Low-key (I hope) contest to design/discuss what a J Class yacht would look like today if designed with modern materials and knowledge. Updated, and I hope final, rules and info at http://www.swcp.com/usvmyg/JContest.pdf
Cheers,
Earl
Earl, would canting keels be consideed legal? I have the rules and unless I missed it there is no prohibition.
Also,it would seem that modern fully raoched /square top rigs might also be legal.I’d appreciate you thoughts on these questions…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Doug wrote:
“Earl, would canting keels be consideed legal? I have the rules and unless I missed it there is no prohibition.”
That’s right, the rule is silent on that. We do ask that you provide an analysis that shows that canting with human power is feasible (at a 65% ballast ratio, you’re talking 120 tons of bulb at the minimum displacement for an 87 foot LWL boat)
“Also,it would seem that modern fully raoched /square top rigs might also be legal.I’d appreciate you thoughts on these questions…”
Again, yes, but there are batten limits. (5 max, outer 10% of the foot of the sail plus a foot, inner 12% of foot of sail plus a foot.)
I was going to print a copy of the revised rules for you but my printer just died 
There’s a bunch of new stuff there, including the sailing conditions (off Newport, light air) that you would want to design to. Maybe somebody else can help out.
Cheers,
Earl
I’m not at all convinced that a canting keel would be beneficial on this particular design and if there is a requirement for human movement of the keel then it would pretty much be impossible. Likewise on the battens-not in my copy of the rules. If you could send the latest copy to me in a pdf format I could forward it to my secretary and get her to print it out.
Just out of curiosity- where would the requirement for human movement of the keel come from? I would think that the use of modern methods might include the use of hydraulics unless there was some specific prohibition in the original rules. Even if hydraulics were allowed at this displacement I’m not sure that a great benefit could be achieved with a canting keel.But it’s interesting to contemplate.
When compared to Mari Cha IV the true scale of the J becomes apparent: the J has roughly twice the total weight of the 140’ Mari Cha in her KEEL! At this point in time Mari Cha’s canting keel is the largest built…
Was a minimum displacement a feature of the original rule? That’s really the kicker, it seems to me, in assessing what contribution modern materials and methods might make in “updating” such a magnificent sailing yacht.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
doug
i dont htink a j clas boat would need a canting keel “GIMMICK” to be appealing to the sailors. the j class boats in there hey day , were the best looking boats of there day. o prsonaly think that the j calls was human powerd. and thus, the modernd day one would also be human powered. tha Iacc boats are human powered. amd the j class boats raced for the same trophy
cougar
Reading this reminds me of a video I have called Aussie Assault. It was mainly about the 83 cup, but went back into history abit.
There was one part on it concerning J boats, which mentioned that tea was served while racing. If modern materials are to be considered, do you think they would put microwaves in the galley to help out the tea making progress?
Just a thought on the lighter side of thing.
I for one would love to see these grand old ladies of the sea make a come back albeit with up to date boat building methods, sails etc.
Doug said:
“I’m not at all convinced that a canting keel would be beneficial on this particular design and if there is a requirement for human movement of the keel then it would pretty much be impossible.”
Agreed. Although I don’t have a copy, I’m sure that the North American Yacht Racing Union general rules specified wind and crew power only.
“Likewise on the battens-not in my copy of the rules.”
Right. I was sent, on a restricted distribution basis (some copyright thing, I guess) a copy of the 1936 Universal Rule, which I used to flesh out the new version. That’s where the batten limits came from.
[snip]
“I would think that the use of modern methods might include the use of hydraulics unless there was some specific prohibition in the original rules. Even if hydraulics were allowed at this displacement I’m not sure that a great benefit could be achieved with a canting keel.But it’s interesting to contemplate.”
Yes, but remember these are match races. If I were up against a canting keel boat I’d do everything in my power to get them in the tacking duel of their lives. Also, windward legs in those days were either 10 or 15 miles long. I think the the crew of a canting keel boat would be a puddle on the deck after a 15 mile tacking duel.
“When compared to Mari Cha IV the true scale of the J becomes apparent: the J has roughly twice the total weight of the 140’ Mari Cha in her KEEL! At this point in time Mari Cha’s canting keel is the largest built…”
Sure. Mari Cha is a modern speedster, basically a giant sailboard, flat, wet, and uncomfortable. Probably pounds like the devil and requires contstant attention at the helm as well.
A J was intended to carry crew, owner and guests across an ocean in style and ease. Vanderbilt said that “Ranger” could be held on a beat with one hand on the wheel.
The accomodation rules stated that there had to be staterooms, galley, heads, and crew quarters with fixed partitions and doors suitable to entertain HM The King of England and party. Remember, there were 31 people on board when “Ranger” won the 1937 cup. Those beauties were big
“Was a minimum displacement a feature of the original rule? That’s really the kicker, it seems to me, in assessing what contribution modern materials and methods might make in “updating” such a magnificent sailing yacht.”
Yes, displacement was a positive factor in the rule from the very beginning (more displacement, lower rating). When the rule changed from a handicapping system to a class rule in the 1930’s, the displacement became, in effect, a minimum. After all, how are you going to hold a party on board for 31 people if you haven’t got the space ? 
Just to show you how pretty a boat comes out of the Universal rule, here’s a rendering of the (never built) 1937 Tore Holm design, by T.J. Perotti of Perotti Perfomance Design, LLC. A boat in the spirit of the Js by that firm can be seen at http://www.perrottidesign.com/savannah.html The modern replica of “Ranger” is on the Web at http://www.sy-ranger.com/
Cheers,
Earl
Download Attachment: [ ToreHolm-TJP-01.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Earl Boebert/2004221101115_ToreHolm-TJP-01.jpg)
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Earl, just to discuss the canting keel by human power a bit further. This is to be a contest showing how a J boat might be designed today ,right? The racing rules worldwide seem to have made accomodation to the use of powered canting keels on boats like the Schock 40, the maxZ86’s, Skandia, Genuine Risk and many others including Open 60’s. Shouldn’t the rules as applied to so many big ocean going yachts today apply to the J as well?
Curious as to the thinking behind this. I do feel that it is highly unlikely that a canting keel -even powered-would have much of a benefit since it can’t be used to reduce displacement. But the outright prohibition of it is a bit of a concern.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Well, they’re not specifically forbidden, it’s just that they have to be moved with “Swedish Steam” as the fisherman crews of the day were called. I have not run across any direct or indirect reference in all my reading on the topic to suggest that auxiliary power for any purpose was even considered by anyone. The basis for this contest was “if the J rules were frozen in time, what would today’s boat look like.” There’s another possibility, which is “how would the J rules have evolved to today,” but that’s a different contest.
Cheers,
Earl
You’d need a crew from the set of “World’s Strongest Man” contests… These boats were also beeyooteeful, and a crew of guys with necks bigger than my leg would wreck the ambience…
There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. Kenneth Graeme, Wind in the Willows.
Earl, now you’re talking:" how the rules would have evolved"-great idea. How do you think they might have changed thru the years?
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
You allowed to use coffee grinders aren’t you? Have the crew grind the keel over you can link as many peadastles as you need to one winch so surely it could be done? They had huge numbers of crew on these things anyway.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
I’m not sure the gain would be worth it at the contest displacement or even if you reduced displacement 50%! The real beauty of a canting keel is that you can exceed hull speed wit a good “candidate” design and I think you wouldn’t be able to do that significantly with a J at even half the weight.But there would be a small window of opportunity…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing