Tim Jeffrey of the Daily Telegraph quoted in todays Scuttlebutt said that Ernesto Bertarelli of Alinghi fame and current holder of the America’s Cup was considering turbocharging the IACC boats"… IN STEP WITH THE LATEST MONOHULL DESIGN TRENDS" !!
This can mean only one thing if Jeffrey is accurate: IACC boats with CBTF!!! Not old fashioned canting keels with daggerboards: CBTF. This could result in 50% less displacement for the boats OR the same displacement with MUCH more power to carry sail! It is the ONLY way to really turbo up an IACC boat short of making it a multihulll! No technology that could remotely be considered as “turbocharging” an IACC boat could produce the speed gains around an America’s Cup course as could CBTF… Anything less is nothing at all…
UPDATE: 12/6 /03: this topic has made many twists and turns and so the title of the thread has been changed to reflect most but not all topics covered.
While I agree with you that this would be a great improvement to the IACC performance, I am not sure that is what Bertarelli meant when he said “turbo.”
The current batch of “turbo” sleds racing in the offshore circuit do not have CBTF technology on board. Basically they took Santa Cruz 70s from the early to mid '80s (Remember when they called them ULDBs) and added sail area, taller masts and deeper, bulbed keels to them. That is what is meant by “turbo”.
So when Ernesto is talking about Turbocharging IACCs, he is probably talking about tweaking the IACC formula to favor taller rigs with more sail area and perhaps even allowing deeper keels.
I for one would love to see the IACCs - often touted as the pinnacle of sailing technology - with CBTF technology. But my guess is that they will stick with the current class restrictions in that regard and instead work to tweak the rule in such a way as the current batch of boats fall near the middle of the design envelope as opposed to one small corner. Then allow the designers to search out the design space to find the new optimial design.
But I could be wrong… We will have to wait and see.
Will, that is what USED to be meant by “Turbo”.With the maxZ86 class,mini 6.5’s and several new maxi type boats all being built with CBTF and with it being touted as being the most significant new technology to hit yachting in 50 years turbo MUST mean CBTF. Especially if Jeffrey is quoting Bertarelli.
But sadly you’re probably right that they won’t adopt CBTF but these days you never know-and besides “turboing up” a big monohull witout using CBTF would be virtually meaningless now…
Nah, I think it one really wanted to Turbo charge the boats they would take two hulls, sans keels, strap them together 60 feet apart and add a massive rig. Would be much more turbo and interesting than last years boats with “wiggly bits” hanging underneath. Before someone dismisses this idea, keep in mind that he already has a couple of “turbo with Nitrous” catamarans.
Well, guys it’s gona be monohulls and you just can’t make a (BIG) mono go any faster around a course than you can with CBTF! Even though the technology is legal in the new Volvo Class and the maxZ86 class and fits the criteria described in the article to a “t” it is unlikely that such a radical turboed up mod will be adopted. But it should be-- though multis would be far more spectacular to watch…
<<Well, guys it’s gona be monohulls and you just can’t make a mono go any faster around a course than you can with CBTF! >>
I disagree. An Aussie skiff is faster in all conditions than a 75’ CBTF could dream of. Now there is an idea; take a skiff, double its size, assign 24 of the 30 crew trap harnesses…
Those who disagree with Doug are always wrong. Cuz he’s always right. I have yet to see anybody talk about how good CBTF is on boats specifically designed to bouy race. I guess it adds a new dimension to crash tacking?
Kris, do a google search for the Italian Libera 30’s…
Have you no vision ,Rob? Can’t you conceive of anything that isn’t already written down somewhere?
From a technical standpoint CBTF points higher, tacks quicker than any other technology for monohulls so your hostility must be directed at the speed of moving the keel? Simple engineering problem well within the capability of any IACC syndicate!!
You have an idea though(in your own special way): those Libera boats that sail on Lake Garda are really hot-just scale them up ,add CBTF and wow! a really, really fast mono!
Hey, Jonathan Mckee pulls his canting keel athwhartship and fore and aft by hand -no hydraulics.
But the way to do it on an IACC boat is electro-hydraulicaly-movable ballast is legal under any form of power if the class rules say it is-
Imagine how much faster an IACC boat would be if it had the same righting moment and 50% less ballast!
I think it would be awsome to see the IACC boats all turboed up…but can these boats take it. everything is impact loading now. these boats are just on the edge of disaster 24/7. I personally think thats the way it should be. canting ballast would be awsome to see implimented in the new series of IACC boats. but I have heard lots of the impracticality of using the technology in bouy racing…wouldn’t it be hard in a tacking duel to use the ballast well… although I want to see it done i just had to ask this stuff cause it seems like some hurtles need to be jumped before it all to work
The simple fact is the America’s Cup is not being raced in canting keeled boats or Aussie Skiffs or Catamarrans.
“Turboing” a big monohull basically means putting on more sail area, comes from the West Coast sled world.
Also, last I checked this was supposed to be about r/c sailboats. While developments in big boat sailing can be interesting, shouldn’t discussions at least relate to how it translates into r/c sailing?
The Schock 40 is a great example of a CBTF boat that is designed for buoy racing as well as distance racing.
Tacking a schock 40 is an awesome experience. Assume that you are sailing along with enough wind to have your keel fully canted to windward. When you are ready to tack, you open the valve on the hydraulic lines and let gravity pull the ballast toward center (no need for a pump yet). As this happens, the boat begins to heel. The helmsman allows this heel to round the boat up into the tack. By the time the boat gets head to wind, the keel should be canted about 30 degrees or so to leeward and the boat will be really heeling. You close off the valve on the hydraulic line at this point and let the boat go through the tack. As the sails fill, the boat will begin to heel on the new tack. At this point you engage the hydraulic pump and pump the keel the last 20 or 30 degrees or so to windward. This has the effect of flattening the boat. For anyone who has roll tacked a collegiate dinghy, they will recognize instantly that if this maneuver is executed correctly, you will come out of the tack with as much speed (if not more) than you went into it with. Of course, you have to be careful not to have too much more speed coming out of the tack because the current interpretation of the roll tacking rules limits a legal roll tack to a tack where you end up with no more speed going out than you had going in.
Bill Lee is the King of the west coast sled scene and HIS definition of turboeing up a big monohull is to add a canting keel! I talked to him personally recently; he also feels, as I do, that the next BIG development in offshore monos will be a canting keel boat utilizing hydrofoils.Also, if I remember correctly,the phrase “turboeing up” was used reently in some(Australian Sailing?) publication to descripe a TP52 that had undergone the installation of a canting keel.
But for the IACC boats CBTF is the most advanced currently available new technology and can result in MUCH more SA with the same weight or the same SA with 50% less ballast.Screwing around with a deeper fin --or anything short of a canting keel is not good enough to capture any greater share of the public imagination…
Discussion of some developments and potential developments in full size sailing is very important for development within rc sailing. Two manufacturers are now offering canting keel boats(one is CBTF) and more are sure to follow. Understanding the new technology and how it can be applied requires discussion of the full size boats that have originated the technology or that may be considering employing it.
Besides, its fun to talk about stuff like this isn’t it Roy?
I think lorsail is 100% right. seing as ctbf is being used on many fullsized boats today it can only trickle down into the rcsailing community. there are already examples in fullsized boats that prove the awsomeness of moveable ballast. I would give up a lot of red meat to sail on one but there arn’t many around me. However I did the Hook this year on my fathers 1974 C&C36 and we absolutely destroyed the Shock 40 in the race… whether the crew just wasn’t doing to hot or what they never left our sight untill the last leg of the race 3 days later. I do love canting technology though, it’s a beautiful thing
Running backstays, roller furling and rod rigging are very common in “big” boats and don’t work in r/c racing.
And to date no one has shown that water ballast or winged keels or twin rear rudders (also regularly used in “big” boats) are a speed advantage in r/c racing. Also keel fins on big boats aren’t nearly as deep proportinally as those used in r/c sailing. I don’t think that means that shorter keels would be better in r/c racing.
Doug, CBTF is very cool technology, and I look foreward to seeing it in R/C sailing. But could you give me an argument why IACC boats really need to be faster. Maybe I’m just an old fart, but to me, big time match racing is about tactics, boat handeling…etc. You know , seamanship under a lot of pressure. Why does just making the boats faster mean the competition will be better? Seems to me that what makes for an exciting Americas Cup is close, competitive racing. Is adding another variable like CBTF and the potential problems that come with it really worthwile? The least exciting races in the AC are the ones where one boat breaks, or has some problem with equipment that puts them at an insurmountable disadvantage. Seems to me that a good robust boat that can be sailed in a fairly wide range of conditions (5 to 25kts.) is good enough. The technology of the IACC boats is pretty tricked out already. I think a set of rules that puts the emphasis on the sailing and boat handeling instead of encouraging a situation where the designers try to win the Cup by comming up with some gimic (like the hula) is a better way to insure an exciting AC. I’m not saying CBTF is a gimic. But I’m not convinced the speed increase it would bring is really worth it, in light of the expense of re-desigining the boats, and the inevitable reliability issues that would come with desigining a CBTF system to the edge of the envelope.
Dick, I was referring to the article(quoted previously) that said Bertarelli was considering “turbocharging the IACC boats”. If that were to be done there is no better way in my opinion than CBTF: the canting keel has been around for over 20 years with hundreds of thousands of ocean miles behind it. The CBTF system has been tested for over 8 years on many different boats including but not limited to the 60’ Wild Oats who is winning almost everything she enters… I believe this COULD be done and for the sake of allowing more interest to be generated in the AC should be done. Skipper and crew skill , tactics etc. would be tested with a faster boat at least as much as they are tested now if not more.
But I don’t think it will happen: they may add a foot to the keel and a square meter or so to the sail area but I expect very CONSERVATIVE “turboing” if any at all.
Personally, I think the race should be sailed in 60’ hydrofoil equipped multihulls!!! Or scaled up Libera type giant skiffs-something that could create excitement beyond just the current audience.