the one thing they can create that has a soul.
That sounds pretty cool huh?
Tranth -
just for you … only ones I have of Primagaz…
Now now Cougar. Australia II wasn’t exactly all over Liberty. She had to fight back after her early losses, and it was all open going into the final race. That’s what made it so exciting! That final race was a classic (I watched it live on TV and was glued to the screen). I wish I had it on tape or DVD.
now now. I tend to disagree there. Race one; Australia II broke her steering gear. If liberty had not won that race. She was a dog. Then race 2 the mainsail broke. Sorry but they could not trim it well. Race 3 was a record breaker. No damage to either yacht. Race 4 was the best that liberty could do. And she won by a slim margin. Race 5 was again Australia II all over liberty
Race 6 was liberty problem. The broken mast ram. And race 7 well great races
. Won only by 41 seconds.
Liberty got hammered. Sorry but no other words can say it.
thanth, what you said I totally agree with what you said. I have never call cats or tris. And toys. But I don?t agree with the saying “if you want fast then multihull is the way to go”
I for one love the 12 meter class. They had style they had flair. And they caused nations to go to war. The iacc class has not seemed to bring that back. The last time that feeling was even close was 95. And black magic. I heard a rumor that the finals were carried live on TV. In New Zealand. The boats I love are the ones that stretch the imagination. Like a2 and nzl 32.
There is a reason we call out boats she. And not he. We love them, care for them, and they break our hearts
Cougar
With passion
Btw.
Just found out that the jib on a2. Was originally from challenge 12. Picked that little tidbit from AUSTRALIA II
The official record.
Ah yes but…
To finish first - first you must finish.
Boat and equipment reliability are as important as boat speed and tactics.
That’s why it’s academic talking about NZL 82 as a fast boat in AC 2003. She broke - end of story. :weeping:
Yes
We will never know what boat was the fastest. Nzl 82 or the Sui 64. This is what the team does. And what the Americas cup was all about. A2 had problems but fought though it. Liberty had problems but fought though it. What I wonder is. The 12 meters, (like a2 and stars and stripes) are they a better race boat than nzl 60 and Sui 64. I know I don’t like the new course. This hot dog should go back to the triangle (Olympic course)
You have to admit though nzl 82. She was a sweetheart. Who ever design that piece of work should be made to work on it. Be a grinder.
Cougar
Coug , are you sure you don’t like the Hotdog , for it has many advantages over the Olympic course. the Etchells use it all the time in Sydney around my area. I’ve used it for racing Ms for it has good things about it to help match racing . Maybe someone should go into the advantages with you?
Olympic course for match racing…BORING,BORING,BORING!!!