Dan, I’m afraid you don’t have any conception of the task facing Graham and I in brining CBTF to model sailboats. Not only did he do considerable analysis on his own he had help from the Wolfson unit as well. I got more than my money’s worth!
Your America’s Cup comment was a bit on the silly side but in case you’re not aware the F100CBTF is not an America’s Cup boat…
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
because he doesn’t know diddly about hulls and water and hydrodynamics, for all of that knowledge about technology, he was smart enough to know what he doesn’t know about boats. he paid someone to do what is the most perplexing thing about boats-given a set of parameters what makes a boat go fast, the big question in the Americas cup, development RC (but don’t tell him its development-its too old fashioned for him)and NASCAR even. Anyone can buy a championship or a winning boat or car or whatever if the gloves come off(think NY Yankees-I will catch a lot of crap for that one) and they lift the restrictions.
Actually Doug I do know the difficulties. In less than two weeks I graduate with a B.S. in computational physics. People with my degree write the type of program Gram uses. As a side note i wrote my hull design program.
And if you don’t know, a VPP is not that accurate. Only a full on CFD program will yield accurate performance predictions, and I can guarantee Gram doesn?t have access to one.
-Dan
Dan, congratulations on completing your course of study. It is unfortunate that you ,apparently, choose not to discuss the technical merits of my model IACC proposal when you might have something to offer. The use of a canting keel in the manner I previously described as well as the incorporation of a working spinnaker seem to be things that would interest someone interested in technology. In a previouus post in a rather direct personal attack you seemed to say that it is not the technology that bothers you but me personally. Other than being somewhat insulting I think a statement like that is unfortunate from someone just entering a world of technology who should be able to discuss technical subjects with a more dispassionate and reasoned view. You will find many who will either agree or disagree with you but the ability to epress, advocate for and defend your ideas will be important.
Too bad you don’t seem willing to participate in this discussion…
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
Note that I specifically point for point answered Dan’s “personally” post at 12:58:49PM on 12/03/03. Perhaps I answered his points since there was no follow up to my detailed response.
He basically asked why no canting keels or spinnakers have ever won a race in a recognized development class. The answer is simple and straightforward: the technology is illegal; movable ballast in every class-- practical spinnakers* in most classes except the 36/600.
But I was wrong to let the supposition go unchallenged: over twenty years ago Rich Matt won one or more Marblehead races using a spinnaker.Spinnakers are now illegal in the Marblehead Class…
And there are spinnakers being tried now on some AC class boats and A class boats as well as under development in the 36/600 class. Rules written by people with no RC spinnaker experience limit the effectiveness and practicality of the sails in the AC or A class however.
*practical spinnaker: by this I mean a spinnaker capable of being set/doused in two 2-3 seconds max and carried from a beam reach to a beam reach gybing at will.
Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing
This topic started off talking about the full size IACC boats being “turbocharged” in line with the latest large monohull trends. In my opinion that meant CBTF since a broad variety of new boats are being launched using this system. While I believe the IACC guys have made a mistake not going for a canting keel and /or CBTF this time I believe they are highly likely to after the upcoming race. Time will tell.
This topic has wandered to model CBTF use and effectiveness, VPP’s etc. And I’ve relatively recently made the case to consider a new one design or development class utilizing both spinnakers and canting keels. The use of this technology on a model would bring the performance up to levels never before achieved on a model IACC boat and would mitigate some of the effects of scaling down these boats.
Seems like a pretty exciting boat could be the result…
UPDATE: 12/06/03- note that as of this date the title of this thread has been changed to more accurately reflect the technical subjects contained within it
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
doug
I dont meen this as apersonal attack on you. i have only been following you posting for the past 4 weeks. but I dont think canting keels would be the answer. do i think there is a possible futrue for then / yes? but not untill we make this boats safe. nez zealand just impoded by trying new tecknowolgy. maybe we can look at sails and how to improve on them?
Cougar, in fullsize boats canting keels have been around for over twenty years–they have proven safe and reliable.
In models one company is now producing a canting keel boat and another about to start; my own testing of the concept in models goes back over 5 years.
There are no safety issues in models.
A canting keel on an model IACC boat can allow more power to carry sail and thus produce a model that more closely resembles the full size boats.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing