Greetings to all
Ok this one is for the designers and the builders in the group.
Would it be possible to change a US1M into a schooner?
Found this picture on line and it got me thinking (this could be dangerous) and having the love of schooners.
http://www.gregbrownasb.com/project.htm
scroll down to the “Steinman - 21 Meter Lift Keel Schooner”
I know this is not a true schooner with a full complement of sails but it is close and I feel it would still be impressive to see it sailing.
The hull I was thinking of using would be the Mistral.I think the conversen could be done fairly easy. But not been a marine engineer or designer I open the topic to all.
What would you space the masts out at?
Mast & boom lengths?
What would the sail area be for all sails? (jibs foresail, main)
if some one can offer guidance as to how to do this I would be in your dedt.
Hi Jeff,
Why not Scale the Schooner line drawings down onto your one metre Hull, if it doesnt look too way out, try it.
Put a false deck onto your boat, then use the same rig etc as the fullsize boat, and see what happens.
If it is a flop, take the false deck off again, and sail as before.
If it works, fit your boat with a proper Schooner Deck and away you go!!.
Lots of schooners here used to be A Class, or old 10 Raters, sail well too.
“He who dares,Wins”.
John.
Jeff,
Just been doing some VERY rough measurements for your schooner idea.
The Booms would be around 11 inches long, the Masts only 42 inches high, sail area would be rather more than normal,BUT it would be much lower than a standard one metre sail plan.
Schooners can carry a lot of sail because their centre of effort is lower.
I reckon it would work!, but don’t quote me!!.
A false Deck, fitting on top of the original, still water tight one, held onto the boat by thin Nylon straps around the Hull, to keep the drag to a minimum, with the “schooner rig” attached ONLY to the new deck, would prove the viability of the idea.
Cheers,
John.
It was an old Marblehead that was modified into a schooner by adding two soling OM rigs.
It looked quite inpressive and sailed well, accordint to the builder.
I don’t kwon if the scaling down might work (I really don’t like the down scaling of a full size boat or yatch into a R/C sailing model as a general practice… it never works quite right!), but I think is quite possible to modify a Mistral hull into a schooner, you may have to size down the rigs and re-balance the boat, but it’s possible.
Gio,
If the boat has to be re-balanced, rig moved forward, or back, it is better to “chop around” on a false deck, than rip the original boat deck to pieces.
If and when, the rig is in the correct position, a new false deck can then be fitted, OR, the rig fitted to the original boat deck, if so desired.
John.
This brings up a question I have. Is there such a thing as a schooner hull as opposed to a sloop hull or is the hull design independant of the rig that is to be used on it? I’ve seen big boat examples of sloops turned into schooners and 3-masted schooners turned into 2-masted schooners and it made me wonder if if these boats became better or worse as a result of the change?
Hi
Great ideas from all. Like the one about the false deck. Guess I should have said in the first post that I have a hull planked and ready for fiberglassing that is a Mistral so decking is not a problem, can be converted easy.And a number of False decks could be made.
John
thanks for the measurements that you worked out for the Boom and mast lenghts. any idea as to the mast locations? Or would this be trial and error till the right location is found?
Thinking as I work on the converson I will photo graph and log what I have done. And then make information avalble to all. That are interested.
Thanks to all and keep the information coming as this would be a neat project to develop.
Jeff,
The link you posted to the schooner lines plan,
with the plan on screen, I made a “scale ruler”.
The Hull is to be one metre long, hold a piece of paper upto your monitor screen, mark the length of the Hull, onto the paper, these marks are now “one metre” apart.
Divide the two marks into 1/2, and 1/4s, to make a measuring device, for that plan ONLY and on YOUR monitor only.
It is very easy then to find out how high are the Masts, Booms, anything you can see on the plan , you can get its REAL size !!.
You could save a copy of the plan, print it out and do the same thing, sneaky eh !!.
John.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Larry Ludwig
Why not just start with a schooner hull? They are available.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Larry
Thought about ordering ahull but man are they pricey. At least the one I found a while back.
Also what has happened is I have two US1M hulls that I have built. The idea developed to change one into a schooner (or something close) and the other would be a true US1M.
If I can find a good and cheap set of plans for a true two masted schooner I would build it. But cheapest plans I found were $80.00cdn for the Bluenose. A bit out of my money levels at this time so the conversion idea came about.
Jeff,
Thanks for the complement!.
The “scale ruler” method works on an angle as well.
If a photo of a boat you wish to measure, is coming towards the camera, at say 45 deg, if you hold your scale ruler,away from the photo, but inline with the image,down the centre of the boat, mark the two lines as before, to get the Hull length, that works as well!!.
Easy to do, but hard to explain, but the object does not have to be “square on” to the camera, it also works on an angle.
Glad you like the idea!.
John.
Regarding the concept of 1 Meter to schooner, a few thoughts and information.
Most true “schooners” usually had long overhangs at bow and stern, while more modern 1 Meter boats usually have plumb bows and square sterns. It would seem that to get a true “schooner look”, a bob job at both ends would be necessary and new bow and transom added.
I did find the set of plans mentioned in my email to you guys. It is a desk static model of the American Fishing Schooner “BENJAMIN W. LATHAM” designed in 1902 and built at the shipyard of Tarr & James in Essex Mass.
The lines I have are 2 pages with a scale of 1/8 inch = 1 foot. Excluding the length of the bow sprit, the schooner was two (2) masted but had a provision for a single screw engine located to port of the keel line. It is a full length keel with hung rudder, and Overall length was 90 feet. Water line length is about 74 feet. If you build to scale, the overall hull length will be 12 inches long. A bit too small for actually sailing. Seems it would make a beautiful 48 inch (1.2 meter) sailing model. (My humble opinion)
However, as noted, I can probably enlarge the overall length to whatever final size you are seeking. As noted many times, the bigger the boat, the easier it is to build in detail, and the easier to sail once done. I will attempt to get a line drawing posted so you can decide if this is the type of boat you really want to build. Similar to JayDee’s schooner, this one could be built with the full length keel and a detachable deep keel and bulb. Then you would have both a static and a display vessle.
<u>edit: </u><font color=“maroon”>I notice this boat is now available as a plank on bulkhead kit. Upgraded from the original solid model, the new size is 33 inches long x 27 inches high. Still not a great size for r/c control. Cost for the kit plus instructions is about $140 (USD) Here is a photo of a completed larger scale static model.</font id=“maroon”> BEJAMIN W. LATHAM: [ ms2109.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/dick lemke/2004615205728_ms2109.jpg)
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DIck
Sharp looking boat. And I would agree a 1.2metre would look the best
As for “bobin” the bow and stern, maybe the next one or I’ll build it correctly to start with.
Keep in mind that not all schooners are old relics. Mari Cha IV is a modern race boat with 2 Americas cup rigs on a 140’ plumb bow, square stern racing hull. Building a boat along these lines with a Mistral hull and twin rigs off a 24"-32" racing model (like the Victoria rig or the BlackHawk from Victor) would produce a rather nice looking modern racing schooner:
The full size Mari Cha of course also has a canting keel, but I would not recommend that for your boat. If you plan to use a full length US1M keel, then you will have plenty of righting moment for that sail plan - especially considering that the CE of the sails will be much lower than the standard US1M Rig. MariCha also carries some nice looking gennakers. Again this would be a bit much for a model, bust given the samller rig size compared to the hull length, it might be relatively easy to fit out your boat with such a headsail.
Just some ideas that are in line with the hull you have at your disposal…
I was loking at pictures of schooners on the net and noticed that most of them have no backstays or at least no apparent backstay. Am I missing something? How do the masts stay up?
The old gaffer schooners probally used running backstays for offwind work. No need to bend the mast on a gaffer, hence no fixed backstay. You should be able to get enough sweep back with the shrouds to keep the masts up on a model anyway.
Will
The closer the “sidestays” are to the mast the higher the loads are on the rigging, right. The farther away the stays are the less the boom will swing out for down wind. How do they arrive at a compromise between how much the boom will swing out and how strong the side stays are?
Matt
Could you give me a brief discription of how running backstays are used? I think I understand the idea but in my mind it just seems to be very cumbersome.