You’ve got a point there Dick, i know alot of fullsize sailors who also own models, and judging by the response I get from them when they see my models in action it think there may be a market amongst the ‘bigger boat’ crowd. Get 5 F48’s or Multiones at a big cat event and you might get some takers…
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
you know
i get alot of intrest just showing up. people looking at my boat (IOM) and them asking where they could get one. I tell them the price and where to get one. and with in a month i get 1 or 2 people at the pond. this out of maybe 10 or 15. I have only seen 1 multihull in 10 years of reggata sailing and that was last year. in barrie. ont. no this is not a slight against the guy or guy s that do have them. but it seems to me , that there are a whole lot more of us single hulled sailors out there. but on this forum. it seems to me that there are more post about mutlihulls. and more fighting among the multihulls guys.
doug you say you have a couple( i wont say how many YOU say you have) but i have never seen them. and from the post i have read. neither have the others. people have seen dicks multihull? so maybe he has more credence? although latly i wonder. if you want all the fighting to stop. and I do . why dont you show up to a reggata along with dick and dan . this would shut them up. and maybe move this poll to the multihull section ? not general discussion
cougar
long live the cup
Hi,
Doug’s statement of;–
“Please feel free to add any comments that you feel are appropriate.”
Ok, the Poll is showing responses from 12 Members, from a Membership of 254 total, as Dick says " not beating down the doors " are they?.
This must mean that most members are NOT at all interested in Multihulls, - -please note the spelling Doug.
Why then, are there a constant references to Multihulls from Doug?.
Surely this is evidence enough to call a halt to his bombardment of all other Members.
The figures show that most Members are NOT interested in Multihulls.
There are other Sites devoted to Multihulls, which is as it should be, this one seems to be for Monohulls, the figures speak for themselves.
I fully expect my comments will be deemed inappropriate, but so what!!.
John.
<center><font size=“4”>WELL !!!..I NEVER !!! </font id=“size4”>(well…maybe once or twice)</center>
Would love to respond to your post with some of Wis’s acronyms but takes to long to find them, and you probably already know what I would say !
<center>heh, heh, heh… <font size=“1”>(signed) </font id=“size1”>Dick … <font size=“1”>as in</font id=“size1”>…</center>
<center>
</center>
John & Cougar
You are correct.
Why muck around with 2 & 3 hulls when 1 does it so well!!!
Also the monohulls are always on a even keel because the Pb keeps us there!!!
[:-banghead]
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
These figures aren’t any where near exact so please don’t quote me. These figures are meant as an example.
A countries population:- 2 500 000
Number of people who sail:- 225 000
Number who sail r/c boats:- 1275
Number who sail r/c multihulls:-26
As I said these figures are not exact, but they give the idea of what
the r/c multihull is up against in whatever country.
What the class doesn’t need is people argueing about what design should be used, who has the best boat, or whether technology needs to be incorporated.
What the class does need is boats available to purchase. Boats on the water attracting attention, and people sailing those boats prepared to hand the controls to interested people to give them a go.
Over here the class started with two guys sailing regularly together. Another guy saw them and asked some questions. He built one and started sailing with them, and it grew that way.
It has to start somewhere, the first step is get boats on the water.
Dick, I am prepared to do my part to help the American cause. What I would like from you is the “normal” sailing conditions for your area as this will determine whether I build and ship over the old design or the new one.
All costs for this boat will be paid by me, but the boat will be for sale at the standard price depending on construction materials. Hopefully someone may buy the boat and I will then be able to recoup my expense.
Peter
I think a low cost high performance multihull would be a great addition to any fleet.
In the past in the US too many multihull promoters would sell anything to unsuspecting buyers-boats that couldn’t point,couldn’t tack and would capsize or pitchpole in the blink of an eye.
New designs and innovative thinking will hopefully lead to the availability of high performance relatively inexpensive multihulls-and Peters boats may well fit this bill-I trully hope so!
In the mean time development with the application of new technology to rc multihulls is resulting in a small rc multihull with a whole new “character”- one that is almost impossible to capsize and yet faster by a large margin than some traditional multihulls.
I believe that these new multihulls-including,hopefully Peter’s and Ian’s will eliminate the old wives tales born out of past attempts at multihull promotion in the US.
People should expect performance better than an equivalent sized monohull including excelent tacking, pointing and control; boats should be able to sail a triangular or windward leeward course in any conditions that monos sail in with minimum to zero fear of capsize/ pitchpole.
Multihulls that meet these criteria WILL capture the interest of all sailors!
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Peter _Birch
What I would like from you is the “normal” sailing conditions for your area as this will determine whether I build and ship over the old design or the new one.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Peter, I understand your thought, but the biggest problem is “where” the boat will end up. Southwest is light winds most of the time, West Coast has strong winds. Here in the mide-west, spring and fall are windy, but summers are light floaters. Northeast can be strong or very light as Roy has noted about Central Park in New York. Also winds will vary by season. The worst part is if one decides to travel to a regatta in anotehr part of the country. This is where multiple rigs can be a benefit. I would guess that during the summer I will use 1400 sq. maximum area but spring and fall, I might drop down to 800 sq. inches or less. There may be locations where even 800 might be a bit too big.
Add in the cost of freight for a long, but lightweight package, and I have always recommended that people purchase the platform, and buy the rig locally. It would save shipping costs on tall masts - especially overseas rates.
Ian Sammis who is selling the NIGHTMARE design kits has worked out a deal with SailsEtc. for a swing rig with sails for $250 US which sounds reasonable if buying Bantock’s stuff. But I see where the swing rig has gradually been disappearing from even Europe events. In light air some still use them, but lately photos seems to show boats with conventional rigs. Still there are some who swear by a swing rig. I haven’t used one, so cannot comment.
Again, a simple, slightly undercanvassed multihull, medium weight with a 2 channel radio setup is what most would prefer as a “starter” boat. They will either like them or hate them. I cannot control how they will react, but there is no way I can support a $2,000 boat as a “starter” boat regardless of ballast and foils.
And, for the people who truly are interested in a multihull - if you can’t afford to buy one, the only option is to build one. Again - a personal choice.
peter
like a friend of mine said
ahem brother
i was looking at getting cat? I like driving a hobie-cat. when i was on my honeymoon. but after seing what such a few mutlihull people say and do. and the cost of the hulls. why bother. i can get a realy fast IOM for the cost of a low end multihull. is it me . or is that realy wierd? sounds stupid to me
cougar
long live the cup
Cougar -
try this, figure the cost of your “really fast” IOM for hull and keel and rudder. Forget the electronics; forget the rig and sails. For sake of comparison, let’s call them a “wash” - same price whether a monohull or a multihull.
If you will agree, a “really fast” IOM might cost you $600 for the hull, keel and rudder? Do you agree?
If so, MULTIPLY the cost of the basic hull by three - this is $1800 - since it costs the same to purchase one or three hulls. Your IOM has 1 hull, the trimaran has 3 hulls!
You build your own boats, so do you really think the other two hulls will be included for free? Heck no, you will pay for the cost to design a slightly different hull design for the floats, and for a mold, and for the layup/fabrication of a float - TWICE!
You have the rig from your IOM. You are a boat builder. I can provide you with the plans.
Use your IOM rig on a MultiONE platform. It won’t cost you anything for rig and sails. If you can transfer your electronics between boats, that won’t cost you anything. If you build a foam hull and floats, covered with glass cloth, you should be able to do that for $25.00 a hull maximum. Now you have 3 hulls for a cost of $75.00 - and maybe another $75 for fittings, two carbon fiber cross beams @ about $15.00 each. You are saving on the cost of labor! The materials are not that critical. Tower Hobbies can supply you with an AM receiver, rudder servo and the 815BB arm winch for about $90.00 if you can’t swap electroncis.
The MultiONE Class was DESIGNED for this purpose - to let new skippers try out a multihull at minimum cost.
Now I suppose you and others can complain about the high cost of owning a competitive IOM (or a multihull). I have just provided you with a less expensive alternative. If you doubt this estimate, anyone can email me and I’lll have Jack Ronda reply with the costs he has in his MultiONE. And he did the rig and sails new - not from a 1 Meter monohull.
If you can’t shape foam, and cover it with glass cloth, then I suggest you come to the conclusion that you WILL pay someone else to do what you could easily do - especially if you have experience building a monohull with strip layup. THAT process is much more involved and time consuming than a glass over foam set of hulls.
I can also send you drawings to use if you want to build a “Box Section Trimaran”. Jim Lestos did one and it is viewable on the MultiONE web site using the link provided below under “multihulls”. That one is made out of balsa sheets and is even quicker/easier to build.
So, I guess my question would be, … if you can and have built a monohull, what is keeping you from building three skinny ones and tying them all together with two carbon fiber (or aluminum, or wood) cross beams? Seems like a challenge for you?
Dick, have you tried an IOM rig on a multihull? I have, and I would not do it again. It’s too high aspect, too heavy, too unresposive to gusts.
Hows the mutione getting on btw, have you had it on the water yet?
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
lol
dick you are right. i can build a single hull cheap and easy. doing 3 should not be that hard either. what you said about tower . guess what guys? . this is the radio . i use . omg cougar does not use a copmuter controled doo hickey that matches the freq. too .000000000005%.lol
dick mutli one i have never heard of. but if you can use a IOM rig on it. i am game. but before i jump into the deep end. i looked at the plans of a friends boat. called frieght train. he only had the 2 sheets of a 5 sheet plan set. there was stuff i have never heard of. you said the each hull was tiny compared to the others? does the outer hull have a toed in set? i think a mutlihull could be built for less than $1000. you use faom , for the hull right? and then epoxy the foam. i dont know how to join the outer hulls or even hook up the controls. but i will give it a try next year. my health come first.
that meens my IOM and my 2 IACC20 s that i promised people would see in the water.
i keep my word. even if it kills me. and this time it just might
guys remember this is a sport. and it should be fun. we make friends. now my health has gottnen bad, i have to take a break. finish the 3 boats i told people about. then i have to take a break. sorry
my family has to come first
your friend on the water
couagr
Matt -
I don’t have an IOM rig - thus I cannot say. The rig/sails designed and being built for the MultiONE are from “scratch” based on class rules. Any 1 Meter (or 36/600) should fit. I doubt the IOM rig would be much higher aspect than seeing a Marblehead rig on the F-48/Mini40 design - which I have seen.
As for my boat, I installed the transom on main hull last night, and sealed the wooden dowels in ends of carbon cross beams so I can attach “D” rings for rigging. The longer sections of side shroud “Y” attachment points were also completed last night, but stilll have the forestay and short wire sections yet to do. Actual shrouds from mast to float “Y” connectors will be dacron line with bowsies. The jib is done. The main needs corner patches, battens and eyelets and also reinforcements for attachment to mast. Jib and main booms are done, and am waiting on order for blocks. Once they arrive, I can mount the winch and run the sheets for jib and main. Most of the basic fabrication is done with exception of mainsail length. I made luff longer than needed, as I want to trim foot to length once mounted on mast with mast angle set. The T-Foil rudder is done and mounted, as is the daggerboard. Although I want to do an angled keel to help shed summer weeds, as well as a rudder without “T” foil. That rudder will have a bit more surface area for the light summer winds. “In Theory” (as Doug would say) the boat will be optimized for lite air summer sailing, but still have a replaceable rudder for days when the winds pick up.
I have also pulled out the F-48 and dusted off the hulls to resume work on it as well. Have another 815BB arm winch that will go into it for winch, and will have sheeting above deck on it as well.
In the meantime, I will be trying to locate an unused ODOM for possible use at the Nationals which will be up this way. I don’t really want to buy and build one for a one-time event. Hoping to locate and borrow one from someone not coming to the Nationals. I can’t get committment from local fleet if they intend to have an ODOM Class up here after the Nationals, and the next closest fleet is 4 hours away. If the local fleet would offer something other than Laser, CR914 and Fairwind fleets, I would make the ODOM (or IOM) an option, but we don’t have builders up here - just buyers, so US1M or 36/600 classes aren’t a go either, and neither is the IOM. Hopefully some local guys will buy some ODOM’s because I just have no interest in buying/racing a “plastic” kit boat (Epoch is an exception I would consider). In the meantime, work continues at a slow pace on the MultiONE. Kind have lost a lot of enthusiasm for the multihulls, since we spend more time trying to convince a new sailor “what” they should buy instead of concentrating on a simple goal of just getting new skippers period - regardless of their preferences.
To “whine” for a minute or two —
if we couldn’t get Doug to sell any boats in 4 years, and seeing that the IOM “officially” held their inaugral Nationals in 1999 I see a long road ahead. Frankly, I am tired of the B.S. that seems to follow any discussion of multihulls, and am tired of trying to educate people who have little interest in the “concept” of boats with more than one hull. On top of that we have a manufacturer that runs people off with his expensive alternatives, so nothing gets done. There is nothing to purchase. No building is going on by individuals, and little (if any) sales of kits or ready to sail boats. Alternatives presented from “Down Under” are criticized as “old style thinking”, and people who “are” self described builders can’t relate that there are three hulls for labor and why prices seem too high.
I’m tired - Where do you suggest we go next?
Are you racing with the members of the BMMA? Curious to see how your boat is performing against the “norm” and experiecned class boats that don’t use foils or moving ballast.
I have not raced with the BMMA guys yet, though I hope to get to one of their events this summer, probally with the multione (maby even with a new one) just to meet the guys and show them my boat. I will race with them but I doubt my boat will stand a chance against the mini 40’s unless the wind is really strong.
I hope to be able to produce some multiones if there is an interest in them, based on my twin rigger. Thease boats I hope will be relatively cheap, as althoug they will be all carbon the design is very simple with a minimum of fittinigs and I can’t claim to have spent megabucks on development, or have anywish to make much of a profit. It will have no foils barr a T-foil on the rudder for stronger winds. Nore will it have moveable ballast.
I hope to build up a local fleet based on the interest I have got from local sailors of both the sit on and r/c kinds, and hopefully get some in other places too!
Also I’m going to do some filmaking! Of both Cat’s and canting keel boats.
I will have a whole load of time over the summer in which to do this, as I will be more or less free barring a part time job and some full size sailing. Dont expect anything much for 2 months, got exams to worrry about, after that look out for a masive increase in posts with pic’s from my direction…
But, Someone needs to come up with a cheap F48/mini40 that works, is exciting and simple. We have alot of experience on here, and we need to work together on this one. I said the same thing way back if you remember, look in the multion archives. It needs to happen.
Luff 'em & leave 'em.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by cougar
lol
dick you are right. i can build a single hull cheap and easy. doing 3 should not be that hard either. <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Cougar - sorry - I missed your post. Got some epoxy going off so will get back to you regarding your post, your views, my views and …
Dick
I think Multi hull are great. I just wish they the price tag was in line with my thin wallet. 20 years ago I sail a Fiar (Corsair ) 24 trimaran day sailer. I love the speed and level sailing over my mono hull. I havent sail a full size boat in years. I just cant aford it. Family comes first. Like the real boat, I cant aford the price of the muilt r/c. My wallet need to keep the price under $200. My building skills are not the best so I been looking for ARF kit, like the grupper dragon fly, which is no longer produce.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Matthew Lingley
Dick, have you tried an IOM rig on a multihull? I have, and I would not do it again. It’s too high aspect, too heavy, too unresposive to gusts.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Matthew - I ran some numbers, and excluding the quarter and half measurements, strictly using the simple triangle of jib and main, I am coming up with 800 sq. inches (approx) of sail area for the IOM “A” rig. This is also a “SPORTSMANS” class MultiONE (entry level) of 800 sq. inches and the MultiONE also has a limit of 1100 sq. inches for the “Open” category MultiONE.
So if someone were to use an “A” rig (or defintely a “B” rig) from an IOM their sail area probably would be legal on a MultiONE.
Seeing that Doug was involved in the writing of the rules, there seems to be two possibilities …
or…
Now I’m not making any accusations here, only pointing out that the IOM rig/sail seems to fall within the class limits for the MultiONE and since even greater sail area was written into those rules, one would wonder why an experiecned designer and multihull builder wouldn’t have called it to the attention of others that the sail area seemed extreme?
If the IOM rig truly was too much sail and too high aspect ratio in your experience on a multihull, I am having grave doubts about an even bigger allowed area of 1100 sq. inches on my boat - even though the guys that wrote the rules allow it.
Do I second guess the “expert” and go smaller - or do I stay with the MultiONE design sail area but without foils and re-learn my swimming skills. I’m sure one answer will be to equip my boat with foils and not worry about capsize! However, if I wanted a “foiler” … !!
Hmmm - makes me wonder now !
The multiONE Class Secretary Kris Harig set thefinal multiONE sail area at 1100 sq. in. and the “Sportsman” limit at 800; I had recommended 1000 at top end.
Both the F48 and multiONE could carry the “A” rigs in higher winds with movable ballast and or using that bastion of unlimited stability:FOILS! Foils are likely to prove the best way to enjoy a small multihull because of the auomatic stability control of a Bradfield or Ketterman foiler which makes sailing in the strongest wind not only possible but enjoyable even for a beginner.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Doug,
Can you post something, without talking about foils and/or movable ballast???
Wis
if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!