What glues bottles?

Footy Class General Discussion (Footy)
81

thanks, ffastffrank - interesting link

The PET in pop bottles (or bockles for those in Lincolnshire) is the very opposite of amorphous - it has been emormously stretched in the blowing process and the molecules are also oriented from the extrusion/parizon production.

Which is why it shrinks so very well in diameter and rather less in length.

AndyT - once we spoke about the possibilities of heating and stretching a whole bottle to extend it in order to mould a whole footy in one go.
tried it, tried it.
didnt work for me - I used muscle power and it didn’t work - the bottle collapsed radially as soon as the temperature rose enough to soften the PET.

Snippet of info -
This shrinking of bottle onto a former doesn’t only work with PET bottles (pressure-containing ones).
In my limited experience it works with any bottle that has been blow-moulded
so this would include PVC, polythene and polypropylene and maybe lots of other plastics

andrew

82

Another good link for DIY Vacuum forming on the cheap.

http://www.marvin3m.com/vacuum/index.htm

83

Another good link for DIY Vacuum forming on the cheap.

http://www.marvin3m.com/vacuum/index.htm

84

Hi Frank,

I have had a look at the link and think it is quite useful and has got me thinking. I feel that if a perfect chemical bond cannot be made with PET, we can only stick bottles together with many minute physical interference fits caused by roughed up surfaces. I suppose roughing up the surfaces and using glue with PET is only relying on the glue clinging to the tiny fibres as an intermediate between both surfaces with no proper chemical bonds actually occuring.
This seems to be the case with my stabilit resin and roughed up edges as if you deliberatly tried to peel away the glued surfaces, you could, leaving a smooth surface. Maybe the answer to glueing bottles together is that unfortunatly no strong glue can properly chemically bond to PET and one has to rely on the quality of the roughing up in conjunction with some weaker chemical bonds.

This is only some thoughts I don’t know the answer!

85

I have not built a bottle boat, but imagine a discontinuity at the interface and thus some drag.

Why not vacuum the hulls from sheet material which sounds like it may be under $2.00 per boat At 10 minutes per hull, what’s not to like…

Cost is probably equivalent to a large bottle of soda and your health is better not having to drink it first.

If it were beer in plastic bottles, that changes the whole dynamic.

86

As long as we’re looking at bottles, here’s what I’ve been working on as a prototype for an easily built landyacht. I’m using a 2 liter size for a hull skin to cover the electronics. So far, no need for gluing, but it’s good to know the option is out there.

87

Bill,

At the risk of going onto another topic entirely, is what looks like the rear axle beam made up of different length laminations just like a traditional leaf spring ?

Also, your sail lever slot looks like your not too bothered about waterproofong on a land yacht ! !

Cheers,

firstfooty

88

Yes, it’s laminated together, but not separate leafs like a spring. Gluing the plies together allows a camber to be created. Refer to pages #1 & 2 of my build blog to see how it’s done:
http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/blog.php?u=1049&blogtype=recent&page=4

Yeah it’s pretty much a dry weather activity

89

Loctite Power Grab - Just saw this product on the “Cool Tools” DIY Network Show. Find it at:
www.loctiteproducts.com/products/subcategory.asp?CatID=45&SubID=113

It comes is a double sided heavy duty tape (3/4" x 60") roll. It says on package, Permanent and Interior/ Exterior. Author said it was a liquid adhesive in tape form and was water proof and good from -40 to 250 deg F.

90

Spent my lunch hour in my local hardware store today and there on the stand was a glue I had missed on previous visits.

I have cribbed this from another web site so do not claim the following wording as my own.

However i have stuck two 1inch bits of plastic bottle together and will test it tomorrow with a weighted pull from my spring balance and let you know the results

==================================================

*** What is it? ****

This product is made by Loctite, and it is in their Super Glue range, this is called Super Glue All Plastic. It has been specifically designed to bond all plastics, especially the harder type plastics, such as Polyethylene and Polypropylene, which I believe a lot of children’s toys are made from.
This glue can be used for bonding all types of household plastics, on the pack it lists ABS and Perspex (I’ve never tried this on Perspex, but I imagine it would cause clear Perspex to glaze over!
You can use it for many other materials, such as wood, leather, metal ceramics, paper etc.

Again I’ve really only use it mainly on the plastics, and it does a brilliant job, I’ve not yet had to re-glue any of the things I’ve been called on to repair, some of which are used most days.
*** What is it Like? ***

This glue, comes in a card based pack, the pack is blue and yellow, with the word Loctite across the top. It has a plastic blister covering the 2 glue components, the first tube contains the Primer-activator, the second the actual superglue. These tubes are clearly marked what they are, and indeed they are different shapes. The pack says they are 2g tubes.
The pack I have has a small advert on the top saying “Team McLaren Mercedes Official Supplier” so if it hold an F1 car together then it can’t be that bad!

*** How do you use it? ***
Easy is the answer.

  1. First off, get the pieces that you want to glue together,
  2. Make sure they are clean dry, and they fit together. It is important that you do not touch the areas to be bonded, as the grease from your fingers can affect the efficiency of the glue.
  3. Apply the primer to BOTH surfaces to be bonded, and leave until dry - I have found about 1 minute is adequate. The primer is like a small felt chisel tipper pen, just “paint” over the surfaces, you really can’t tell that there is anything on the surfaces, but trust me, there is!
  4. Once dry apply a very small amount of the glue to ONE surface only, then join the two pieces together, and hold until the glue has set - on the pack it says 30 seconds, but I have found it is better to hold it for about 1 minute.
  5. Leave the item for about an hour before use - I actually do my glueing before bed, so it then has over night to harder - I have glued things and used them after less than an hour, and it seems fine.

Note: when using these 2 application type glues, it is important that you always put the cap on each tube before removing the cap from the next tube, it prevents cross contamination and wasting the glue!
As you only use a tiny amount of primer and glue, this last for quite a long time, obviously depending on how many repairs you make!

As long as you correctly put the caps back on, this glue should last years - I have had mine over a year now, and it still allows for extremely strong repairs.
*** Where do you get it? ***

This glue can be bought from most DIY stores. I got mine from my local private shop, but I’ve seen it in all the big chains. Price wise, I have seen it range from £3.50 up to £5.50. I paid £4.99 for mine.
*** SAFETY WARNING ***

I make no apologies here, I will quote directly from the packet
“CYANOACRYLATE. Danger. Bonds skin and eyes in seconds. Keep out of reach of children. Irritating to eyes, respiratory system and skin. Do not breathe vapour. Avoid contact with skin and eyes. In case of contact with eyes, rinse immediately with plenty of water and seek medical advice”
Ok sounds very dramatic. Yes is does smell - not too badly, but you know when you are using it. For the majority of instances, you will probably only be gluing one or two items, so not really a problem. I always use this in my garage, which is well ventilated - I’ve not yet managed to get any on my fingers yet, so I can’t tell how quickly it bonds skin! (although superglue was originally developed for plastic surgery!)

If you are concerned about the safety aspects of this, you can get information from the websites listed below.
Also if anyone wants to use this at work, then there is a lot of Control of Substances Hazardous to Health (COSHH) information listed on the website.

91

So following exhaustive testing I have the following to report ~

Got two bits of PET and inserted eyelets, one into eace piece.
I prepared 1/2" x 1" sections following the instructions on the packet and once glued, I then left them alone for 1.5 days.

Pull testing commenced with a balance weight suspended from the garage door with the test piece then connected to a bucket suspended inside a dusbin via string

The bucket empty weighed 2lb, I then procedded to add water to the bucket.
At 14lb the string broke, so I had to repeat the experiment with the same test piece but with the string trebled up. At 16lb one of the eyelets ripped itself out of the PET.

I then reversed the PET test piece and clamped it to the garage beam with a C clamp so that the balance could be attached to the remaining eyelet. I then repeated the test. At a little over 20 the other eyelet gave way.

I have subsequently subjected the test piece to a direct pull between my hands and i am unable to pull it apart. The spring balance is rated to 27lb and i can pull over that.

At Andrew Halsteads request, i also did a pull and flex test and can happily report that the test piece still did not give way.

However in the interest of destructive testing, I did try a peal test and it came apart very easily.

Conclusions
Yes it does what it says on the packet ~ however if you must subject it to excessive force it will fail. However IMHO its good enough for Footy’s but I think I would restrict its use to PET to PET joints and use “Zappa-Dappa-Goo II” for anything else

92

Andy and all other contributors to this fascinating thread:

Thanks for your efforts to identify the ideal adhesive. This is the sort of thing that would take a loner months, if not years, to sort out by themselves, We all stand in your debt.

Andrewh:

This started with your shrink moulding experiments. Cam we have a bit more on how you went about these? Did you heat the PET in the oven or use a heat gun? I’m really a balsa and glue man, but this does look like a quick way to produce lightweight hulls.

Russell

93

Russell thank you - I think we are indeed blessed with a wonderful base of information that we are able to tap into and better still a willingness of Footy minded people who are willing to share and help others to find the answers to a problem

This to me epitomises the Footy Class and why I was so enthralled with its concept and ideals.

I feel very proud to be part of it and a contributor to its success.

If you fancy a trip to Clevedon this Sunday to take part in the Footy open meeting there, you not only be very welcome but you will also see why I joined the Clevedon and District MBC - another demonstration of harmony unity and a willingness to help one another … fantastic

94

Russell,

Glad you are finding interest here - I have the whole process of bottle- shrinking badly photographed and will happily set it out in a thread.

I would join my thanks to AndyT - people have been creative and open and it all mounts up to potential openings for progress.

When I started I was severially discomknockerated that I would have to make my first bottle boat in two parts - hence the plea for input from the world.

However it worked well - and the step is about 0.020 inch high and I am prepared to call it a design feature and flow invigorator (right up to the point, of course, when Angus and Flavio gently point out that it is actually a semi-turbulator; incorrectly placed; and I should have taken a number from reynolds.)

There is actually another bottle-related project in early-mulling stage, and if it matures it might get photographed with secret features cunningly pixellated.

andrew

95

Andrew you can do your own vignetting thank you very much - I’ve heard all about you and vaseline…

96

And THAT coming from the Navy!
:zbeer:

97

PET soda bottles are blown in a reheat stretch process. Injection Molded Preforms are heated to the Amorphous temperature and then stretched inside a mold and blown with high pressure air at the same time(around 40-60bar). The stretch/blow process causes biaxial orientation of the PET and it’s “frozen” in it’s amorphous state (cooled rapidly during the stretch/blow proecss). That way it remains flexible and strong. Crystalline PET is brittle, non-orientated and would shatter.

Just FYI from an Old Molder…

98

I used very much the wrong word there!

What I really meant was strongly anisotropic, but wanted to avoid being a smarta55. (As far as possible)
It is so far stretched, and, as you say, cooled to fix the shape that it will return sharply (but not at all evenly) to a prestretched shape so that we can mould footies!

jusval: can you add any useful bonding/gluing insights? If you feel like a pause in intensive razor-building

Can you get pixielated on the national elf? or is that just a ferry story?
(Sorry, trevor, I managed 4 lines of serious - the therapy is working)
andrew

99

Glue/Bond issues are a problem with PET. Any chemical that will dissolve the plastic, so it can be stuck together, will make it loose it’s amorphous properties where it is bonded. Also heating two pieces of it and bonding them together when soft, will make it loose it’s amorphous properties. Slow cooling will cause the PET to revert to it’s crystalline state and become brittle at the bond.

Other plastics like many of the Poly’s, propylene or ethylene are much easier to bond. In fact a high heat gun and a “welding stick” of that type of plastic are made just for making things with poly’s.

I would think that it would be better to look for some other type of bottles made of those materials, but if you want PET, you could try using 2 forms made of sturdy tin, the shape of a half bottle and about 2"wide. , set two bottles cut so that they overlap for a seam and set them in one tin form and put the other tin form on top (sandwich). Somehow it would have to be held together. Then heat the tin with a torch, to heat the plastic sandwiched in. Controlling the temp might be hard. You would need to get the temp to about 400-425 degrees farenheight, but not much higher and not for long. Put it this way, if you heat it and start smelling the plastic, it’s gotten too hot… Then the whole thing would have to be cooled quickly. Just plain tap water, like a bathtub would work. I don’t think the PET will stick much to the tin if it’s a good shiny surface.

That’s the best Rube Goldberg idea that I can come up with at the moment, but if done right, it should work, leaving two pieces welded together and still stay amorphous…

Just my thoughts, but then again my thoughts are subject to investigation by authorities in a several US states…:smiley:

100

A further thought. I have now laid hands on some Loctite All Plastic Super Glue. I haven’t tried it yet, but I have read the small print on the wrapper. Among other things it warns that its “not suitable for … items that will be wet in service.”. Given that the hull will be painted this may not matter, but perhaps we should be doing our pull tests after dipping (or even soaking) the test pieces in water.

Russell