Factually challenged ,Steve? Hows your “F100” coming along?
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
Just goes to show how good the design of the F100CBTF is: you can’t get better than Graham Bantock and the Wolfson Unit collaborating on a design for a model raceboat! Grahams extraordinary good judgement combined with his proprietary application of the science of yacht design to rc raceboat design coupled with his consultation with the guys from Southampton is good enough for me!
The F100CBTF design with such an outstanding team is sure to be a benchmark design in the history of model yachting…
And given my last post we’ve got to be thinking about an rc version of a CBTF powered IACC boat!
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Hey Doug, Anybody can pay Graham to do the hard work! For all your boasts and claims to be high tech all you’re doing is taking other peoples ideas and making it sound like you’re the person behind the innovation.
Rob
“anybody” sure could have saved me a lot of time and money. Where is “anybody” when you realy need him(her)?
“anybody” could have posted about CBTF over two years ago but didn’t;“anybody” could have conceived of and managed this project but didn’t.
“anybody” was strangely absent when it came to getting the exclusive license to produce CBTF models…
“anybody” ?! Really?
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
No, Doug. I have all the facts I need to know…about MicroSail. Or, is it Lord R&D, LLC, these days? As far as the boat that I have that fits the F100 rules, it is finished. No need to send out your legal beagle, it doesn’t have CBTF.
Glad to hear it Steve! “Anybody” can use CBTF on a F100 or anything else; or should I say that if “anybody” is not available any individual
anywhere can use CBTF on any boat and I’ll help them if they ask-no strings, no cost–just free speed.
Could you elaborate on the design philosohy on your F100?
Are you using the “radial” with the sagging jib that you mentioned on the other forum?
Inquiring minds would love to hear about it…
Oh, and how about Jim Pugh’s comments on the IACC boats a few posts back? CBTF on an IACC boat?
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
“anybody” sure could have saved me a lot of time and money. Where is “anybody” when you realy need him(her)?
“anybody” could have posted about CBTF over two years ago but didn’t;“anybody” could have conceived of and managed this project but didn’t.
“anybody” was strangely absent when it came to getting the exclusive license to produce CBTF models…
“anybody” ?! Really?
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Doug,
Of course anybody, the US1M Graham designed was bought and paid for. So “anybody” can have a boat designed by Graham for them. More than a few IOM hull lines have been thru the Wolfson VPP unit including Graham’s boats. Even in a class as wide open as the F100 there will be several designs that will be “fastest”. There are always trade-offs to be made.
I continue to look forward to the seeing the real thing on the water.
Rob
No, I am using a break-back swing rig, so the jib luff is positioned on the center line when the rig is trimmed.
I would love it if they were able to get 10 or more tons off the bulb of the IACC. There is no reason for those boats to displace what they do now. Planing downwind would add a lot of excitement, in place of the usual parade.
The IACC boys better not sit around too long making up their minds to turbocharge the IACC boats “in line with current monohull trends”(quote from article in the first post to start this thread). Because,like Jim Pugh said ,technology is changing incredibly fast. IACC boats will be hopelessly out dated and out moded by the next America’s Cup if serious changes are not undertaken soon.
Two maxZ86 Super maxi’s and the 90’ Genuine Risk all with CBTF are about to be launched. Mari Cha is on the rampage with her canting keel :“dynamic ballast”,as Seahorse magazine puts it is the wave of the future-and present. The fastest monohulls in the world use it! If the IACC boats are to be relevant then they better make some serious changes, I would think.
Technology is not sitting still waiting though. You’ve got Moth’s flying completely clear of the water, AND TACKING AND GYBING WHILE STILL ON FOILS and winning races at World Championships; you’ve got Bill Lee saying the next big thing will be hydrofoils on 60’ monohulls with canting keels (something I have been working on for over a year in models).
And speaking of models: technology has advanced to the point that fully functional rc spinnakers are a reality; rc multihulls are flying on hydrofoils, hydrofoils with retracting foils will soon be reality as will be rc monohulls on foils. Smaller than ever spinnaker boats for rc racing are being developed,canting keels are available now and rc CBTF is not far away. Movable ballast is being used by at least two rc multihull manufacturer’s to increase speed and control(and fun).
Four development classes in various stages of starting up allow movable ballast for the first time in the history of model yachting. New classes are being built that allow hydrofoils and spinnakers–asymetric or symetric.
The very shape of rc sailboat rigs is being changed in several classes for the first time since the end of gaff rigs.
Its an exciting time in the sailing world with huge changes happening right in front of anyone that pays attention–and I trully believe that Mr. Bertarelli IS paying real close attention! And that there are BIG changes to the Cup boats coming–sooner or later. And for the sake of the Cup I hope sooner–
So maybe, just maybe it’s time for a new “future” IACC model that allows practical spinnakers, skinny hulls, square top rigs and–you betcha: canting keels and CBTF.
Something around 60"-72" or so: sexy, skinny and fast as hell…and maybe designed by Graham Bantock and a couple of other sailor/designers?
Future IACC Model(UPDATE):
-LOA 68".
-LWL 60" max
-minimum beam 8"
-SA-upwind-1880(max) sq.in.;downwind-3200sqin max.
(sym and /or asy spin legal-any system)/ Three rigs limit/reefing legal/no planform restrictions.
-Max draft 22 in.
-Displacement: 12lb.'s-min
-limited to monohull sloop rig
-movable ballast legal as long as it is below the waterline and/or inside the hull.
-no radio resrtrictions -from or to the boat.
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
can somebody tell me what “cbtf” meens before I wiegh in?
Cougar
Cougar,
It stands for “Canting Ballast, Twin Foil”. Go to www.dynayacht.com for a full technical discussion of the underlying technology…
- Will
Will Gorgen
Cougar-jump right in; though the definition of CBTF is all over this website I’ll give you a quick run thru: CBTF=Canting Ballast Twin Foil ; it is a system invented about eight years ago that utilizes a canting keel to provide righting moment. Use of a canting keel can allow a ballast reduction of up to 50 % for the same maximum righting moment(option one). And allows the boat to sail at any desired angle of heel that is best for the design of the boat. You can also keep ballast the same and increase sail area but generally boats have been designed using option one. Thats the first part; the second part is that CBTF allows both rudders to be turned the same direction upwind(collectively) which allows the ELIMINATION of leeway making a properly designed and sailed CBTF boat the fastest monohull keelboat going into the wind.
There is much more both in this thread --that has many twists and turns-- and elsewhere on this forum about CBTF.
The thread started because I’m convinced that if the IACC boats do not power up using this kind of modern technology they will be eclipsed by the new breed of big monohulls like the maxZ86’s,Maiden Hong Kong, Genuine Risk and Mari Cha(not cbtf but w/canting keel) and others.
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
thanks for the invite into the arguement. i am new to this message board and only knew about this from a freind of mine (marko) i hope it is the same guy that is from toronto. In my limited experince desinging IOM boats. i cant see the postives of having twinn rudders. you can make them smaller which would ruduce the drag on them but a single rudder does the same thing. I always like the Kiss principal. as for the canting keels it would be interesting to see , but not in the iacc boats. i was real disapionted in the finals this year. maybe kepping the canting keel to the vovlo circuit or whitbread should be where they should be invistaged and maybe then when we know more about them shuld we look into placeing them in acc boats. marko is a smart man, and he has help me with alot of infomation, this i need because , right now I perfer to design my own boats and learn from them, I listen and pick up a thing here and there. my boats are quick in certain condition and just plain barges in others. thanks for the info on the canting keel
Hey, I have been looking at the CBTF info on the web for a few months now. I am wondering if it has ever happened that a bulb hit another boat during close maneuvering. I could concieve of this happening in a stiff breeze when a CBTF boat on port tacks under a boat on starboard. Or in a luffing match downwind. I could certainly see it happenning in a match race like the AC, where the sailing can get quite close. However, I have never sailed one of these things, so I really am just imagining.
I am also just dying for a picture of a cbtf boat broaching with the bulb out of the water.
I am not sure if this is the right place for this question, since this forum seems to be mostly about rc, but I thought I would try. If anyone knows of a different discussion board that covers cbtf issues in big boats, please let me know that too.
NR-- canting keels have been around over 20 years and CBTF about 8-I’ve never heard of or seen pictures of the type collisions you mention. Probably because in close prestart manouvering it would be rare to have the keel canted max out.
CBTF boats don’t broach–just kidding -but they are a lot less likely to broach since they have so much more control than a “normal” keelboat…
Since many canting keels can cant up to 55 degrees I’m sure there will be incidents like you’re describing sooner or later.
There is a boat called Bondi Tram that sails in Sydney- I think- that has a canting keel with wings on it like an IACC boat. Except that the wings are designed to generate lateral resistance when the keel cants. At max cant angle with a little heel on the boat the windward(upper) wing penetrates the surface–they’ve even painted it a bright color to make it easier for people to see. Now that would be a picture!
One of the best sources for new technology in sailing is Seahorse magazine. There is also boatdesign.net where full size sailors and designers exchange info. There are a couple of topics on that forum that might interest you. The second best mag for new tech is (US) Sailing World followed by Sailing and Sail magazine in that order in my opinion.
What is your interest in CBTF-use on a full size boat, a model or just curious?
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
My interest is just that. I am a science/technology guy, and a sailor. I have a new Ultimate 24 that I am sailing on SF Bay. Lots of fun. My kids like it too! However, even this boat is putting budget pressure on me…
When I was out sailing on the Schock 40, the question about clashing keels came up. It turns out that the bigger problem is clashing masts. Before you get close enough to another boat that your keel might touch them, you mast will hit theirs. This is because with the CBTF boat, you are sailing really flat whereas the non-CBTF boat is heeling.
- Will
Will Gorgen
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
The IACC boys better not sit around too long making up their minds to turbocharge the IACC boats “in line with current monohull trends”(quote from article in the first post to start this thread). Because,like Jim Pugh said ,technology is changing incredibly fast. IACC boats will be hopelessly out dated and out moded by the next America’s Cup if serious changes are not undertaken soon.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
The new IACC rule is out. More sail area less weight.
Rob
Too little too late: here we go again with tens of millions of dollars being spent to find out how to drag lead around .000034 knots faster!
What a waste of all that R&D money! Totally irrelevant to the modern technology now being applied to big mono’s.And thats now : by 2007 these things won’t be seriously considered “high technology” boats at all…
A maxZ86 would sail a circle around one of these old fashioned ,outdated, past their prime behemoths…
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
Dick, we’ve only begun to scratch the surface of this topic–for instance: what if they hold the “Corporate Cup” and nobody shows up? Etc, etc.
Also one commentator said the new rules will produce one knot upwind and knots downwind–will that be enough?
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing
I don’t think the topic is dead by a long shot and I think it has plenty of relevance to rc sailing.
Most people understand that in scaling a boat down it loses its ability to carry a scale rig especially if the boat is an IACC type model. Further ,an IACC model can benefit big time from using a spinnaker except that to do that further taxes the righting moment of the boat on reaches.
So if you wanted to design and build the ultimate IACC model that actually looked like a full size IACC boat wouldn’t it be appropos to consider the use of a canting keel so that the boat would not have to be a heavy displacement boat? This would allow the creation of a model that looks like an IACC boat with a relatively light displacement and excellent performance upwind and down-surpassing any currently existing “IACC” model.
Doug Lord
microsail.com
monofoiler.com
High Technology Sailing/Racing