The good news is I have added a table of IOM stats such as beam, dist to fin. The bad news is most of the figures need to be filled in.
Additionaly more good news and bad news. Anders Wallin thinks it is a pretty good idea like sliced bread and sent me some (well on a forum) figures for his Cockatoo. The bad news, sigh, is some designers may not like their boats stats known even after selling them to the public.
A secret prototype or one still on the drawing board (remember them) I could go along with. I don’t know if or how the original spirit of IOM would view the matter, if at all.
So what would be the decent thing to do? Publish and be damned or put “DIP” - as in Designers Intellectual Property - where, say, 695mm would normally go?
Publish and be damned, a few numbers do not constitute a design so I dont think you cold get in trouble (barring pi**ing off the designer, but if his that attitude why worry anyway).
This has been talked about on other boards, but let me throw in a few very relevant points.
First, most people who design and produce model boats do it out of passion, not for great financial gain. Coming up with a successful design is hard work that doesn’t pay very well.
Second, the information that Nick wants to publish was “created” by the various boats’ designers not by Nick. And, the information Nick wants to post can be used by others to copy boats or to give someone an inside edge on design.
Third, this information the Nick wants to put on his websight is in fact not rightfully his to disclose to the public. The best example to explain this --if I write a mystery novel and sell it in a bookstore it doesnt’ give Nick or anyone else the right to put up a plot summary of my book on a website and give away the trick ending.
Fourth, and most important, r/c sailing is a very small community. The right thing to do if you want to put out information on someone else’s design is to ask for permission first and to respect the designer’s wishes. Its not hard to get in touch with most designers/builders and simply ask them if its ok.
What has been left out in Nick’s post is that at least one designer that he asked said “No” and my guess is that others are also likely to turn him down. Nick is posting the same thing on a whole bunch of boards apparently trying to find people to support his doing what he wants, not what the designers and crerators of the boats want.
While I think its great that Nick is trying to build a website promoting IOMs, I have to think he isn’t going about it the right way. For me, the right thing is to ask the people who did the work and then respect their wishes as to what to disclose. Period.
i know that the IOM communtiy is a close knit group. and a very competitive group. the numbers that nick is posting. are what i as a designer might have a problem with. i will gladly give up my ideas. where should the mast be?. where should the fin trunk be?. but i will not give up 45.79 cm from the bow. giving up a rough number would not be a bad thing.
please people take this the right way. most sailors dont know why and dont care why? the mast is in 45.79. why does it work there? and not at 46 cm. there are people who would know why? and for those people. the information is valuable. but how could the beam. make a huge diff.? i can understand the rocker panel. but the overall beam? i have asked many times here. but never got an answer.
WHAT MAKE A SIALBOAT GO FAST?
is wide and shallow the way to go? or thin and deep?
maybe what nick is trying to do. is help the new designer get to where i am right now? i design for the fun of it. my design is not the fastest. but it works. now i am learning through books what is moat important. i listen to people like peter richards. don boyd, dave bowes and when i get him online letster., nick could just be trying to get people the information I have gotten over 15 years of designing slow IOMs.
now roy has brought up some very good pionts… why do we do this. we do this for the LOVE of sailing. not for finaical gain. we dont expect to get rich doing this. but i think a little consideration. would be nice. criag smith has done a great job wiht his ts2. and he should be asked if he would like his ts2 to be on the website. his choice. i for one would think " hey free advertising" but that is just me. the designer who said “NO” simply pull the boat. no hard feeling. we are a famliy.
but that is just my opinion
cougar
long live the cup and cris dickson
p.s. i have had help from real good people. in my designing . maybe we should thank them.
people like Peter Richards. who found out that my first boat was called the b and b boat( broom stick and bed sheets) he gave me a set of used IOM sails. and told me about the jackline.
thank you Peter
TS2 Clone is produced by Jamie Bennett in Victoria, Aust & is with the blessing of both Gary Cameron (designer) & Craig Smith (licensed builder).
I will own up here & say that i was the manufacturer that asked Nick not to post certain dimensions of my Disco IOM design on his site.
One correction with your account Roy is that at NO stage was i ever asked by Nick could he post information regarding my design.
I beieve that i have been more giving of my free time than any manufacturer in Aus with regards to both knowledge shared & sponsorship with product at race meets. I am always happy to offer any advice to newcomers entering our sport, but do not see why i should provide my competitors(in manufacture/design) a leg up, nor do i expect one from them.
Just to add another voice, and further add weight to the comments here and on other boards. Designs are the intelectual property of the designer. Therefore it up to the designer to decide how much information about the design may be published. End of story.
Nick - I enjoy your site, and other sites that pull together information about IOM designs - “The Sailor” being another one. Please keep it going. But - with the exception of photographs, I do agree that data about designs should only be published with the designer’s blessing. Of course any of us can run a tape measure over other designs at our local club, but I’d suggest that, now that the subject has been raised and discussed, additional data be added after consultation with each designer. There’s just no downside in asking the designer directly. My guess is that many will agree to at least partial data being published (max beam, waterline beam, transom width etc).
I have pulled the dimensions page on www.oziomz.com for the time being. Honest, you would think I was leaking stuff from Lockheed’s Skunk Works.
Roy remarked in another forum that respecting peoples creations is very important out of respect, if not legality as well.
So? I should ask people to give me a call if they want to right click on a pic and download it?
I don’t think so (apart from Roy). Public domain is public domain. Why should the convention for designers be any diferent to the conventions for photographers.
Nick
PS the designer was very nice about it and not acrimonious in any way at all, just to let you know.
Nick Lindsley
Australia 0418 727-727
Intl +61+418-727.727
nick
nobody is pionting a finger at you. I for one would love to know the rocker panel on a ts2. but i would just ask craig smith. you dimension page is a good idea. but just for the average sailor. know where the mast is. just is not important. but putting up a picture of his boat is. for people who have never seen a ts2. it would be nice to know general dimension. ie max beam. max dept. is the mast stepped? will it fit into a small car. stuff like that. the reason i got into IOM is the wife said i could build anything. just aslong as it fit into the car. will a ts2 or disco fit into my honda civic. take the mast off? is the mast bigger than 7 feet?.
i like the web page. and go there often to see the boats. i like the ts 2 clone and the disco
cougar
long live the cup and cris dickson
ok, SORRY!!! (mea maxima culpa) I was wrong about the TS2 clone, didnt know…though I remember seeing one in Eastern Europe…I ll try to get the url…didnt save it!
But anyway, my idea about the IOM and IOM world is still the same, if not even stronger…
cheers
SOME story from the past…not related to sailing…
"Some time ago…I wasnt born, an Italian car maker (???) bought some German cars (???)…why??
Easy, they lost many races and wanted to know why, they disamssebled the car(s) and took a bunch of engineers, to learn, study aso…The German car was sold 2 years ago…now living in my father’s garage with…0 kilometers!..funny how history went…wondering!"
Firstly to Brad Gibson, I see that you are doing quite well in the rankings leading up to the worlds. Good luck and stay at the pointy end.
Secondly to Nick. If you are interested we will supply you with as much information that you need about Mini40 multihull’s to put on a website. In my personal opinion unlike the IOM fleet we need all the help that we can get so close racing is the best thing for us. If all skipper’s have the availability to analyse designs and try to seek an edge or a leg up to the front of the fleet that’s what we need.
Brad and Craig have done an extremely good job with what they have done in their class over here, and with the strength in IOM racing in Australia being where it is, an edge for them over the other skipper’s is just what they need. So I think that for Nick to publish anything to do with designs without first obtaining the relavent permission is wrong.
BTW, the only figures that I actually “published” were supplied by an IOMICA rep. As far as asking permission, well I stand by two things: 1 - I don’t expect anyone (designers included) to seek permission to download my pix; 2- like the pix downloaders (and I am one too) I don’t feel a need to seek permission to publish what is clearly in the public domain, especially things like beam and body draft. Anyway, the page has been pulled for the time being.
Nick
Nick Lindsley
Australia 0418 727-727
Intl +61+418-727.727
Where are we headed with the IOM the same way as the Marblehead it seems. Apart from everything being “top secret” it is busy pricing itself out of existence, compare basic hull prices to that of the RM class. Not much difference is there.
This was supposed to be a class which Joe Soap in the street could come into and then progress up to the RM’s and the R10R classes, Since the start of the IOM class, one of the things was that any person half way competent with Glassfibre could build one.
Is the IOM going to go the same way as the RM class
I would say to Nick go ahead and supply what info you have been given by the designers with a credit to those who have assisted you, I personally would love to see a site where there are both pic’s and stats, that way I could then make a more informed decision about which design I want to go for next, so far it is the Carbonicboats “Light Ice” which has my attention.
This site would also act as a billboard for the various designers as newbies to the sport as well as oldies who are in the market for a new boat could go have a look and say hhhhmmmmm I want a skinny design, like that one, like that one, dont like that…thats it I’ll have that one.
So come on everybody wake up and thank Nick and give him assistance and some photo’s.
contrary to most third world countries (and some of wonder about Australia from time to time [:D][:D] ) there remains a specific difference between public domain and copyright information in most of our “developed” countries. That is proven almost every day here in the “Land of too many Lawyers” (Sorry Roy !)
Even if I pay for something, and I then own it - the ability to share/distribute that which I bought may include restrictions. I can buy your calendar - but buying it and owning it and publishing to a free website are not all the same thing.
Maybe you can put forth a consolidated effort on how to contact various designers about their designs. Indicate the designers who will allow freedom of specification publishing and those that won’t. And remember, a photo is usually copyrighted too and may have limits on it’s distribution - even if you own it. Case in point - the photos purchased from a wedding photographer really are not intended to be reproduced, even if you can.
That said - anybody know where “someone” can find … heh, heh, heh… only kidding!
gentlemen,
is it also immoral for car & driver, road & track etc. magazines when they publish specs and reports of cars like the latest mercedes,audi,bmw etc. in a head-to-head comparative test? who will gain more?the manufacturer? or end user?maybe the publisher?i dont think so.
ed
Edit: It takes more than a few numbers to make a good boat, car or whatever!
Thats why we have designers and builders…with their magic and secrets!![:-angel]
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Ed Morales
gentlemen,
is it also immoral for car & driver, road & track etc. magazines when they publish specs and reports of cars like the latest mercedes,audi,bmw etc. in a head-to-head comparative test? who will gain more?the manufacturer? or end user?maybe the publisher?i dont think so.
ed
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
I may be wrong - but with exception of the actual "performance’ statistics, my guess is the physical dimensions are those that are supplied by the actual car companies advertising groups. You don’t see to many specifics until the cars are ready for sale. Otherwise - why all the cloak and dagger spy photos of new, yet to be released cars painted like zebras? And names too - ie: “Project Daisy” ???