What is Dickson and Oracle up to? (Americas Cup)

Other The Local Pub
21

i totally agree ian. supporting is the correct word, thanks! yes while you are correct that the teams are racing for a yacht club, you still think of TNZ as “the new zealanders” and of Luna Rossa as “the italians” and Desefio as “the spanish” when you think of oracle you think “oracle”. to me ellison has worked very hard to make himself his own little nation if you will… “we are oracle.” i dunno, just doesn’t seem to be in the spirit of the cup to me.

i’m totally not disputing that sailors of other nationalities on different boats are giving their all… i know they do.

i just don’t think ellison is a very nice man. and i really don’t like the concept that you can buy your way to the americas cup. maybe that is just my understanding as well.:rolleyes:

22

this, really insn’t anything new; it has been like this since the begining.

23

SIR! i must beg to differ! 1980 was the first year that the crews of the boats were even “paid” to sail… it has not always been like this. the sport of yachting has always been a bit more expencive than others, but really starting when the americans lost the cup for the second time, the “Auld Mug” became a rich man’s contest. in 2000, Young America’s budget for just the mast program, was what in 1980 the entire freedom/enterprise syndicate cost. and Young America didn’t even get to challange! i must plead on behalf of this NOT being the way it “used” to be! it was at the beginning, and now, bt in the golden age of the America’s Cup, in the era of the 12’s and even with the early IACC boats, the stakes [money wise] were never this high.

:zbeer: barrett

24

Uhhhhhm - Michael Fay seems to come to mind !

A 125 foot sailboat in the days of (up to then) “little” 12 Meters as a chalenger ? Dollars ???

:wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :rolleyes:

25

and he was the larry ellison of the times!:devil3::scared::rolleyes:

26

Er, paid crews were the norm up to the end of the J era. If there were amateurs aboard, they were typically in the afterguard. The crews were generally made up of fishermen earning cash during their off season; in the case of American boats, they were almost always Norwegians from the Salem, MA area – many could not speak English, and even more could not swim [!]. The one big exception was the 1934 UK effort, when Tom Sopwith fired his whole crew for having the effrontery to ask for a bit more money, since the schedule that year cut into the fishing season. He went on to lose against a slower boat.

Adjusted for inflation, a J Class campaign cost roughly $10 Mil in today’s money. Comparisons are very misleading, however. First, the campaigns were mounted in the context of a thriving maritime industry so much of the capital equipment required to construct and outfit a boat was already there, along with the expertise. Also, the wealthy in those days were wealthy in terms of hard assets like railroads, real estate, and factories, and that was the kind of money they were spending. Today’s gazillionaires are generally wealthy in terms of paper assets like stock and stock options and any comparison across time needs to take that into account as well. In terms of effect on one’s real property, my guess is that the $750K 1937 dollars spent by Vanderbilt hurt more than the estimated $100-200 Mil 2007 dollars supposedly spent by Ellison.

Cheers,

Earl

27

Earl,

Very true. You can also add to that at least half the money spent by bmw oracle racing. was sponcership money, and not ellisons.

28

gentlemen, i think we are oing to have to agree to disagree. my comment was directed at the fact that to me, the contest has lost its purity. its very sad. i know a guy who was one of the best at what he did in the world, and he left the sailing world because it was becoming an ego game. [i’m sure it was before, but the ego was being racheted up, and up, and up.] from what i know of him, larry ellison has rather an overload of ego. it also has been noted by many that this is “the most technical, ego-driven, high-stakes bout for the auld mug ever.” that was gary jobsen. as someone who is incredibly competitive, and loves the purity of competition, it saddens me to see what once was the greatest yacht racing in the world, the pride of nations, become an ego-quest for the world’s billionares.

as i said, i think we are going to have to agree to disagree. i do not discount what you are saying earl, about the age of the J’s, nor, that the crews were paid, but there was a time, when the after the second world war, were to me, the America’s Cup shined as an example of true gentleman’s competition - not knight-in-shining-armor kind of competition, but true, honest, pure competition - that, it seems died with the 12s. it was reborn with the early IACCs, but it seems to have been lost again.

more the pity. :rolleyes:

29

Money is “made round to go round” and many people and industries have benefitted from the AC circus.:zbeer:
While there are lads with more money than brains out there the cup will continue, thank god, as I for one enjoy the whole thing including all the silly stuff.:lol:

My heart goes out to all those sailors and their families who have no job now that their teams have been eliminated.:heart:

So then who will win the Americia`s Cup?..:devil2:

30

Oh, I don’t think I disagree with 420sailor, it’s just that the “Camelot Era” of the America’s Cup was atypical and sadly short. From the beginning to the 1937 race the atmosphere was summed up nicely in 1952 by Clinton Crane, designer of the J Class “Weetamoe:”

"America’s Cup racing has seldom been conducive to good sportsmanship. The attitude of the New York Yacht Club and of its flag officers and committees, and of the actual management of the defenders, has been more that of a man in the forward position at war who has been ordered to hold his position at all costs –at all costs. [Emphasis his.]

The era of at least superficially amateur sportsmanship, IMHO, lasted for just 8 matches from 1958 to 1980. A cynic would say that it was easy in those years for the NYYC to be generous because the challengers were so terribly outclassed, and indeed, the real racing in most events was to be seen in the Defender’s trials (what ever happened to them? :-)) The face of media circuses to come could be seen in the hoopla surrounding Ted Turner in 1977 --a gentleman who could give Larry Ellison lessons in running an organization and in steering a boat.

Cheers,

Earl

31

I would chime in that the “EGO GAME” is alive and well - even within the confines of our radio control classes. There is still a correlation of “rectangular dollars impacting linear performance” to one degree or another - be it technology or professional crews.

Not that there is anything wrong with that! :stuck_out_tongue:

32

Now here is an interesting moot for a debate Dick.:devil3:
Would you care to elaborate or would you rather have a quiet life?:witch:

(perhaps a new heading would be best if you want to do battle mate)

33

I know of a few guys, who just insist everything be sails etc. why? “because it’s the best” ie fastest. But really it’s the most expensive, and in some cases overly heavy.

34

Me? Quiet ? - You gotta be kidding - right? :stuck_out_tongue:

(As an example) There is a quiet move afoot here in the US and within the “M” Class to return to a limited keel depth, mainly to provide the ability to sail in some shallow venues. There are hopes it will also revive the “M” Class - and see new blood joining the class and increasing regatta participation. Unfortunately, it doesn’t address the issue of a very, very expensive boat that is currently the class “yardstick”. Until costs are reined in, many of the “built boats” will continue to have limited ownerships merely on cost alone. This also seems to be a good reason why the “plastic” boats are increasing in popularity.

Over the course of the past few years, there has been a decided difference in owner/sailors in the AMYA, and I would suspect most of our membership consists of retirees – or “close-to-retire” aged folks. While we get interest from many high school age folks, it is easy to see the limited income keeps them from really joining in to a class they would prefer to sail in. When costs of books, school, or even families in the case of the younger crowd in their late 20-early 30’s are a decision point, the r/c “love” becomes secondary. At the other extreme, many retirees are living on a fixed income and disposable income is a concern for them too. Thus we have the two sides – young and old – that are trying to stay competitive within a class only to see the basic boat move further out as a possibility.

I for one would “love” to sail an “M” but even though I’m still working (but looking forward to retirement in the next few years) find the cost of a currently competitive “M” to be outside of my price range – much like a full size 40 foot sportboat! I can see from emails and forum questions many are looking for free boat plans, when in reality, a $10-$20 plan cost is so small of a percent of the value of the boat when built. Thus, if plans are priced at $20 – we have lost a number of interested parties. When they do buy into even a “plastic” class and find the hidden costs of necessary upgrades to be competitive, there is another point where we’ve lost some interest. Finally, when boats exceed $1,000 a lot of them drop out too. It’s one thing to “buy into” the concept of a development class up front – knowing there will be on-going costs to remain competitive, but it is another when the cost of ownership smacks one alongside the head – as in the case of the “M” – IOM – or even the US One Meter class. I am not saying builders aren’t justified in asking for a fair profit on their labor – I am concerned about the “ego” purchases so one can proudly proclaim I am sailing an XYZ boat with ABC sails!

I even am watching the Footy Class – having traded some emails with a few owners and while they look like fun, a lot of the requisite “bickering” may have produced a few “ghost ships” – those that exist but don’t race.

As some know, I am on the bottom floor of the 1:10 scale class, and even the current AMYA president recognizes that AMYA caters (currently) only to racers! Noting is provided to entice scale model builders to join/participate. Using the 1:10 as an example – here is a place for “builders and modelers – not racers, and the size of the finished boat can range from 1 meter up to 2 meters! The fact the emphasis will be on scale appearance first, and sailing ability/speed second may improve AMYA memberships. Unfortunately there will be some who have a ”no expense spared” attitude. They will pay for custom work, hardware, etc. and eventually those with less financial means will soon drop out since they can’t keep up.

I (like a few others) lament the day when wooden boats, wooden masts, and single panel sails left in favor of carbon this and that and paneled sails. The current ODOM and Soling 1 Meter are two current classes where the cost to participate hasn’t reached the ‘unthinkable” Too bad there aren’t more of them !

[FONT=Century Gothic][SIZE=1]Just an opinion of course.[/FONT] [/SIZE]