the boat above was not geronimo. but the boat that first lost the cup “radiance”
WRONG!! Its Geronimo…just before the tacking battle…I still know when I take a print screen! if you want the exact time, just ask!
I get alot of the canadian dumb here. why dont we talk about 12s. and just ignore the rest
cougar
the rest was giving to us by YOU:banghead: END OF RANT!
Ok some pointers on Ben and the 12’s.
Ben spent many months designing a boat that became Challenge 12.
He spent just as long on the keel and underwater sections of Australia 11, and then basically “cut” the deck from Australia(1980).
He always wished that he could have designed a better lay out for the deck of A11 but there just wasn’t the time.
As for wings and winglets he first started playing with them on the rudders of skiffs in the Brisbane River, baack when he was still known as Bob Miller.
bob was the first to make a “lightweight” skiff using light ply etc., up against the old clinker built things of the time, they didn’t stand a chance and so Bob went on to win the Australian Titles that year.
Just a side note. That first boat was hopeless in the chop of Moreton Bay but great on the river.
Peter
I guessed Kookaburra 2 or 3. Its actually Kooka 1
from http://www.mgsgroup.com/12metre/12m_yachts.asp
Kookaburra
Kookaburra I (KA 11) is a high profile 12 Metre Yacht, known for its participation in the 1987 America’s Cup Defense in Perth.
Iain Murray designed and skippered the Kookaburras working more specifically on winged keel shapes tested in Melbourne. Kookaburra defeated the Bond Group’s Australia IV to defend the Cup for Australia. She also appeared as the feature yacht in the movie “Wind”.
Sounds great to me Coug.
Coug , do you want to talk about it on the forum or by email?
Often good ideas, that come from a computer, and that prove themselves are quickly “discarded” by the “main stream” sailing fraternity, who for what ever reason see, but still don’t believe. Big wet skiffs? “Bathtubs”? Maybe fine for a cruising passion, but if talking yacht racing, (it has always been my understanding) is a race is to go as fast as possible and be first to finish. Unfortunately, the “old school” likes to keep things status quo, which really sucks. Not that there is anything wrong with the J Boats, or even the 12 Meters - but as you note - we multihullers just love to sit back, read about the tons of money and technology to go fast, when in reality, the new ideas are good only if they stay within the context of what “someone” has deemed to be acceptable. So, in reality, yes - bathtubs can be raced, but woe to anyone who shows up with a fiberglass or carbon fiber bathtub if the past has always used cast iron and porcelain tubs. Those new ideas are quickly dispatched without acceptance. And to be fair, yes, … it happens in the multihull fraternity as well. Step outside the “box” and make enemies.
As for more from us than flexible platforms, I can only refer you to the Search feature on the forum and simply plug in “multihulls” - but be forewarned, much of our discussion is radical, and we “thrive” on knots increase in boat speed, not just tenths of knots. That kind of talk around traditional sailors somehow makes them feel uneasy. I guess we with multihull interests are really the Devil incarnate? We can have stimulating conversation - and can easily relate to monohulls - unfortunately the opposite may not always be true, as multihulls as most already know, are the “devils workshop”. :devil3:
And to engineering without CAD - sure it can be done but how long will it take? I give you just one example from within your beloved AC Cup memories… it kicked ass, but then the “fraternity” went right back to lead bottom, slow boats. Oooohhhh - the excitment! (he said sarcastically).
steve
we can do both. with people calling canadain ( me in mind) dumb. i realy dont mind that much. because they are right. when it comes to computers. i dont know a whole bunch. but put me on the water. differnent story. you being aussie must get it too. remember, we are cousins. both countries are founded by great britian… so dont worry
i knew that bob miller was playing with wings back as a kid
but do you and everybody else think. the so call “wings” were that? because I dont think they lifted.but what they did do was lower the bulk of the wieght
peter are you sure about the hull being a slice off A1?
i was sure he added some foreward hull to the boat, was A1 having a problem with submarining. he might have added some bouyancy there
dick
that catermeran was a great idea to combat the big boat. I loved it. just did not get the idea of the solid sails. but they worked. this is what i meen by the americas cup being interesting. every time we go out for the cup. something is new
wings on a keel, double knukle bow, winged sails, teams stealing idea from others.
what boats was used for the movie wind?
There also was a softsail version of Stars & Stripes.
I think that the team knew they could beat Fay’s entry - they just wanted to demonstrate once and for all the vastly superior speed available in a cat, and the solid wing took that one extra step “beyond”. After all - it/they were playing to the general public for obvious political reasons (in my opinion).
First they were beaten in court trying to challenge Fay’s boat design and size. Had they won, we might still be seeing 12 Meter boats on the water (again - JMHO).
Since they didn’t, they probably decided that if we are going to beat Fay, we will be even more outrageous by racing a cat against a mono - and at the same time - let’s put the big, supercharged, turbo-ed Viper V-10 engine in it. The solid wing was (to me) a “Take That” commentary statement that they made to Fay.
Finally - since no big races had ever had the publicity of a cat versus a mono (exept on local lakes perhaps - with beach cat against a small monohull) like this would generate - why not make a statement and end all conjecture. Take this cat at less than half the length of the New Zealand boat, and probably 1/3 the sail area and just completely dominate the mono-hull with a 2-0 to win.
I am familiar with a solid wing cat, and I know from first hand experience the issues that face storing it overnight. A 28 foot wing though smaller than the S&S '88 wing - was still a pain to de-rig and store in large trailer - then re-rig the next day. I hate to think of the logistics of the solid wing cat at the big S&S size. We grumble today about the wimpy weather conditions for the big IACC boats - imagine how light winds would be wanted for something this fragile… so to speak.
I guess it is just too bad that it was a once only thing - but at least I was around to enjoy and appreciate it. The future of the AC boats - ? Who knows - except those with the $$$$$ to play. They will be controlling the direction in years to come, and I doubt (and would be surprised) if ever a 40 foot one-design was used to contest for the cup. Like Formula 1 auto racing - it’s an exclusive club and not many are invited, or can afford to play.
Dick - she was for sale earlier this year, complete with both rigs. She’s been well maintained. I think the price was around USD$500,000.
I can’t find the advert now so I don’t know if she sold.
Of course, until a few weeks ago, the Big Boat, KZ1, was parked about 200 metres from my office in downtown Auckland. She’s still there - I’ve moved.
I remember watching the races live at the time. As a Kiwi, I did not agree with this challenge - but it is nonetheless an interesting part of the Cup’s history.
Muzza - Definitely was great history. I have an article cached somewhere on this computer, that is a news report of the softsail Stars & Stripes when she raced in the Chicago to Mackinac Island in 1998, if memory serves me correctly. At the time this one (there were two platforms) was owned and sailed by Steve Fossett (PLAYSTATION fame) and he set a new course record - which as noted in above “rant” was refused to be recognized by the race organizing committee. I will have to see if I can find it, as it clearly illustrates why we multihullers look with a different light at the blue blazer, white pants crowd.
Best part was I had been back in Michigan visiting family and made a mad dash up to the straits to see her on the water. Didn’t make it in time to see her sail in to the finish though.
Sure would like to see Fay’s challenge boat, as it has to be incredible. Today we get all excited by TP52’s, MaxZ86’s and a couple of 100 foot long sailboats - but here was what I would call a “Mega-Skiff” of around 125 feet! Man - what history.
Dick
You are absolutely right about the Chicago-Mackinac and the boat being owned by Steve Fossett - I remember it too. In fact wasn’t she actually named Playstation for the race? His next Playstation (the super cat) was under construction at about that time in New Zealand.
Coug. Peter was only metaphorically speaking a about the deck on A1. Ben was not the first to use light weight ply for boats . There was a famous dingy class built in Sydney using plywood and designed in 1934 and the dingy was the famous VJ class or Vaucluse Junior. Plans and the history are still availiable in the “Australian Wooden Boats Book” Volume 1, page 13.
Coug, we might have a talk about 12 metres some other time. The conversation just went south to multi hull and there not real boats, thats why they call them playstations etc.
Grrrrr ! :verymad: :verymad: :verymad:
I heard something about Ben just playing with the underwater gear with a2. And the hull shape with challenge 12. I read in sail mag. that he thought challenge 12 was a better boat in the heavy breeze. And IF they could get there. This was the boat to beat. I remember ADVANCE. Being the ugliest 12 ever. And for a boat to finish last. This was the one. Canada 1 was competitive with everything on the water. I just don?t think we could have even hosted the cup, IF we won it. I have to hand it to you aussies. You did a great job, building 4 boats as well as the compound. But boats concerned maybe kookaburra was faster. But I think the driver was the main diff. Bertrand was smart to not be involved. He will go down as the guy who did not lose the cup
Cougar
I thought Bertrand did the right thing as well. What did he have to prove? He won the cup that no other country could win or to some the unwinable cup. Its all well and good looking back after 20 years and theorizing what boat was better but there was not too much of these theories going around in 1983.
Well we’re on to Advance. All in all not a bad boat. Had probs with money troubles and the time factor was a big prob too. To the other contenders it looked a bit weird. It was from a good designer of 12 metres, allan Payne.
The thing about Challenge 12 is that Lexcon didn’t want to build her, in the first place and it only got built by Bondys insistance , because he wanted something to fall back on if Benny’s “new Fandango” didn’t cut the mustard. Challenge 12 had the heaviest keel in Newport that year.
That cutting off of A1 deck, well I’m still laughing.
What ‘Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreatly’ is the Multi hull forum is nicely managed , that it is well ordered, people speak to each other in an orderly way and that is how it should be. Yet, when the same people come to the 12 metres they have a personallity change and the opposite sets in.
How come??
stop the rhum mate!:devil1:
and before saying how nice the multi section…I recommend reading the whole thing…we did have some “fun”…but it calmed down lately
Only pointed out some true facts Steve - :spin:
Just remember, it took a multihull to convince the America’s Cup players and participants that there is life and excitment beyond the 12 Meters. Was that … Good ? Bad ? … don’t care to say, but those couple of races changed the face of the America’s Cup - and in doing so, it wasn’t winged or no winged keels that made much difference any longer, but all of the technology and openess of design that was suddenly freed up, all the composite materials and components (good or bad), the big time sponsorships and the $$$$ and TV coverage it brought, and of course, one of Cougar’s irritations - the loss of home country and national pride as sailors left to follow the dollar.
Without Fay and his monster skiff, and without Conners and his catamaran, would there still be interest in 12 meter racing? Hard to say, but even today, “Joe Average” sailor cannot relate to the huge sums of money that it now takes to even enter, let alone win. Perhaps we are (in a sense) regressing back to the days of J Boats, and only a few will be able to afford to compete. Remove the sponsorships, and even more will drop out.
I (personal opinion here) am now able to use 20/20 hindsight, and have a feeling the 12 meters were pretty much dead - but it took Fay and Conners to stick the fork into the program and put them out of their misery. As many have noted, the experimentation on the 12’s was becoming harder to justify, and harder to produce noticeable results. How much more speed does anyone think the 12 meters could have eked out if they had been left to their own? Possible a knot, but hardly much more.
Thus, my (tongue-in-cheek) response for when multihulls are referred to (hopefully in jest) as “not real boats”.
For me, on a personal basis, the true America’s Cup was the Little Americas Cup when contested in “C” Class catamarans, and who used leading edge technologies and design to go around the course as fast as possible, and without interference of constricting rules of what was legal and what wasn’t. Length, Beam, Sail Area and number of crew - that’s it, no other additional and artificial rules or regulations to keep the competitors from trying for maximum speed. To me, that is the essence of “racing”! Some may disagree.