Sorry guys I could find my eariler postings, must be archived.
Last weekend I completed the rig and fitted to the hull. Here’s some photos, also look under New Classes/Spinnakers/gennakers for R/C boats for photos of the gennaker.
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Very nice looking boat…
Wis
Edit: good luck for the spin
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
More Photos
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John - that “seems” to be a lot of windage with that boom setup. Do class rules require you to count that as sail area?
Dick
The F100 class rules don’t limit sailarea, just height above waterline of 1850 mm (72.8 inches)
Doug
The forestay is made with a 3mm thread rod attached to the unirig boom and the rigging screw is threaded on to this rod. The jib boom (moulded carbon fibre tube) has a 3mm tube bonded to it and is fitted over the threaded rod, on top of this is the stainless steel mounting which is stayed back to the unirig boom.
This setup allows the jib boom to swing through a fixed arc allowing twist to be set in the leach. The amount of twist can be adjusted by the locking screw setup at the clew.
I have fitted a short adjustable sheet to change the angle of the jib boom. This sheet system is also used on the main boom.
THis method allows me to swing the unirig boom on to the centreline while sailing to windward as per the marbleheads but I rotate the mast with a belt drive (positive location for setting the gennaker)
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Mast belt drive
Doug
well I am baffled at the explantion that you have put above all I can say is What for.
I can tell you what i have done. I have been sailing it and it sails well. I think they are hard enough to sail with out worring about “Oh i need 1 degree of rudder trim” it is only a model boat not the pyewacket or something like that. Tell me how you measure 1 degree of rudder travel.
Any way I look forward to a response
Cheers Gappy
Doug
I have said before that i am not using collective to reduce lee way at the momment as the boat appears to have very little any way so i don’t need more complication. The foils turn in opposite directions when tacking and the forward one only turns about 10 degrees either side of centre.
I am happy with the way that it is set up at the moment as it is just a good feeling and achievement to have a boat sailing with a canting and keel and it been finished and on the water and working.
I am sure we all look forward to pictures of your boats sailing from what you have told us in the near future?
Cheers gappy
sooner or later
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Still scratching my head about your explanation of “collective steering” via programmable radio…
You seem to imply, that to changing tack simply flip a lever and the angle of steering, leeway etc is dialed in and you have no further worries.
Seems I recall at times, having two different settings for traveller, sheeting, outhaul, etc. depending on which side of the course and/or which tack I am sailing. When not “On-Board” un-like what you propose, how do you deal with changing conditions? Seldom (if ever) are waves straight on - one tack or the other has a “good” wave action, while the opposite tack you have “bad” wave action against the bow and windward side of the hull. This would mean you would need to set up your radio ahead of time for these angles and negative water effects. Now out to the race course, and you find that what you “thought” was the favored side really isn’t - especially after getting hammered on the last up wind leg. So now you decide the opposite side of the course is favvored - with different wind conditions and water conditions. Seeing that you aren’t on board, and it is REALLY SLOW to come in to change settings, how do you make those adjustments while maintaining optimum velocity made good at optimum up-wind angle?
And while handling the sheeting of the main, and while steering, and while controlling rudder, and while maintaining an eye on the competition, and while thinking ahead to tactics… You see Doug, It just seems that as simple as you want to portray, you have added even more things to worry about in an already busy racing process. The suggested process - “just dial it in to a programmable radio” seems a rather simplistic approach/answer to a rather detailed concern.
Maybe it is that easy, and maybe changing settings while underway are possible and do-able, but on a short leg, I would lay odds the peson concerned about boat speed and not worried about sideways drift, will be the same guy to round the weather mark first. In an effort to be unique, you have added so many more issues that could go wrong!
While I might acknowledge the possible improvement in sailing performance, - I would qualify that by also stating if on a long tacking leg similar to open ocean racing, and if one were on board the boat to be able to easily and quickly identify the subtle nuances of wind direction, wave action against the boat. And - Nothing has been said yet about sailing in a current !
I would venture a guess, that if you took two boats and locked the keel on one, while allowing canting adjustments, collective steering adjustments, and the whole host of other normal and required sailing adjustments, I know which boat I would put my money on to win. Then again, perhaps we will all be treated to a demonstration with people that have names and email addresses actually seeing the performance demo. Please don’t hold it against any of us while we remain really doubtful that this added bunch of attention-requiring details isn’t embraced by the r/c sail community without a lot of skepticism - if embraced at all.
The potential gains are so great tactically, in manouvering and in vmg that spending the time to understand how it should work and then implementing that precisely is worth the effort.
I have a feeling that when it’s all worked out with a little practice it will be second nature…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
For r/c sailboats, I have a feeling that it won’t be worked out; won’t be “second nature” and the gains “tactically” won’t be great.
Roy/Dick
I am going to have to agree with you I just feel after sailing my boat that you have more to worry about.
Doug what I fail to undertand is how you can call it a tactical gain where did u come up with this.
My boat manoveres beautifully at the moment tacks like a dream and has great pace so why complicate it more it is just not worth it espceially on a short course you are worring about flicking switches and so forth when you could be looking for shifts and positioning on the course.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
The potential gains are so great tactically, in manouvering and in vmg that spending the time to understand how it should work and then implementing that precisely is worth the effort.
I have a feeling that when it’s all worked out with a little practice it will be second nature…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
I guess I will need to wait to see and belive in the concept Doug.
For some reason, yet unknown to me, I am having a very difficult time in trying to understand the basics - let alone the unknown problems yet to be identified and associated with the process.
I see being on a windward tack and with gusty winds strong enough to require the keel to be canted to windward. To the operator, he/she is deeply involved in sail trim, steering, and tactics. Also keeping an eye on the “B” mark and watching the directions of close opponents and avoiding even closer competitors directly ahead.
As the boat nears the turning mark, the wind suddenly dies or shifts 15 degrees. (not unheard of) Suddenly the amount of cant is no longer required, and the windward located keel begins to drop down, without the sail pressure required to keep it at it’s intended (programmed) postion, relative to hull and water surface. As quickly as this happens, and operator is about 100 feet away and not feeling the wind let up suddenly sees the mast roll to windward as the keel seeks it’s most available vertical position.
How long to bring keel back to vertical relative postion so the mast is back vertical?
Will the mast and wet (possibly full-of-water} sails be able to be lifted back to vertical?
What if mast or sails touch a nearby boat to windward of this one or the turning mark?
What if a big and fast windshift happens where once again the cant lever advantage isn’t needed?
Does the operator steer down with the header - or drop the keel to vertical - or tack to the lift and have to transverse the keel from one side to another?
If the skipper doesn’t see the loss of wind or the sudden unexpected wind shift, - how can you even begin to suggest tactical gains ? I know “YOUR” last name is Lord and while you might have a bit of insight better than the rest of us - to even suggest an untried concept in pond r/c racing has tactical advantages is beyond my comprehension. Ahhhhh - perhaps you “meant to say” the competitors NOT fooling with all these whistles and bells are the ones to gain a tactical advantage from the system? Now <u>THAT</u> concept I might believe.
A gentle suggestion Doug —> until you can demonstrate this system in an actual r/c setting with all the unknown weather patterns and implications happening in a race situation, why not simply stay away from posting unproven, undocumented theories and results. In this case of your most recent quote, you once again managed to post an absolute! You didn’t even bother to preface with “In my opinion” – nope, just a flat out statement that remains unproven … “The potential gains are so great …” Yeah, right… [:-boring]
Don’t you get it after all this time? You haven’t proven a thing, just spouted more hot air/unproven theories, and until you do prove what you post there are some of us who will continually keep roasting you over the fire.
Perhaps the suggestion needs to be stronger - PLEASE SHUT UP! If that doesn’t work, then perhaps the moderators need to kill ALL posts - yours and ours whenever the same information is posted a second time? I have no problem with them taking on that responsibility. In the meantime - if you must continue to post these absurd, unproven statements and conjectures, don’t be surprised if there isn’t someone who will respond with a different view.
Simply prove yourself right and the rest of us wrong. Not too difficult if you actually build and race what you hypothesize.
Actually, collective HAS been tested in rc models by Bruce Sutphen of CBTFco; it works-no question about it…
Collective(turning both foils the same direction upwind) is what differentiates CBTF (CKTF) from just another canting keel. It eliminates leeway which reduces drag on the hull and keelbulb/fin combo.
Tactical uses of collective include overusing it for short periods to come up from under another boat-virtually moving sideways.
As stated above collective HAS been tested in intensive two boat racing in rc models:it does work and works well.I found this out when talking to Mr. Sutphen on the phone two days ago regarding the “balance” of a CBTF boat. Pictures of the two boats used in testing are on the back of Graham Bantocks new catalog(according to Bruce-I haven’t seen them).
Keep in mind collective is a function of the twin fore and aft foils NOT of a canting keel;a canting keel just adds power…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Hmmmm - … Sutphen … published r/c race results … <font color=“red”>“DOES NOT COMPUTE!”</font id=“red”>
I don’t care if you want to mince words … or acronyms … canting keels and collective steering have always been present by you as a “Together” type of concept.
Back to my questions …please be kind enough to answer questions about your proposed technology or remove the post until it can be answered…
How long to bring keel back to vertical relative postion so the mast is back vertical?
Will the mast and wet (possibly full-of-water} sails be able to be lifted back to vertical?
What if mast or sails touch a nearby boat to windward of this one or the turning mark?
What if a big and fast windshift happens where once again the cant lever advantage isn’t needed?
Does the operator steer down with the header - or drop the keel to vertical - or tack to the lift and have to transverse the keel from one side to another?
Dick,
I’m confused… Are you suggesting by the “wet and possibly full of water” comment that you believe that if the keel were canted fully to one side and there was no wind in the sails that the boat would tip over? If you step back and think about that for a minute, you will realize that it won’t happen unless the keel is so light that the weight of the rig alone causes the boat to heel more than 35 degrees. In that case, the boat would not have enough righting moment for anything but the lightest winds. Given a rig weight of 7 or 8 oz and a rig CG height to keel draft ratio of 3 (the US1M is about 2.6) you would need a keel ballast of less than 1.5 lbs to cause this situation. Even my ultralight US1M has about 3.5 lbs in the bulb.
On my canting mast boat, the transit time from full cant on one side to full cant on the other is a bit over 2.5 seconds with a 4.8V battery (I have measured it with my wrist stopwatch a few times and that is a rough average of teh measurements). Based on the servo rating chart that came with the servo, I can expect that to drop to 1.8 seconds with a 6.0V battery (which I do not have yet, but plan to get in order to provide a bit more power…). So full cant to center would be about 1.25 seconds with a 4.8V battery and 0.9 seconds with a 6.0V battery.
This is, of course, unloaded in my workshop. I might expect those times to change slightly when the sails are fully loaded. I run a Hitec725 Sail winch through a 4:1 gearbox to reduce the 3 revolutions down to 260 degrees. This multiplies the 190 oz inches of torque by 3.5 (a factor of 4 in theory, but in practice I expect some torque loss in the gearbox so a factor of 3.5 seems more suitable). This gives me over 650 oz inches of torque. The maximum torque required (based on the heeling moment required to heel the boat over to a knockdown with the mast touching the water) is 320 oz inches. So the most I am going to be loading up the servo is to about 1/2 its rated torque. So I expect the transit times not to be significantly effected under load.
As far as touching a mark or another boat. The rules are pretty clear on this. In fact, you should read the rules article in the latest Sailing World (I just got my copy earlier this week). There is a discussion on what happens if you let you spinnaker touch another boat because your crew botched the hoist and let the sail float off to leeward. This is a very similar situation to letting your mast touch another boat because you botched the wiggle of the canting stick on your radio. If you hit a mark, you hit a mark and need to do a 360. If you hit another boat when they had the right of way, then you need to do a circle. If you hit another boat when you had the right of way, but did not give them adequate time to respond to your mast moving all over the place, then you are in the wrong and need to do a circle. If you are leeward and they did hit you becuase your mast was vertical while they were heeling then they owe a circle.
I have not finished my boat and therefore have not sailed it yet, but part of the planning on my boat included the question of tacking speed and performance. I made a phoen call to Hal Robinson who has also built a canting mast US1M (you may have seen the pictures in Model Yachting). His experience was that the boat tacked very quickly compared to standard US1Ms and that the canting mast could be used to roll tack the boat. I actually chose to slow down my canting mechanism to make the roll tacking easier. I have not had a chance to try it yet, but I am looking forward to it soon…
Will Gorgen
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by wgorgen
Dick,
I’m confused… Are you suggesting by the “wet and possibly full of water” comment <font color=“blue”><font size=“2”>(1)</font id=“size2”></font id=“blue”> that you believe that if the keel were canted fully to one side and there was no wind in the sails that the boat would tip over? If you step back and think about that for a minute, you will realize that it won’t happen unless the keel is so light that the weight of the rig alone causes the boat to heel more than 35 degrees. In that case, the boat would not have enough righting moment for anything but the lightest winds. Given a rig weight of 7 or 8 oz and a rig CG height to keel draft ratio of 3 (the US1M is about 2.6) you would need a keel ballast of less than 1.5 lbs to cause this situation. Even my ultralight US1M has about 3.5 lbs in the bulb.
On my canting mast boat, the transit time from full cant on one side to full cant on the other is a bit over 2.5 seconds with a 4.8V battery (I have measured it with my wrist stopwatch a few times and that is a rough average of teh measurements). Based on the servo rating chart that came with the servo, I can expect that to drop to 1.8 seconds with a 6.0V battery (which I do not have yet, but plan to get in order to provide a bit more power…). So full cant to center would be about 1.25 seconds with a 4.8V battery and 0.9 seconds with a 6.0V battery.
This is, of course, unloaded in my workshop. I might expect those times to change slightly when the sails are fully loaded. I run a Hitec725 Sail winch through a 4:1 gearbox to reduce the 3 revolutions down to 260 degrees. This multiplies the 190 oz inches of torque by 3.5 (a factor of 4 in theory, but in practice I expect some torque loss in the gearbox so a factor of 3.5 seems more suitable). This gives me over 650 oz inches of torque. The maximum torque required (based on the heeling moment required to heel the boat over to a knockdown with the mast touching the water) is 320 oz inches. So the most I am going to be loading up the servo is to about 1/2 its rated torque. So I expect the transit times not to be significantly effected under load.
<font color=“blue”><font size=“2”>(2)</font id=“size2”></font id=“blue”> As far as touching a mark or another boat. The rules are pretty clear on this. In fact, you should read the rules article in the latest Sailing World (I just got my copy earlier this week). There is a discussion on what happens if you let you spinnaker touch another boat because your crew botched the hoist and let the sail float off to leeward. This is a very similar situation to letting your mast touch another boat because you botched the wiggle of the canting stick on your radio. If you hit a mark, you hit a mark and need to do a 360. If you hit another boat when they had the right of way, then you need to do a circle. If you hit another boat when you had the right of way, but did not give them adequate time to respond to your mast moving all over the place, then you are in the wrong and need to do a circle. If you are leeward and they did hit you becuase your mast was vertical while they were heeling then they owe a circle.
I have not finished my boat and therefore have not sailed it yet, but part of the planning on my boat included the question of tacking speed and performance. I made a phoen call to Hal Robinson who has also built a canting mast US1M (you may have seen the pictures in Model Yachting). His experience was that the boat tacked very quickly compared to standard US1Ms and that the canting mast could be used to roll tack the boat. I actually chose to slow down my canting mechanism to make the roll tacking easier. I have not had a chance to try it yet, but I am looking forward to it soon…
Will Gorgen
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>originally posted by Doug Lord <font color=“blue”> <font size=“2”>(3)</font id=“size2”> </font id=“blue”> Your questions have nothing to do with collective or the “balance” of a CBTF(CKTF) boat which are the subjects of my original post…<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
<font color=“blue”>b[/b]</font id=“blue”> I am asking the question! YES ! Besides, Doug has on numerous posts “suggested” (strongly) that a canting keel could even be used to right a multihull lying on it’s side. If a monohull sail is lying flat on the water, I am suggesting there is not enough lever length and bulb weight on the keel to re-right the mast and spill off the water on the sail area if the hull were to tip to windward with bulb at full cant position.
<font color=“blue”>b[/b]</font id=“blue”> I am aware of the rules, my point is that if a boat with keel can tilt to windward when the gust is no longer there, why would this make for a more superior, tactical boat?
Why would one want to add a feature, that must be “babysat” for every second of every race - to assure "strange things don’t happen compared to fixed keel boats?
<font color=“blue”>a)</font id=“blue”> If a canting keel to windward provides force to prevent the wind from tipping the mast/sail/hull to leeward - why is it impossible to assume that if that wind force is removed from the sail, that the boat wouldn’t heel to windward, and perhaps have the sail in the water as a result. On a round hull - standing on the windward gunwale can, in some instances, capsize the boat to windward. Not unheard of - and experienced several times. I would assume the same laws of physics, weight and lever length apply here as well.
<font color=“blue”>b[/b]</font id=“blue”>Doug - you are welcome to correct me if I am wrong, but the topic of the post was “CANTING KEELS” - seems <font color=“red”>you</font id=“red”> are the one who posted off topic when you inserted the subject of “COLLECTIVE STEERING”! Please do not suggest my posts as being off topic. They are related to the original topic posted, as well as relative to your change of topic about collective steering!
Apologies accepted !
Dick, just to start with the title of this thread is not"Canting Keels"!!.
<font color=“red”>edited by Mod…Dan </font id=“red”>
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
fast looking boat. how does your spin system work does the chute pivit with the swing rig? if so how will you get the shute up and down when on a square run it will be out to one side
btw your all way off topic if my interpratation is corect its about johns f100
Never hold your farts in.
They travel up your spine, into your brain,
and that’s where sh*+y ideas come from.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
Dick, just to start with the title of this thread is not"Canting Keels"!!.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Your are oh so correct Mr. Lord !
As a matter of fact the EXACT title is: “My F100 CKTF Boat” … and strangely enough, no where does the title include “Collective Steering”. I would suggest that “Canting Keels” are more of a part of the title, since originally YOU stated TWIN foils were required to compensate for lack of lateral resistance when the keel was raised. In fact, for some time your posts suggested a daggerboard was the approprate part of the “Twin Foil” portion of the name. It was some time after the intial posts of how fast a canting keel boat would be, when you began the chant of “collective steering”.
In any event - I don’t see the term collective steering in the title as a matter of fact !