Spinaker/ genaker for Rc -boats

Re. My experiments with retractable spinnakers:

Refer to Resources, Photo Albums, then to “R” for Rich Matt. I tried to upload five photos, but only three are visable.

One photo showing a white-yellow-red spinnaker is an LJ-50 “M”, about 1979. This was my first spinnaker experiment. This wedge shaped boat with it’s always-open bow opening was not entered in any competion other than an “M” ACCR held in DesMoines, IA. It finished either 4th or 5th overall. A few years later and after the third time it made like a submarine this boat now remains on the bottom of Axehead Lake in Chicago.

Another photo shows an Epic-M having an all-white spinnaker and being held by the legendary Henry Morris. This photo was taken at an ACCR event in Long Island, NY, some 20+ years ago. Note the servo operated bow hatch cover – Lessons being learned! This boat finished 2nd in a “M” Regional Championship held in Tampa, FL. This boat is retired to a shelf in my den.

A third photo showing a Ten-Rater having a blue and white spinnaker was taken at the 1980 IMYRU World’s held in Ottawa, Canada. I don’t remember how the boat finished in standings. I do remember, and especially if anybody asks for witnesses, how whenever the spinnaker was hoisted or doused the half-dozen sailors from Japan would offer a round of applause. The boat is today with Henry Morris in DE.

Rich Matt,
AMYA #004
F3 (!!!)

Thank you for the explications , Rich
It confirms what I was thinking.

The Facts where about 20 years ago.Not “actually” and not 5 years ago.
Would be interessing to know if allegations and publicity with wrong contents are allowed in the U.S.

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Eric

Would be interessing to know if allegations and publicity with wrong contents are allowed in the U.S.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Sure - all the time - keeps the politicians busy - as well as the lawyers - besides - if there were no two sides to a story, a lot of people would be out of a job [:D]

I guess you might have to read a bit more of the forum archives and then decide whom to believe and who not to believe. In the end, you can base your information from reliable sources - especially those who – like Rich Matt – are speaking from experience and give both the positive and the negative information as part of their answer.

I get suspicious when all you hear is the “good” stuff - and never anything bad! Unfortunately some who post don’t know that their answer is NOT the only right answer. And even worse, if you make an opinion or post YOUR view, some will consider it a personal attack.

I have to admit, that the photos Rich provided certainly “LOOK” like the spinnakers I am used to seeing!

Just to set the record straight, Eric,

Doug said that Rich’s spinnaker M was built “over twenty years ago” and “actually won some races in that class”. While I can’t confirm that Rich’s boat won any races, I would venture a guess that in order to place second at a regional championship regatta, it probably won a race or two.

Doug also stated that the M class rules were changed to outlaw spinnakers 5 years ago. I cannot confirm this either, but I just wanted to point out that the 5 year time frame was for the rule change, not when Rich built his boat.

I would also like to point out, that you asked for information about spinnakers and Doug provided info not only on his own designs but also about others who have done it. It seems to me that Doug was very helpful and certainly provided more information than just “advertising” for his own products. I’m not sure why you are so upset…

  • Will

Will Gorgen

I would have to agree with you there Will I think Doug has started to handle himslef better and has provide some good info and I for one was sceptical about what was going to be said by Doug. I think in looking at a few of dougs posts lately he seems to be controling what is said about his products and is not appearing as much like an informercial as he has in the past.

Any bit off topic lets get back to it

Cheers Blair

Here’s some photos of a gennaker on my F100.
This is the first I have fitted the complete rig on to the hull. The gennaker is only termporary attached for the photos, and looks as it needs to be trimmed abit.
The gennaker is stored in the retrevial tube on the swing rig which is positivity located by a small belt drive on a RMG 280D winch.
The hoist winch is a RMG 380D as is the sheet winch.
The sheet will run around the forestay but inside the gennnaker so will drop under the retrevial tube.

Download Attachment: [ Gennaker stored1.JPG](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/JohnB/200452442011_Gennaker stored1.JPG)

Download Attachment: [ gennaker half hoist.JPG](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/JohnB/200452441847_gennaker half hoist.JPG)

Download Attachment: [ Gennaker hoisted.JPG](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/JohnB/200452441939_Gennaker hoisted.JPG)

Some more photos

Download Attachment: Stern.JPG

Download Attachment: [ Stern quarter.JPG](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/JohnB/200452442614_Stern quarter.JPG)

Download Attachment: Leeward.JPG

How do you get the photos into the text on the post instead as an attachment???

Very interesting ,John!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing


It looks like you have a pretty workable mechanism for hoists/douses. Can you describe it a little for us? Do you use a “belly button” retrieval line? Do you gybe inside or outside? Have you had it out for a sail yet?

There are several things I see as potential problems for you:

  1. THe sail shape could use some refinement. You have a bit too much luff sag and not enough shape in the foot and midsections of the sail. At 90 to 120 degrees apparent wind angles, you are going to be stalled. You will need to add a lot more draft to the sail to make it effective. Add some telltales to the luff and you will see what I mean…

  2. Having the sheets led to your unirig boom is going to give you grief. You will want to be trimming and easing your unirig as you sail downwind. You apparent wind will be moving around a lot with the speed of that monster and you will need to trim in as the wind shifts forward. Becuase your sheets are led to the boom, you will also be trimming the gennaker when you trim in the rig. This is going to cause you to have to ease the gennaker sheets as you trim the main. This may not be as big a problem as I am making it out to be, but it could make sailing a bit harder than it needs to be.

  3. I think you are going to have a problem keeping you lazy sheet above the unirig boom. If it goes under the boom, then you will not be able to gybe. If you are gybing inside, this may not be a problem, but you have very little room between the jib tack and the gennaker tack to gybe through, so gybing to the inside may not be possible. You may want to consider having a short pole extend out to give yourself a bit more room to gybe the sail through.

Well, let us know how it sails. All in all I would say this is a great first step and with a little refinement will make a very fast downwind configuration.

  • Will

Will Gorgen

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by JohnB

How do you get the photos into the text on the post instead as an attachment???
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Image has to included with a URL address - either from a personal website, or saved under your photo album here and then use the URL to have image appear.

Use the little omage above - between the “Send eMail” and the # sign. Click on the icon of mountain and sun and you will be presented with a place to imbed your URL

Well I guess I finally solved the problem with the pictures (if these make it) sorry about the poor quality… something else that has to be worked upon, but this is a Half-Meter with a 120% genoa. It works like a charm, and as you can see it flies fairly well with no poles.

Download Attachment: [ HM1.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Larry Ludwig/200452504330_HM1.jpg)

Download Attachment: [ HM2.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Larry Ludwig/200452504349_HM2.jpg)

Download Attachment: [ HM3.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Larry Ludwig/200452504742_HM3.jpg)

I will start will the easy question.
No I have not gone sailing yet, about 2-3 weeks away for a quite splash when no one is around. Then it will be will only the jib & main canting keel and twin foils, just started to wire the servos up and program the transmitter. Hitec Eclipse 7 channel unit. A bit different from the 2 channel unit I have been sailing with(IOM).

  1. The sails were made 5 months ago before the final rig measurments where known so that why it looks out of size. That one was made as a reaching gennaker, theres another for flat running.

  2. The gennaker has indepentant sheeting system, for sail trim, but as the apparent wind moves forward the unirig and the gennaker can be swing forward to keep the same awa.
    The main and jib sheeting angle is nonadjustable at sea, just a bowise for the initial setup on shore.

  3. The gennaker will be setup for inside gybes, ie the lazy sheet runs between the forestay and the gennaker tack, theres about 220mm seperation between the tacks. I looked at protruding pole on the trial rigs, but decided on the swing rig, but as you said a 50 to 100 mm extending pole could be the answer.“ITS ONLY A PROTOTYPE” after all you can only do so much on AutoCAD and a sketch pad.

At this stage the retreival cord is attached to the centre of the sail ( equadistance from the corners), looked at mid luff but deceided against it but it makes lowering easiler as it does not matter what gybe the boat is on.

Being a engineer twixting is in the blood.

Thanks for the help.

Sorry you lost me, Iam one of those technofreaks, IT wis, everyone keeps their computers and me well seperated at work.
Whats a “url”
You have to be joking about a personal website[:-banghead] I cannot even change the icons!!!

Ohhh Boy [:D][:D][:D][:D] Let’s see…

URL is the “computer” address where a document or file is located on the Internet.If you are viewing this page/response, and using Microsoft Internet Explorer… Just above the RCSailing logo you will see a long white area with the word “Address” in front, followed by a long string of “gobbeldy-gook” (numbers, words, etc) This is the internet “address” for this specific page, photo, or file. I just copied what I am seeing and it looks like this:

Usually the http://www. something is the giveaway that it is an internet address.

Since it sounds [:D] like a personal web site is out of the question, let’s try using the resources provided by Chad here on this forum.

For you “JOHNB” Chad has already set up an album for your photos. If you go to the second line down (first white line) of the RCSAiling site page… you should see the words “Active memebrs”, “active polls”, “Resources”, “Members” etc. You want to click on “RESOURCES” which is a link and will take you to another page. On that page click on “PHOTO ALBUM” and it will open to your name (or you may need to search under the “J’s” to find it). Click on your name “JohnB” and it should open a new page that will allow you to upload/edit your photos. Basically, you will save your photo image from “your” computer to this area of the forum. Once saved, the photo will be (in reality) saved to a website (Chads) but each photo you save will have it’s own unique address as example above. (by the way - if the title/name of your photo has any spaces in the words - the space will appear as %20 within your web address)

OK - so hopefully you have managed to save your photo to your own photo album on Chad’s site.

If you go to your album, find the photo saved, and “Right click” on the photo. Go to bottom of list and select “Properties” and you will see this long string which looks similar to my above example. In my case, /as example/ I have a string that reads: http://www.rcsailing.net/uploads/Dick%20Lemke/cheetah-cotswolds%203.jpg (Whew !)

The above provides you to use this “address” to allow anyone with whom you share it to view this specific image.

If you look closely, you will be able to identify main points of the photo’s address…

  1. it is located at website: http://rcsailing.net
  2. It is in a file on that website called “<font color=“blue”>Uploads</font id=“blue”>”
  3. It is in a folder belonging to: “<font color=“blue”>Dick Lemke</font id=“blue”>” (note %20 is the space between first/last name)
  4. Finally, the photo itself is called: “<font color=“blue”>Cheetah-Costswolds 3</font id=“blue”>” (again the %20 inserted as spaces)
  5. and you can tell it is a photo by the format of the file identified by " <font color=“blue”>.jpg</font id=“blue”>"

Still with me?

OK - we can make this internet address a link that you can click on to go to the photo by selecting the little <u>icon</u> of the globe with chain link located in the format section. If you click on it, it will insert [ url] and [ /url] and you want to paste your internet address between the two so it looks like:
[ url]http://www.rcsailing.net/uploads/Dick%20Lemke/cheetah-cotswolds%203.jpg [ /url]
When you post your reply is will look like this: http://www.rcsailing.net/uploads/Dick%20Lemke/cheetah-cotswolds%203.jpgNote that the letters URL inside brackets are now gone!

Again, at those same format icons, there is one that is supposed to be a mountain, with a sun. (two to the right from the hyperlink icon) If you select this, instead of seeing [ url] - you should see [ img] and again, if you paste your internet address between the two - a photo should result when you post your reply that will be visible while reading your post/reply.

You should see: [ img]http://www.rcsailing.net/uploads/Dick%20Lemke/cheetah-cotswolds%203.jpg[ /img] which when posted will translate into your displayed photo as such:

I hope you are still with me. If not and you have just taken out the revolver to end your misery, I think if you send your photos to one of the moderators, they may be able to help post it -either within your post as a moderator edit… or by itself as a standalone post to which you can refer. Sure hope this didn’t chase you away, as photos always are more useful and easier to understand than descriptions.

Feel free to email me directly if this has just added to your list of questions.

>>> I urge anyone to modify these directions in case I have missed a step. << my apologies for any errors in the above.

You should become a Moderator…you are faster than me for helping people out!!

Many thanks…


_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _



Me? - Moderator? Nawwwww there would be some who would strongly disagree!

But if it doesn’t work for John, perhaps you can assist in posting his pics. [:-angel]


I really like your rig. Great ideas. I hope it works well for you.

I was driving home tonight thinking about it…

The thing that makes a swing rig work is that a small jib and big main cause the rig to weather vane. So YOU have a small jib and a big main. So far so good. But now you hang an enormous spinnaker way up forward. Oops. You need to think about how you are going to make that work. If you have not thought about it, perhaps you need to dedicate a channel to a preventer to pull the aft end of the spinnaker tube/sail trim arm around to leeward when the spinnaker is flying. Maybe someone else has some suggestions. It is definitely a show stopper if you think it is going to take care of itself.



I think the way that john has it configured from what i have seen should be alright. I know what you are saying in that the main won’t provide enough presure to stop the gennaker pushing the swing rigg toward the centreline. But he does not have a main sheet the sheeting for the mast is control at the mast so the mast is locked in place so the gennaker should not be able to swing the rig forward. Yes if it only had a mian sheet it would but if you look closly at the photos you won’t see one. If you go back in the archives you will see his mast rotation set up from photos from when John was building

cheers gappy


I hope its was easy drive home that you could contrate on the road, as I have made 2 trial rigs to sort the mechanics of the system.
I looked at the points you raised, so I decieded on a positive drive for the mast (unirig) rotation, I control the amount the mast rotation by the belt drive from the the servo, unlike the normal swing rig in marblehead yachts where there sheet the main boom in and out. I will rotate the unirig to the angle of sheeting required, as the jib & main booms sheeting angle are preset. IE on the wind the unirig will be set on the centreline of the the boat and bth jib & main booms are self tacking. Its only the reaching/running is when the mast is rotated for the aparent wind angle.

Have you had the boat out in much breeze? How does it go?