Multiple Rigs

One of the major advantages model r/c racing boats have over full size yachts is the ability to quickly change an entire rig and sails. Where it can take days to restep a rig for a major offshore yacht, the rig on an r/c raceboat can be changed in under five minutes (and in the case of a swing rig, under a minute). Further, since the sails on an r/c boat are permanently attached to the rig, they never suffer the distortions and failures that sails that are rolled, reefed or folded undergo.

This ability to quickly change rigs also means that sail shapes, cuts and materials can be matched to a wide variety of wind conditons. Further, the rig materials and design can also vary. For example, the stiffness of carbon fiber mast tubes and booms can be varied as wind increase or decrease. In the Marblehead class it is not uncommon to see the top sailors have six or more rig and sail combinations. Even in the IOM class where you are limited to three rigs many sailors have two or three “A” rigs made out of different weight materials with different cuts to choose from prior to the start of a regatta.

Another major advantage model race boats have over large yachts is because the materials used in r/c sails are often much lighter in weight than big boat sails the sails can be glued or taped together and therefore have perfectly smooth surfaces. In the fastest of r/c racing sails even the sail numbers are painted or magic marked on so as not to interefere with flow. In fact, in many sails there is zero sticthing whatsoever.

Finally, because the amount of material involved in a model boat’s sails is so much less than that of a big boat, it is very easy to afford multiple sets of sails. The most expensive custom made sails are still priced around $100 (and some sailmakers charge much less)and the cost of materials to make sails at home can be under $20.

Roy,

As of now the class that I administer - the Fairwind class - does not have a rule concerning multiple rigs. And as of yet, no one is using them (although Rod Carr has informed me that he has built a smaller set for someone).

I am currently not in favor of adding a rule to prohibit the use of multiple rigs, but some in the class are worried about a pocketbook war erupting in our very inexpensive boat.

In your history with the various classes that you have been involved with, what has been the consensus among sailors about multiple rigs? I know the marblehead fleet here in Detriot is limited to one rig as a way of reducing cost and trying to keep people in the fleet. do you think that the escelating costs of 3 or more rigs has pushed people out of those classes or do you think that the added performance options of those mltiple rigs has attracted people.

Would you recommend class rules that prohibit multiple rigs for a new class of entry level kit boats?

  • Will

Will Gorgen

Multiple rigs on older development class boats is one thing and may be fine for those existing classs(but 6 rigs is expensive as hell). But it seems to me that rigs should be very limited on one designs and the wind range opened up using reefable rigs. Our spinnaker 50’s use a reefable main and have been for nearly four years of racing every weekend. The sails holdup and as a One Design the cost savings are substantial. I think on a new one design class rigs should be limited to one reefable rig while in new development classes a limit of say two rigs with reefing legal would help contain costs and still provide excellent racing and room for development.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Will - here’s a thought -

How about the best of both worlds (or worst)?

Allow a sailor to swap out any number of main and jibs, but all must be attached to the same mast and booms.

What you are now doing, is moving closer toward (most) of the big boat arena, in that material sizes can change, but the standing rigging must remain the same. This means that perhaps on different days, a different sail area could be used, but making it take longer to reattach a sail to an exisiting mast might discourage the 5 minute rig changes as Roy mentioned.

If someone can detach and reattach a main and jib between races let them, but the orange dot sticker applied to the mast must indicate the same mast and booms used throughout the entire regatta.

Just a thought. Them that can afford and are able to swap out sails - great - those that have fixed rigs - tuff ! Might bring the masts and rigging back to luff grooves or bra hooks to make sail changes faster. No “HOLDS” allowed for sail changes.

Just a thought

Will: There is a split in views about multiple rigs in r/c sailing classes. Fact is that in very heavy wind conditions classes that only permit a single rig often find themselves unable to get around a course. In light air, single rig classes often end up being unable to timely finish a race.

For this reason many classes, such as the r/c laser, have adopted a three rig system–light air, average and storm suit. This allows boats to be sailed in virtually any venue in virtually any wind conditions.

On the other hand, some classes, like the ODOM and CR914 have adhered to a strict one design concept and have limited racing to one standard rig. They argue that everyone is equally disadvantaged in all conditions and that the best sailors will be able to complete courses no matter what the wind conditions.

If I had to guess, I would say that the general consensus is that at minimum a class shoud have a storm rig in addition to the basic sails. Fact is, when the wind gets heavy enough without a storm rig you are fighting to keep the boat intact rather than to win a race. Dick’s suggestion is an interesting one. The challenge would be to come up with a system to quickly change main sails, since a storm jib preattached to a boom could be hooked onto a mast and the hull in a matter of seconds.

As to the suggestion of reefing r/c sails. I am not aware of any r/c racers who advocate or use reefing sails. In fact, I think the only person who suggests reefing r/c sails is also the only person selling reefable r/c sails. It makes no aerodynamic sense to take perfectly smooth panels and include zippers or velcro tabs. Further, the optimum sail shapes and materials for light air are not the same as for heavy air. Additionaly, building masts with removeable sections leads to heavier, less structually optimum spars. As I said initially, the ability to quickly change rigs and sails is one of the areas in which r/c sailiboats are more technolocially advanced than their full sized cousins. To suggest reefing over multiple rigs is to advocate old, retro technology long abandonded (if ever even adopted) by r/c racers.

Finally, as to the issue of cost. Most sailors who are concerned about the costs of multiple rigs are sailig in low overall costs classes like the Victoria or V32. In these classes any costly items (such as high priced sail winches, digital servos, high modulus carbon fiber masts) are problematic. However, for anyone spending $500 or more for an r/c sailboat, the cost of an additional rig should not be a deterent. Further, for the sailor who only races in one local venue there is usually not a need to have multiple rigs even if class permitted. On the other hand allowing multiple rigs lets a class race in virtually every venue under all conditoins.

One final thought, it is my understanding that the reason the Detroit M fleet went to a standard single “b” rig was in an effort to allow older, no longer competitive boats to continue to race with M’s of more recent vintage.

One thing I’ll throw in here is that one of the reasons you need to change rigs in models so often is because the rigs have bugger all in the way of gust response and you cant adjust the sail controls on the water, so you can’t de-power the rig on the water. Is that more technically advanced than full size? Models use the same shape in their sails for all legs on the course, if you did that in a fullsize race you’d be at the back of the fleet for cert. I dont think youll change that to be honest without stuffing the boat full of electronics.
The R/C Laser is nothing like the fullsize having different rigs, who in a full size laser would change to a radial when the wind got up? Fullsize lasers dont need to anyway, they have moveable ballast…[:)]

Luff 'em & leave 'em.

Note: shouldn’t this topic be moved to the “Technology” section since it is technical in nature?

Reefing “retro” technology??!! HA! Thats hilarious!! Based on discussions with three major rc sailmakers over the years there never has been a reefing system used on any development class or one design boat until my boats started using such a system which, incidently ,is not patented and is open to anyone to use.
When a rig is designd to be reefed by a competent sailmaker it works like a million dollars, is cost effective(saving a million dollars) and permits quick sail area adjustment.
Dicks idea is excellent and is being used to some extent already in the F3 foiler system where the main is reefed once then when the wind gets above 15 the jib is removed and the mast moved forward and the boat sails with an effective una rig. The boat is thus able to sail on foils thruout the wind range from 5mph past 22mph which is something for an rc multihull.
Development class boats that allow spinnakers have additional considerations such as when to change spinnakers and how many spinnakers to allow(use). Based on lots of rc spinnaker experience if it was legal in the class then idally three different size and aspect ratio spinnakers would be ideal. But they cost a minimum of $110 each so serious thought has to be given to the issue.
There is legitimate development that can be fostered by allowing multiple rigs.Unfortunately,many class rules make experimentation with sail planform illegal and thus the development value of multiple rigs is drastically reduced. Classes-both recognized and new- that do NOT restrict planform development include the 10 Rater, F100 36/600(theoreticaly), 3R , F48, and multiONE .
But, as a practical matter, in terms of increasing involvement in any class ,these days, a better solution is called for than multiple rigs.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

From what I have heard from people the Detroit M use a B-rig only one design rig because our wind tends to really die off in the evening and everyone was sick of changing rigs. In addition the fleet was nearly dead before the change. There was an article on our website concerning this but it may no longer be there. I don’t it had anything to do with allowing older boats to remain competitive. If you sail an old woody even with just a b rig you are still at a disadvantage to the carbon boats. There was a large increase on the fleet after the restriction was put in place.

I don’t know why I’m bothering to write this as there are no classes I know of that allow ketch rigs, but the great thing about a ketch rig is you only have to reef or change the main and you’re still balanced. The jib and mizzen stay the same. Ketch rigs are also great if you sail in a shallow pond and you want to have a shallow keel. the lower center of effort allows either greater sail area for a given displacepent, or a shallower or lighter keel.

I used to have a ketch that routinely beat a flock of CR-914s and it was only a meter long with the same sail area and displacement. The mainmast was a good ten inches shorter than theirs. (roughly)

Cheers

Really surprised that Matthew says that r/c boats can’t change the shape of sails underway. Most people know that (a) an adjustable backstay dramatically changes the shape of the jib; (b) outhaul controls are available on the skapel and on the Bantock swing rigs (the “gizmo”); © main downhauls are adjusted both automatically and manually; and (d) fully adjustable jib leach lines have been used for years. Further, in the IOM class, for the last few years rigs have been built in a way to automatically depower the top part of the sail when hit by a gust. Funny thing is all of these methods are legal in a number of classes and are widely known.

Finally, as to Doug’s point about his being the only boats that use reefable sails I can’t agree more. He is also correct that no other sailmakers for r/c boats (including every sailmaker who has built sails for every world and national champion) have adopted or recommended reefing systems. As to whether or not incroporating zippers and velcro on sails is advanced technology or “retro”, I’ll leave to others to decided. Finally, other than Doug I am not aware of anyone who has suggested that problems with the growth of model boat classes is caused by classes allowing multiple rigs.

Ryan: Sorry if I got the story about the “b” rigs in Detroit wrong. The story about trying to keep old boats on the water was told to me by the M class secretary.

[:-eyebrows]Let me tell you about the AC15 class which we sail in Wellington , New Zealand.
Originally conceived with two rigs of strict one design, with the added understanding that the race officer, after consultation with the skippers, makes a ruling as to which rig will be used for the days racing. This eliminates that silly business of up down up down changes and makes for better racing in the match race format we use. We have had such a windy spring and early summer that the designer has just finalised drawings for a C Rig to enable us to continue sailing without damage in gusts of 30 knots.
Any class that wants to be truly international needs to bear in mind the we dont all live in the same weather pattens and must make provision to be sailed in all conditions.[:-pirate]

nerds of the wold untie

Roy. Go to http://www.orgsites.com/mi/dmyc/ and follow the link on the right side for “club history” You can read the explanation there for the DMYC ODR B-Rig.

Ryan: I read the link on the Detroit club and it talks about how that when the “b” type rig was adopted older boats came back and were able to keep up with the newer more modern boats. I guess that was the basis for the story related to me.

Matthew: I’m not sure why you wanted to take a "shot’ at the model laser class and I’m surprised that you think that the r/c laser is “nothing like the fullsize” boat since the r/c model was developed by the designer of the full size laser Bruce Kirby (along with Jon Elmaleh) and one of the design goals was to try to duplicate the feel and dynamics of the full size boat. Those who race the r/c laser seem to think that this goal has been met and to date they have sold over 5,000 model boats.

Nevertheless I have spoken to Jon Elmaleh and explained that you have publically critiqued Bruce Kirby’s and his design here. If you would like to e-mail Jon, he can be reached at “jon@outthere.com” and then, if you so choose, you can explain directly to him and Bruce your views on their work.

Hang on a min Roy, I was not having a pop at the R/C Laser class. It captures the spirit of the fullsize boat well, its cheap, simple and has sold in huge numbers introducing a load of new people into r/c sailing. All that I was saying was that they are unlike the fullsize boats in the way they are sailed and the fact you change rigs. I can see that if they had designed the r/c boat as a moveable ballast boat it would have put the cost up by a large amount, which would be counta-productive for a boat like this. I am very sorry if I have caused offense to anyone involved with the r/c laser class. I have great respect for the designers of such a successful boat.
Roy I hope you will forward this explantion and apology to Jon and Bruce, to be quite frank im shocked that you have decided to go tell tales when you have totaly mis-interpreted what i have said. Also when I said about de-powering rigs using sail controls I meant actulally on the water underway, show me a regualy raced r/c boat where you have a similar breadth of on the water sail adjustment as a full size boat and i will retract what i said, again i think you misinterpreted my post.
I do not want a war of words with you, because it is a total waste of time.

Luff 'em & leave 'em.

Marblehead, J, Wheeler, US1M, 36/600, T36, and AC. Maybe more. Which one of these have you sailed Matt? Are you so sure of what you are posting, or is this just a “…war of words with you, because it is a total waste of time”

Doug,

Not sure how you would reef a main without destroying it? Maybe I’m misunderstanding, and some of you are talking about just cruising around, because of what I have read here you can’t be talking about producing a good VMG. Maybe I?m just to ?race? minded.

The fact that a club has decided to just keep it to one rig because it’s a pain to change them has no bearing on what’s good for racing. Races are not stopped for a skipper that want’s to change his rig, nor can he call a 5 min hold to do so. This is part of racing, choosing the right rig.

Greg, are you telling me that on the average US1M and all the other classes mentioned you can adjust; the outhaul, kicker, cunningham, backstay, jib outhall & leachline (same effects as moving the jib/genoa sheet car on a full size boat) ont the water mid race by r/c control? If so i would like to see one. The point i was trying to make was that if you could do all that you could get away with having less rigs, as you will be able to adjust the rig in the same way as you do on a full size boat to suit the conditions on the course at that time and the leg that the boat is on.

Luff 'em & leave 'em.

Greg, the Spinnaker 50 and F3 mains are designed to be reefed and the system works like this: First, at the selected reef point a tab with a grommet is sewed on the sail at the tack and clew then one half of a velcro circle, say the hook part, is applied to the sail so that when it is rolls it just stops above the grommet position on the tabs. Then the loop part of the velcro is stuck to the hook part with the adhesive facing out. Then the sail is rolled just like it would be to reef and stuck in place on the velcro circles.
The sail is attached to the mast using a wire running down the luff with notches cut in the sail ending at the reef point; below the reef point the luff is sightly cut away all the way down. The wire for the luff ends in a loop and is attached to a line for its lower part. The wire/sail is held to the mast with short lengths of 3/8" or so doublesided velcro.
To reef these rigs first the downhaul ,outhaul and luff wire are loosened then the Wing Tip part of the Wing Tip Rig? is removed. You next remove the upper mast section also removing the upper sail retention velcro pieces. Then slide the whole sail down and reinsert the Wing Tip and re- attach the upper velcro sail retention pieces.
Finally, you roll the sail until the velcro circles match and re-tension the downhaul ,luff wire and outhaul. Much faster to do than tell about it. Does not damage the sail and has been used nearly every week end for three years on three boats plus lots of testing before that.
Much less expensive and easier to handle than multiple rigs.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Matthew Lingley

Greg, are you telling me that on the average US1M and all the other classes mentioned you can adjust; the outhaul, kicker, cunningham, backstay, jib outhall & leachline (same effects as moving the jib/genoa sheet car on a full size boat) ont the water mid race by r/c control? If so i would like to see one. The point i was trying to make was that if you could do all that you could get away with having less rigs, as you will be able to adjust the rig in the same way as you do on a full size boat to suit the conditions on the course at that time and the leg that the boat is on.

Luff 'em & leave 'em.
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

LOL
you have just gone from this “One thing I’ll throw in here is that one of the reasons you need to change rigs in models so often is because the rigs have bugger all in the way of gust response and you cant adjust the sail controls on the water, so you can’t de-power the rig on the water.
to this…Also when I said about de-powering rigs using sail controls I meant actulally on the water underway, show me a regualy raced r/c boat where you have a similar breadth of on the water sail adjustment as a full size boat…” to the above post.

I know kids in my sons 7th grade class that talk like this. “yea, but…”
Matt, My J boat had traveler, cunningham, backstay jib trim all on remote. I was able to do quite a bit of sail trim with all of these. Just with a backstay the first post you made was proven incorrect. Now you want all of the above? [:-banghead]

I sail in several classes, some that allow only one rig, some that allow any amount but 99% of the skippers all use that one, some that allow any amount but only two are commonly used and some that only allow three and they all are utilized.

I truly enjoy when sailing my IOM the wind builds to ?B? rig weather. These boats just perform fantastically with these rigs in the high winds and bumpy water. There is no way that a reefable rig can perform as well as a boat that can change rigs in my view. Again, I have never seen a reefed sail on a rc sailboat. But again, what are we talking about here? People that just enjoy sailing around and making it look as much like the full sized thing, or others that are out there to try and win races? After reading how Doug reefs his main, I might bet that I could have changed my rig quicker in my IOM. I could have changed my rig and then back again in my US1M. And I still have a boat that will out sail a reefed main I?ll bet. Doug, I would like to see a photo of your main reefed while sailing. Ooopppss, that?s right, no camera.