Write 'em up and send 'em in to ISAF-RSD oranization for consideration and recommendation.
Sailing competitively one often comes across situation where the rights and obligations become vague. I had one such situation in match racing where my opponent called a penalty and being uncertain of the situation I took the penalty, but on reading the rules I’m still unsure of the situation and would like other opinions.
I have drawn up stretch showing sequence of the incident
1. It was an upwind leg coming to windward mark with both boats on port tack and I was (yellow boat) behind 4-5 boat lengths as my opponent (red boat) was rounding the mark wide.
2. Coming to the mark the red boat appeared to have stalled while gybing and with inside gap and being leeward and gybing from port tack I was on the inside and thought the red boat had to give me mark room.
3.After gybing the mark we both were set for starboard run down wind, where I had established an overlap at the mark, but I thought under rules of sailing I was entitled to “mark room” until we were clear of the mark, when the red boat would then have luffing rights but he called a penalty on me when I had no choice, either touch the mark (automatic penalty) or contact the red boat (which happened) and he called a penalty on me which I took … but was I really in the wrong
As reference you can see the incident in this vid, where what I have described above begins at 2 minutes 30 seconds into the vid. I would appreciate opinions of this incident based on the rules ?
Cheers Alan.
IMO…
you had zero right at the mark. you were not entitles to mark room. he was inside the zone, you were not. overlap cannot be established inside the zone… So you should have gone wide around him to eliminate the chance of any foul.
But you chose to dive inside between the other boat and the mark. a very high risk move sicne you run the risk of touching the mark or touching the other boat… All the other skipper has to do is say that you made contact, or that he had to alter course. he did not have to change tack when rounding the mark…
So
You hit the mark, rules violation/
You did not have inside overlap rights, but you took them, Rules Violation
You tacked to starboard and did not give room for the other boat to keep clear. Rules violation
You were overtaking vessel. and did not keep clear Rules violation
if you had gone wide, you would have been able to blanket his sails when you passed his stern further slowing him down, you then could have gybed to stbd, while he was still on port, and you would have been on the leeward side, you would have been able to control the down wind leg… Potentially you could have taken the starboard tack out to the right side of the course then as you neared the mark gybe back to port, to try to accelerate away and break any inside overlap so you be able to round the mark with out interference.
Another option would have been to pass his stern. since he is was stalled you could have stayed on port with your speed, You could have separated from him, head out to the left side of course, and then be able to come in to next the mark on Starboard.
It is very enticing when someone rounds the mark and leaves a gap. and there are times when you could get away with it but in most cases, the opposing skipper can easily slam the door shut in which case you would hit the mark, AND foul the other boat. A double whammy…
Hi Kiwi,
Blue was clear ahead when SHE reached the zone. She is allowed mark room to sail to the mark. As clear astern, you enter the space between Blue and the mark at your own risk. So you are in the wrong.
After both boats gybe onto stbd, you are weather boat and required to keep clear, so again you are in the wrong.
Read R 18 again for the first condition, and R 11 for the second.
John
Thanks Marc & John for your feedback, the point I had missed was an the overlap was not established going into the zone, only happened within it, so I had no rights :scared: lesson now imbedded in that very small place between my ears.
Marc, thank you for the other options you outlined, all very good on the water smarts I need to work on.
Still getting used to sailing RC from distance compared to actually sitting in the boat … I get little carried with RC looking from the outside sometimes, I see a gap and jump in the moment, gotta slow down the fingers to catch up the old grey matter :lol:
Cheers Alan :zbeer:
Alan, I sailed dingies in college and yes it is much harder to sail rc boats since you are not on the boat. Also when you made you hard turn to go between the boat and th emark, you scrubbed off all your speed. which is what happend to the other boat. hard turn, boat slows. a gradual turn, inlight air that takes you further around, is better to keep you momentum up… especially on the heavier boats…
and thing do happen faster on the RC boats. the grey mnatter needs to be firing on 8 cylinders. I wish I could think as fast as well. Its easy to be an internet sailor…
Not to add insult to injury, but you never completed your penalty turn. You went in on starboard and came out on port. You needed a gybe to complete it.
I had to re-read this one because I don’t think we ever got to the real problem of this tack rule thing, which is how do you determine which side is the windward side? AFAIK, the definition says it’s the side that the wind is on, but if you don’t have a smokepot, how do you tell from the shore? Please don’t mention the main boom…
Greg you are right man! the main boom did not come across the boats centre line after the tack :scared:
Tomohawk the windward side is pretty clear to me and until there is a clearer definitiion, I will stick with the main boom as best visual indicator as just proven in my incomplete penalty turn :lol:
Cheers Alan
Sorry if this is unsatisfying, but the official definition is:
“Tack, Starboard or Port - A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side.”
ISAF
RACING RULES OF SAILING
2009 - 2012
international sailing federation
www.sailing .org
DEFINITIONS
While this is correct, you also need to read the definition for windward and leeward. Note that it has two parts, depending upon whether you are going up wind or down wind.
John
Leeward and Windward A boat’s leeward side is the side that is or, when
she is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the
lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail
lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack
overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The
other is the windward boat.
So, pertaining to model yachts, how do you determine which side is the windward side?
Please don’t quote the rulebook (again.)
It is just the same as for full sized boats.
The simplest generality is that the leeward side is the side that the boom is sitting, and the other side is the windward side.
John
Hi Friends:
Plese take a look to this resolution ISAF cases. (its the opposite to tha case in discuss)
CASE 63
Rule 18.2(b), Mark-Room: Giving Mark-Room
Rule 18.5(b), Mark-Room: Exoneration
Definitions, Mark-Room
At a mark, when room is made available to a boat that is not
entitled to it, she may, at her own risk, take advantage of the
room.
Summary of the Facts
Two boats, A and B, broad reaching and about to round the leeward mark,
were overlapped with B outside. C was further astern. A passed the mark
about one hull length to leeward, as did B, leaving ample room for C to
round the mark inside them. B, because of her position outside A, was
unable to deny room to C, and at no time during the incident sailed a
course that would have resulted in a collision with C. No contact occurred.
B protested C.
140
The protest committee dismissed B’s protest stating that C did not break
any rule when she sailed between B and the mark and C did not cause B to
take avoiding action or prevent B from luffing. B appealed on the grounds
that C’s action prevented her from executing her intended manoeuvre,
which had been to slow down by bearing away and then to harden up
across A’s transom, thereby denying room to C to pass inside.
Decision
B’s appeal is dismissed. When B entered the zone she was clear ahead of
C, so rule 18.2(b) required C to give B mark-room. Rule 12 (and later rule
11) also required C to keep clear of B. B was not required to give C mark-
room. However, B, because she could not prevent it, allowed C room to
sail between her and the mark and the protest committee found that she
was not in a position to do otherwise. When C sailed between B and the
mark C broke no rule.
When a boat voluntarily or unintentionally makes room at a mark
available to another that has no rights to such room, the other boat may
take advantage, at her own risk, of the room. The risk she takes is that the
boat entitled to mark-room may be able to close the gap between her and
the mark while sailing her proper course. In that case, the boat entitled to
mark-room will be exonerated if she breaks a rule of Section A or rule 15
or 16 (see rule 18.5(b)), and only rule 14 will inhibit her if she makes a
rapid and aggressive attempt to close the gap between herself and the
mark.
Hi Mark, I think that you misunderstand this ruling. It says exactly what we told you. The boat astern enters the space ‘at her own risk’ ie the risk of committing a foul. If the boat entitled to mark room is able to close the door, and does so, then the trailing boat is in trouble. The crux of this case and ruling was that the outside boat could not close the gap on C, but protested anyway. So the protest was dismissed.
Read again the last two paragraphs of the appeals ruling.
However, B, because she could not prevent it, allowed C room to
sail between her and the mark and the protest committee found that she
was not in a position to do otherwise. When C sailed between B and the
mark C broke no rule.
When a boat voluntarily or unintentionally makes room at a mark
available to another that has no rights to such room, the other boat may
take advantage, at her own risk, of the room. The risk she takes is that the
boat entitled to mark-room may be able to close the gap between her and
the mark while sailing her proper course.
John
TomohHawk-
the definition for “Windward” for r/c boats is identical to that of full size boats. If someone doesn’t know or can’t tell which side the wind is coming from - perhaps they need to spend a bit more time reading and understanding points of sailing (and rules) before they head out to a race course. Of course basic sailing also assumes one knows where the wind is blowing from when discussing those points of sailing. As for quoting the rulebook (which you seem to not like) - I would offer that is where one finds the RULES and their definitions… not by an opinion on a discussion forum which can become an argument.
Visit the library, and grab a few books on basic sailing and your question should be answered… just as it has already been done here.
Sail honest - and with knowledge. [wink]
Dick
This question will never be answered to any degree of certainty, because no one will look at it logically, and with certainty. People only quote rules, which is fine to start with.
Yes, I have several of the best basic sailing books. They all say the same thing people are Saying here,which doesn’t relate to model yachting.
Hi Tom:
In the RRS ISAF there is an appendix E. dedicated only for RC sailing.
APPENDIX E
RADIO-CONTROLLED BOAT RACING
RULES
Races for radio-controlled boats shall be sailed under The Racing
Rules of Sailing as changed by this appendix.
There are no difference in the rules part 2.
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20092012with2010changes-[8222].pdf
cheers
how does it not relate… the main difference is the location of the skipper . in the case of model boats, the skipper is not on the boat.
from the aspect of model yachts. to help determine windward, leeward, port/starboard, ect… we can look at wich way the boat is heeling… if the winds are high enough the mast will generally lean to the leeward side.
The boom will generally fall to the leeward side. These two items help a skipper on the shore determine which tack the boat is on… if the wind is consistent enough seeing which way the boat is pointed is also a method used… if you have a wind indicator on your mast…
I know on all my boats, if the boom is on the port side,and the boat is not damaged, and the boom is not flopping from port to starboard based on light air, and wave action, I would take that observation with me to the committee room as determining which tack I was on while I was controlling my boat from the shore.
Tom, we have all told you how we determine with tack we are on. what methods do you use? What “logical” given the current rules.
What, EXACTLY, is your question? Are you looking for rules clarity or are you complaining that it is difficult to see what is happening on the boat because you are on shore?