Yes, the keel would attach on the flat surface, might be hard to see in this pic. I permanently attached them, although the removeable type was preferred back in the 1980’s when everyone was driving little cars. I am SO happy with the current favored status of SUV’s since everyone has one, and they can transport larger models with ease.
I ask Don from Loyalhanna Dockyard in the forum on Loyalhanna Dockyard website. What is the status of the sailboat line from Pop-up Manuacturing?
Here is his reply to my question.
Verry little progress to date as we are still cleaning up the plans service. Hope to begin work in ernest this summer.
Don"
I know it sux when someone rip off a design and make a mold. What I would like to know is who orginally produce a RC model of “Stars and Strips” and “Aussie II” with a lenght about 65 inches and is that person still producing the model?
I own the moulds to the original Australia II class yacht. And yes, I’m still building them.
I think (not sure) that Reynolds/Vortex produce a really big version of the 12 Meter boats. Would have been circa 1983-197 or so. I have a sales brochure around here, but can’t lay my hands on it right now. I know there also was a Dragon Class replica as well.
This is the boat I’mbuilding for me.
I wanted to get a Stars & Stripes so they could race each other.
I guess I might have to wait a while!!
Tranth, is your Australia II from the same mould as the " Nautic 12" hulls that are being produced in NZ?
If not, do you know of any differences?
Just curious.:magnify:
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The Nautic 12 is a rip off of this hull which is built from the original Mini Mariner moulds that I now own. (I could go into the dealings that lead to this situation but feel a public forum is not the place) Notice that there is a deck moulding on the original boats (showing the cockpit, foredeck hatches etc)but since the Nautic 12 only had a hull to copy (a second hand junked hull at that) they just have a flat deck. There may be other differences but I’m really just interested in my boats and not what Rusty or Steve Crewes are up to.
Tranth,
That is one gorgeous looking model of Aussie II. I like the fact that your model includes deck features like a cockpit. I seam to me that to many builders concentrate on the hull and forget about the deck features when creating a scale boat. I am curious to see photos of your Star and Stripes. I am not a builder, I rather be out sailing. One day when I can afford to purchase a model like your I will have to kept you in mind.
Tranth and everyone.
I have had some concern expressed by my friend Steve Crewes regarding comments posted in this thread.:blindfold
As some of you will know Steve is on the naughty boy list so unable to defend himself here.:tapedshut
I am not interested in starting, or being involved in, a sh*t fight over someone elses comments so I will simply post the comments as requested.
No further correspondence will be entered into on this subject.
If Tranth or anybody else has comments that they wish to make then they should be addressed directly to the party concerned.:boxing:
I remember reading that Steve was getting all excited about his new “boat”…thought it was one of “them”
My guess is that there might be a couple of builders - depending on the country. Back in 1980’s (before the web) information (and ideas) didn’t get exchanged as fast as today. So it might depend on what year the boat appeared and where. I have a feeling this same discussion may soon take place regarding the IACC style of boats - with some being built in Europe and even in Canada (Cougar). I would certainly hope similar issues and bad feelings don’t arise when boats called “IACC” start becoming prevalent.
It is one thing to “splash” (steal/make a mould) from someone else’s hull (and hard work) whereas, anyone can build a hull that “looks like” a big boat, but add their own variation of the design, sizes and dimensions. Hopefully builders will respect the work of others and either pay a royalty if they are using an existing hull for a plug, or acknowledge and obtain rights to build from the original designer and/or builder. If you would never have the desire to use one of Bantock’s boats for a plug, why would you use someone elses?
I know we have had this discussion before - (and probably will again) - but with new readers and new “wannabe builders” I think it bears repeating. The reason I am repeating it, is because some alegations of folks making illegal copies from existing hulls.
As for Pop-Up ownership, it is my understanding the moulds, plans, parts were legally sold - so just because the new owner decides NOT to go into production - that is no reason for someone else to use an existing hull to create their own mould. Personally, I would like to see buyers asking builders to show photos of the plug before closing the sale. If they can’t show the plug, then the mould might be suspect - with some practical execptions, of course.
OK - I’m off the soapbox - flame away !
I hate been drawn into slanging matches like this so here is my final post on the topic of Nautic 12 vs Aussie II moulds.
Posted by Steve Crewes
G’day Ian , I hear my name is being mentioned on the Nautic 12 discussion. Would you mind clearing up a few facts and they are :
(1) I bought the boat off Kiwi Jack in good faith.
(2)I also told him why I was buying it . -
(3)At that stage Tranth was not a manufacturer and up till this date 21/4 is still not.
(4)Tranth did not in actual fact buy the moulds off Kiwi Jack.
(5)If the boat I bought was not off those moulds as told to me then I want my money back.
(6)Nautic 12 (Tri Models) CHOSE not to build them with the scale decks.
(7)I think they made the right choice.
(8) I also want you to say that I am not a part of Nautic 12 class association and I don’t sail that class and in fact I don’t own one.
Steve.
My reply
(1) Agreed
(2) To copy???
(3) Completely wrong. I currently have build 5 boats for customers and the 6th boat (mine) is just out of the mould
(4) Not that this has any bearing on anything or is anyones business but I had an arrangemant to provide a number of complete hulls for Jack in exchange for ownership of the moulds. I fulfilled my side of this arrangement and now own the moulds
(5) So you admit that the Nautic 12 is a rip off from my mould.
(6) Well they didnt have one to copy did they?
(7) Others disagree
(8) So the fox left the chicken coup.
I would have loved to have a NZ operation building boats to race against the Aussie II boats built here and would have helped any way I could to get an international “series” going.
Frankly, the sneaky, shady dealings that have lead to the current situation are completely un-necessary and very disappointing.
The bottom line is I build these boats because I love the 12 metre class yacht. I have sailed EC12s and build various other models of my favourite boats.
I’m not worrying about all this shady, unfortunte business. The only thing you get from looking back is a sore neck and I’ve got boats to build and sail and something quite new and exciting on the drawing board.
That is all I have to say.
Tranth
Hey Dick,
those are all good thoughts… and I wish that they would hold true… but the bottom line is Money talks, and BS walks… and “that’s what makes the world spin on it’s poles says I”
No one is ever going to pay roylaties, period. As with water, they will take the path of least resistance. 2 years back I needed some drawings, and when I approached someone that had them… (but did not DRAW them, nor own the rights to them… simply had them and was capable of reproducing them) he wanted roylaties for every boat I made from the molds I made from the drawings I got from him. Yeah… right. Go to the library, do the research, and find them somewhere else.
They will produce and take their lumps, or most likely go another path. The good news is, that since the internet has brought out so much information, and in image form as well… this does not seem to be the problem that it once was. Where it is easy to get crosswise with this is when producing a scale model of a specific boat. In theory, if done in the same scale… and both parties do a good job… then the finished product is going to be quite similar. Then when pictures start appearing, it can be confused as to the heritage of the mold/plug.
Fortunately the recognized OD classes require a good inspection process of the whole magilla before allowing someone to produce for the class, and be sanctioned as such.
Then too, is the problem of cost involved if someone does copy and splash a mold. You can’t prove it, and even if you could… take it from me… the amount of money it takes to litigate, compared to what you make producing fiberglass boats… there is just no way. Then after all that, IF you could prove it, AND you won, you could not even hope to recover anything because the guy that copied you is probably even worse off financially.
So, probably the best thing is just what happens here on a daily basis… people communicating and sharing information and pictures, will keep piracy down to a minimum, probably local level. It is one of the better reasons for Class Associations and membership therein.
I really can’t think of a boat being copied successfully, that did anyone any good in the last 10 years, or even longer. Of course, it takes so much more time and money to copy one… that unless you are going to make some more there is no point in going through the mold/build process… it’s easier just to buy one.
imagine the Chinese beginning to “make” boats…they don’t know the meaning of copyright…
or Mr. A “MASS-producing” an IOM called Vankish!! or any other available plan…though they could begin to make multis :party:
Not too funny…
Laurent - funny you should mention “Multis” - since we did have a fellow from New Zealand that “splashed” a multi in carbon. First, his quality control was found to suffer from way too numerous “pin holes” and secondly, he kept a few of the checks sent to him from guys wanting to purchase, without shipping their boat. (Note - I said New Zealand, NOT Austria).
I guess I collect and send royalties to a UK multihull designer/sailor, in hopes of securing his next championship boat lines - which, while only a $10.00 charge, ensures my desire to treat him fairly and offer a small amount for his efforts (and cooperation) in making new plans available. Sure it bumps a plan set up to the $30.00 range - but for a boat worth $1500 - $2000 it seems rather negligible.
Larrry - while you may be correct in the impossibility of trying to police a “splasher” - I agree it really is up to the person(s) buying the product. Doesn’t say much for them, and not sure I would want to share the water with them - at any time. (My personal view). I think for the good of the hobby it would be incumbent on all of us to make it known that those who “steal” aren’t tolerated. That part “IS” possible! :dissappro :headache:
as for this post from ian. steve is on the 'BAD GUY LIST" for a reason. most of his posts were inflamorty. and as you can see. it works. the nautical 12 may have been a rip off. I dont know. I personaly have had dealing with TRANTH. and i know he has been in bussiness for over 3 years. so what steve told you was WRONG, as asual. I asked troy for a favour. and i got it. all he asked was if i pass the drawings along. he gets a bit of the money. this is a bussiness. now I am not just saying that to back up a member. this is what happend. i will back up anybody that does not cause trouble. and is usefull. people like dick lemke. larry ludwig, dan sherman( i cant beleive i said that), and even some of the kiwis and aussies. everybody here has my surport. and backing untill they start something. tranth. dont let something petty get to you.
i was talking to a good friend. about the very idea of ripping somebody design off. and he did spread some new light on it. let say somebody wants to rip off a vanqish. ok you somehow buy a used hull. ( sorry dan) lets say you pay $400 for it. fair price. now we all know it will be dinged and srcacth. all these need to be fixed. so add another $50 to is. now we have a plug. i use polyester resin and heavy cloth my molds cost me around $300 in materail. but you also have to buy pva, and mold release wax. so right now. we are looking at just under a THOUSAND DOLLARS. and you cannot sell one as a sherman yacth. dan would rasie hell
it is easier to design you own just think aftre you have the mold. you still have to pull a part. ripping off of other people design just doesnt make sense
cougar
Coug says…
“…and even some of the kiwis and aussies”
Gee thanks Cougar. It almost sounds as if it was a struggle to include us on the list! I’m a Kiwi - even if exiled to the United States. But I’m not offended.
Nah - just kidding. We know what you mean (atleast as far as we ever know what you mean). 
I guess there is rip-off and rip-off
-
you see a nice hull you would love to have, spend some time taking pics, measuring aso…then you make yourself a nice hull…rip-off? yes, but it’s for yourself…not much harm done…
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same, but you then decide to start a “business”…WRONG!
a look at past posts
Ok gentlemen I’m not going to lock this thread (unless I have to), but I’m going to ask that this thread stop now. I can’t see this thread going anywhere but downhill.