No one is arguing about the upwind tack. The definition is clear. The leeward side is the side away from the wind.
The exception is for dead downwind or by the lee. Then, as you say, the side that your boom is on determines which tack. If you are rolling from side to side, such that the boom crosses and recrosses, just means that your tack is changing with each roll too. But at each point in time, you are on one tack or the other, based on which side the boom is - but only downwind.
There is nothing wrong with this part of the rules. . .
The definition of windard and lee is not being disputed by anyone. The problem is that the definition of UPWIND TACK is not defined, and people keep quoting the defnition of downwind tack, and using that, which is wrong.
The original question was how to determine your tack on the upwind, and it’s going to be up to US radio-sailors.
Why?
The ISAF determines the RRS. If they change the definition of (upwind) tack to the ROT many radio sailors use, it will totally upset the big boat sailors because it will cause a big upset in the RRS for them. So the ISAF will NOT be defining (upwind) tack just for us. We will have to figure out a way to add it to Appendix E without it being any kind of basic definition, which it needs to be.
We don’t need a separate definition for upwind tack. It is there already. When sailing (up wind or down), you are on a tack unless you are in the act of tacking or gybing. Which tack is determined by the windward side. That covers everything. The definition then goes on to give a specail case for dead downwind and by the lee.
You are still on a tack while luffing up to head to wind. Once you have past head to wind you are no longer on a tack, you are tacking. You continue to be tacking until you have reached a close hauled course. So the current rules cover the entire 360 degree spectrum.
I don’t see what is missing.
There is no conflict with what you call the ROT. I think your ROT is that you are on the tack opposite to which side the boom is on. That is generally correct, but the definition does not describe it that way, except for downwind. If you had a weird situation where you were on a beat but your boom somehow stuck on the wrong side, then the ROT would be incorrect.
BTW- it’s not MY rule of thumb. Others are using it or insisting on using it. I prefer the proper definitions.
We are in agreement on the downwind definition oftack, but something is missing for the upwind definition. The definition of windward & leeward is fine, but now people are hooked on the ROT and using it as an official definition.
I think I see what the problem is. There are two criteria that a rule or definition must adhere to (IMHO). One is whether it is unambiguous. This has to do with how it is worded. In my view, the RRS wording satisfies this critera. The second is whether it is decidable in real-world circumstances. The RRS definition of what tack you are on in a beat is, again in my view, problematic for radio sailing because the skippers are outside their boats and cannot directly sense the true wind “seen” by their boat at any given instant. They are therefore forced to fall back to something they can observe directly, which is the position of the main boom.
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They’re not clinging to a misguided definition of tack. They know the upwind tack is determined by the wind direction relative to the boat. What they’re clinging to, as pointed out several times, is the evidence available to them. We usually can’t see air. We can see sail position.
The rest of us seem to understand what "A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side. " means. We don’t see where it’s lacking. Perhaps a ruling on a specific situation would help. Claiming that the term tack is undefined isn’t getting you anywhere in this discussion.
Why? Are the port and starboard sides of the boat particularly difficult to identify on an r/c boat? The existing definition looks good to me.
The closest thing to a problem that I can think of would be a case where both boats are still moving but the wind stopped. No wind. And even in that case, each boat would be ruled as being on the same tack as before the wind died because they hadn’t crossed head to wind.
TomoHawk, can you make up a situation, write a description of the incident (like a protest form) and a diagram. Then perhaps we can see what you feel is deficient.
The definitions of Port and starboard are not the issue. The problem is and always was that people sailing r/c boats think the direction main boom is pointing is what determines what tack the boat is on. that is only a rule of thumb and not an official definition.
based on the the way the sail is filled the apparent wind is coming over the stbd side. so the boat is on a stbd tack even with theboom on the stbd side of the boat. but that event will not happen on remote control boats, unless the boat is broken. yes it breaks the ROT but like all ROT’s its not 100% but its a quick and dirty way from X number of yards away of telling which tack a boat is on… another ROt is if the boat is healing port, its on a stdb tack. again on model yachts is a quick visual method of determining your tack. yes I know that you can be on a stbd tack and be heeling to stbd in large boats, dinghies ect as I’ve done it… again it wont happen in model yach unless you have movable ballast…which many do not., or your are broken…
With this information alone, starboard tack. As Marc points out, the boat appears to have a jammed gooseneck. Or the boom is moving to the port side. Or the wind is stopped or very light and the sail is popped over due to curvature in the sail material. All the “or” judgments would require additional information.
In very light conditions, I might rule this port tack. In my experience, the boom swings before the sail material pops over to the correct side. I often sheet out and haul in quickly to shape the sail in light air. I can only do this once or I risk violating different rules.
Then the issue is one of training and not of the rules. While it is fine to have an ROT for beginners and for simplification, the ROT is not the rule (or in this case, the definition). When it comes to a protest hearing, the committee will use the rule book and not the ROT. If the committee, out of ignorance of the RRS, used the ROT as a result produced an incorrect decision, then use the appeal process. I can assuse you that the appeals committee will use the rules and not an ROT.
When I do rules seminars for beginners, I use the ROT simplified versions, BUT stress that these are ROT to aid learning, and are NOT the full rule.
Just because some sailors are confusing ROT and RRS, is not the reason to propose rule changes.
This question cannot be answered as the wind arrow is missing.
An answer can be inferred given the inverted shape of the sail. That suggest that the wind is coming from the starbord side and is on or forward of the beam. If so, then the boat is on STBD, according to the definitions of ‘Tack’ and ‘Windward/Leeward’.
The location of the boom, if NOT on a dead run, or by the lee, is not relevant.
The wind arrow is irrelevant and was purposely left out, to mimick that you can’t ‘see’ what the boat is getting from shore, as we all say.
The sail and boom were drawn as-is on purpose to show the two things Marc said; by the sail shape, it looks like it’s on stbd tack, but if you ask those people who only look at the boom, it’s on port tack. You and I would prefer the wind arrow to show stbd tack, but those other people would then be confused because the wind arrow and the boom angle would be contradictory, because such misinformed people insist on using the boom angle rule-of-thumb as THE rule.
The same situation (as you have drawn) can be mimicked on a large boat or a small one if set up to do it.
It is called windward traveller sheeting and can be effective in light air or when trying to “pinch” to windward. Sheet to windward, move crew to leeward, and tilt/heel of boat helps fill sail to provide fullness when wind is light. Wind is still over the starboard side of the boat and until the hull crosses head to wind it will be on starboard tack. - again using only what you have drawn. I agree with observations by Don and Mark and if in disagreement with someone simply pull out the rulle book and ask them to show you the rule that supports their position. Obviously if they can’t find it then there is no such rule, regardless of what they were “told”.
Dick
misinformed people insist on using the boom angle rule-of-thumb as THE rule
Looks like you have some educational opportunities ahead of you.
The same thing can be done by just pushing the boom out, and is used to back the boat if you get good at it. I noticed it at the 2000 AC regatta. Creating the situation drawn was just to point out the problem, and I would really be surprised if it ever did happen for real (on a model.)
Like I have been saying, if we figure out a reasonable way to use the rules and definitions to figure this out, it should definitely go into Appendix E of the ISAF RRS.
