Marbleheads and the Great Western Railway

At our pond, the decline in the Marblehead class has been real and very noticeable. Some of this is just local pond politics but it does seem to have paralleled the international swing to IOMs. I agree with Bob that it is just a down cycle, but the up cycle presumed to be ahead bears thinking about. The class will not necessarily recover automatically as the economy comes back.

It is a shame. I have sailed in several different classes, and they all have their exciting moments, but the M is the only boat that is, at its top speed, thrilling to sail.

I once came across a photo taken on a strange day in 1872 at a train yard at Swindon, a terminus of the Great Western railway. Fifteen miles of cold locomotives and empty tenders were lined up nose to tail. The technology equivalent of a fish kill.

It was a side-effect of a legislated change to a standard railway gauge in England. Broad gauge locomotives of the Great Western were technically superior, faster, and more efficient and doubtless more fun to drive than the standard gauge locomotives of the time.

But these technically superior engines were all parked forever, on that day, as a result of legislation that standardized the British rail system on a different gauge. Parliament had reasoned (correctly) that gauge standardization of the nation?s railway network was more important than the loftiness of the technology associated with any particular gauge.

So you could toy with the idea that what has happened to the Broad Gauge locomotives is a fair metaphor for what has happened to the Marblehead class. Marbleheads have been in fact been sidelined, not just by a change in technical standards, but by a change in favor of standardization. The current standard seems to be, for better or worse, the IOM. As in the case of the British railway system, the appeal of the IOM is standardization per se. Standardization is better for manufacturers, their investors, customers, the network and the nation. Never mind about high technology.

So what happens next to the M-boats? The crushing machine?

Hardly. M?s are not going to be scrapped. Their value on the market is drifting downward economically because there is less interest in them than in the IOMs. But the process is self limiting. The price doesn?t have to go down very much to dip below the (still energetically ascending) price of a competitive IOM. At this important crossover, you would have to ask yourself ? hey. Why race an IOM (which is, in light air, in my view, a complete and utter slugmobile) when you could, for the same price, race a fast, light, and agile M?

The Broad Gauge locomotives parked and photographed at Swindon in 1872 were not all scrapped. Most of them were modified, converted to the narrow gauge standard and put back on the track. Maybe something like this would be a solution for Marbleheads ? change the boat slightly to meet, or confront, the new standard.

This is not, however, an argument for standardizing Marbleheads in the manner of the IOMs. The real strength of the Marblehead class, versus the IOMs, is its indifference to (defiance of) technical standardization.

In other words, Doug is probably right. It could be that some sort of change in the definition of the class, to open it up to more innovation, would help put these many boats back in the water.

Best wishes to everyone for the holiday, Michael

These are some ideas of how Marbleheads could conceivably re-invent themselves to keep up to date with the technology being used in full size sailing. The point would be to renew interest in a class that has a long an illustous history
by increasing not only the performance but the “fun” level of racing the boat.
I’ve tried a spinnaker on a 50" boat and it works well and adds to the fun and beauty of a race on the downwind leg. I don’t think it would be a good idea in the Marblehead class IF the idea were to try to use existing hulls because it will add some weight. The boat needs to be pretty much designed for the spinnaker system in order to have it be effective within the rules. I believe that a spinnaker system on a boat designed from scratch could be competitive wth existing boats upwind and faster off the wind.
The next “turbo” consideration and one that has a lot of merit is to allow canting keels. If the keel was kept at the long length the canting keel would allow a net REDUCTION in displacement of around 40% of the ballast bulb weight for the SAME max righting moment as the fixed keel boat heeled to 30 degrees. However, the canting keel boat would only be heeled zero to 15 degrees in those same conditions.
A possibly better idea would be to reduce overall draft to around 22" from the 27" allowed.
Using a 55 degree canting keel ballast could be reduced to 5 pounds or a little less for the SAME righting moment as the 27" draft boat heeled to 30 degrees with the same upright sailing attitude as discussed above. This results in only about a 20
percent net weight saving but gives the boat a huge power boost with a 5" shallower keel and smaller bulb.
Whats more this could benefit slightly heavier boats by making them competitive-possibly.
The downside: 1) IF a boat was designed from scratch to use the canting keel it would be designed for the lower displacement and would probably be faster than a boat converted to a canting keel.2)-cost: if there wasn’t some cost saving measure taken at the same time the canting ballast was made legal.Estimated cost of a "glue in/bolt on system: $250
There is a possible way to “pay” for the power boost a canting keel can give: when the rule is changed to allow canting keels restrict rigs to two and allow reefing; restrict the number of keel bulbs to one. The net result could be a much faster shallower draft boat requiring the learning of a new but FUN skill at a cost possibly a lot less than current completely outfitted boats with 5 rigs and multiple fin/bulbs.
NOTE: because the Marblehead only uses around 1100 sq. in. sail area which is less than the F100 it could use the same canting keel mechanics keeping costs lower and development time somewhat shorter…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Mikes suggestion in the first post that possibly an injection of new technology could add spark to the Marblehead class and renew interest in the class was something I had not seriously considered. I think with last years nationals only drawing 10 or 12 boats that ideas to improve the class and create new interest could be important and interesting to discuss.
Surely better than letting a class just fade away…
And you just can’t ignore(try as you might) the potential of the new movable ballast technology that is making such striking inroads in big boat racing.
Certainly worth discussing in the context of reinvigorating an older class like the Marblehead!

UPDATE/further thoughts: the subject of applying new technology to older classes to help jump start them again is not new- in the old days that happened once before to the Marbelhead when radio’s were introduced! It seems so absurd to me that some people hear “new technology” or “canting keel” and go into brain fade. The particular details of the application of canting keels to Marbleheads are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT(and never before discussed on this website) than applying the same thing to a new design starting from a fresh piece of
paper.
Some who claim this is just repetition of the same old(?) thing regarding this stuff simply do not know what they are talking or complaining about. Simplistic assertions made with no understanding of the concepts involved serve neither to further the discussion nor enlighten anyone.Before posting try reading the background material available on this website so that you can understand not only the similarities but the differences as well.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

Some who claim this is just repetition of the same old(?) thing regarding this stuff simply do not know what they are talking or complaining about. <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
<font color=“red”>[changed by mod] Please stay on topic</font id=“red”>

<font size=“1”><font color=“teal”>
DOUG !!!

There isn’t anyone on this site, that can’t recognize that your constant repetition has NO BEARING on whether they understand the subject or not !

To criticize someone for NOT UNDERSTANDING is one thing - but to even “suggest” they don’t understand when the issue is repetitive postings is something altogether different - and apparently YOU don’t get it !

I know exactly what I am talking and complaining about, and as I have said in the past - it is getting downright tiring to read the same stuff - over, and over, and over, and over. If you can’t come up with something new, different and unique, I suggest you take a short vacation and come up with yet even more dreams and ideas that might have a shred of difference from those posted to date.

You have not had any difference in what you are writing from the most recent post, to your first posts - only the manner in which you construct your posts. S.O.S. !!!

Several in the past have stated it - and I guess if you can repeat - so can I …

No one disputes the technology being suggested - all we are asking, pleading, or suggesting TO YOU, is just <u>SHOW IT TO US ON THE WATER</u>! What part of those seven (7) words is so difficult for you to understand?</font id=“teal”></font id=“size1”>

[:-banghead]

Actually Doug it is very repetitive. We don?t need to discuss injecting new technology into every class. After a discussion about how class X would be affected by a given technology, more than likely people will understand how class Y would be affected by the same technology.

As for the down turn in the Marblehead class it all comes down to $$$. If you look at the classes with large numbers, almost all come in under $1500. I believe, as do many other people I know, that if people have to shell out that much money they want the real thing not a model.

Take the AC15 for example I would go out and buy a used 420, before I paid $5k for a model.

When the cost of Marblehead?s comes down I believe the class will take off again.

-Dan

Dick! First, you should try posting on the topic started by Mike-your off topic posts are not helpful.You can see canting keel model technology on the water by going to www.windwarrior.com and take a look at sailing pictures of the Ultimate Warrior! This technology is a lot bigger than me and has a wide variety of applications; this topic refers to one NEVER before brought up on this website!!!
My last post says it all regarding the simplistic assertions of repetitiveness repeadtedly made by you and certain others!
Addition: Dan, it doesn’t seem that you could possibly have read my first or last post in responce to Mike: there is a PROFOUND technical DIFFERENCE in the idea of applying a canting keel to a Marblehead vesus a new design: there has been NO dicussion on this forum that I’m aware of regarding the trade offs involved. You are 100% WRONG, as is Dick, in saying that the answer I gave to Mikes original post was repetitive -it was a thoughtful answer ON THE TOPIC BROUGHT UP BY MIKE!!! Canting keels are NOT “my” technology; they represent the most significant ADVANCE in monohull technology in the last 50 years!!
I even recomended against a spinnaker system! Its the details that have been IGNORED in ROYS post, Dicks post and to some extent in your post!!!
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Doug

I read all of your post, and I don?t appreciate your tone in your last post. Sounds like a personal attack to me.

?there has been NO discussion on this forum that I’m aware of regarding the trade offs involved?

I?m my opinion nothing you have posted yet to this particular thread is very beneficial to the topic of canting keels on Marblehead?s. At most your postings seem like some preliminary ideas, but nothing of any great detail.

As far as I know neither Dick or I have ever said or implied that canting keels, or spinnakers where your technology.

-Dan

Dan- no personal attack at all: I was pointing out that you said words to the effect that once you discuss applying a canting keel to class X you pretty much understand how to apply it to Class Y. Using that logic you said my answer to Mike was repetititive.
Wrong! If you had read the post as you say I ASSUMED you would have seen that the considerations for adding a canting keel to the Marblehead Class are totally different than to any class yet discussed on this forum.
Max sail area is limited compared to what it could be; current competitive boats use a max draft of 27.5 " : both factors not considered in the application of canting keels to IACC models, the maxZ86 or the F100. Further, I pointed out that because of these major differences a Marblehead could probably use the same size mechanics as in a One Meter canting keel boat.
I also pointed out that the idea of getting boats back on the water MIGHT NOT WORK viably with a canting keel solution because a boat designed from scratch with a canting keel would likely be faster than a converted boat.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

… a boat designed from scratch with a canting keel would likely be faster than a converted boat.

<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
“S.O.S.”

Until it can be proven on the water - this is speculation at best …“a boat designed from scratch with a canting keel would likely be faster than a converted boat.” !

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

Dick! First, you should try posting on the topic started by Mike-your off topic posts are not helpful.

My last post says it all regarding the simplistic assertions of repetitiveness repeadtedly made by you and certain others!
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

DOUG - <font color=“green”> and to the Moderator</font id=“green”>…

  1. My previous moderator edited post and it’s quote was based on your quote Doug - so don’t tell me I’m off topic. I quoted exactly what you posted! If you want to make responses, then the response does become part of the topic.

  2. Doug - the repetitiveness isn’t an assertion - it’s a proven FACT ! Do I need to go back and provide proof from how many (?) posts where the answer to everything is canting keels? Do I really need to ONCE AGAIN (in a repetitive manner) point out how many times and in how many locations you have posted the same thing?

SIMPLY SHOW US and we will end the so-called “assertions”.

and - since YOU brought up the topic of the Wind Warrior … I wonder why that company (person) doesn’t find it necessary to constantly repeat how wonderful his product is? After all - at least he has something on the water to show, discuss and demonstrate?

I’m waiting to see “something” from all of your past claims!

Thats the idea , Dick :to discuss the potential or lack thereof of using various new technologies to reinvigorate the Marblehead Class.
To say that a canting keel Marblehead designed from scratch would likely beat a Marblehead converted to a canting keel is not just speculation. An analysis of the system shows that a Marblehead with a canting keel using a long fin could reduce its displacement by 2.8 lb.s(1.27 kg.) or by using a shallower draft approach the weight could be reduced around 1.4 pounds(.63kg.). Thats AFTER accounting for the canting keel mechanism etc.
Few boats are capable of having their displacement reduced that much and still sail well.The shallow draft version might work for older designs though it too reduces displacement.
It is highly likely that a hull shape designed from scratch at the new lower weight would have a serious advantage due in part to being able to keep a max length waterline. It is NOT speculation but fact that a current design sailed at a significantly lighter displacement would have a shorter waterline.
Addition: whether I build one of these or not has no merit to this discussion at all: what is being discussed is whether or not the new technology could benefit the Marblehead Class or not. Answers or close approximations thereof can be obtained without building a canting keel Marblehead.
The biggest problem is that the idea is to try to do something that will boost performance cost effectively. At this point it seems to me that UNLESS the rule were changed in such a way to “pay” for the canting keel system (by reducing costs in other areas) that the canting keel could lead to a net increase in costs and no benefit to the class at all(except drastically increased performance). Which brings up a new subject for another thread: the M2…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Did you hear the joke about the dog that chased cars? Once he caught them, he didn’t know what to do with them !

Not off-topic… but I’ll indulge your “assertions” for a moment…

  1. YOU design and build a new 50 inch Marblehead hull that will handle a canting keel.

  2. YOU design and build a canting keel with a winch (or whatever) that will hold the keel at 55 degrees - or heck even 10 degree of tilt.

  3. YOU actually show up at a regatta and enter, with fresh batteries to prevent any retirement, and proceed to kick the butts of all other Marbleheads there that are racing.

  4. WHAT exactly does this give you? Just another homemade boat that won’t fit into any class, and until 19 other people buy into your idea - it won’t be AMYA recognized. (like the dog that catches the car!) Let’s say that IF you are successful at #1, #2 and #3, do you honestly think that the M Class will suddenly change it’s AMYA rules and allow the technology to be used in recognized M races?

  5. And - even if the US were to consider making a change, you are dealing with an International Class, and since you couldn’t prevail on them to allow fixed foil rudders in the IOM class, do you honestly think that 20 US boats will change the International view of the class rules to allow a canting keel?

Here are some facts …

A) you haven’t yet produced a canting keel version of anything that has sailed competitively, yet you make those claims.

B) you haven’t yet designed and built a Marblehead hull that would even work with a canting keel - based on your “experienced assessment” of existing design.

C) you haven’t yet provided a retail, off-the-shelf version of your canting keel idea for anyone to purchase if they wanted to.

D) you continue to offer profound statements (not speculation) on how fast a boat will be if it had your technology - yet I still don’t/haven’t seen any example of your technology being actively raced to prove it’s superiority. (I’m a bit surprised you didn’t buy and begin campaigning a Wind Warrior boat to prove your ideas - even if the boat and keel design isn’t yours.)

So - exactly how does this even begin to qualify you to make class reorganizational statements or suggestions about a developed and established class that has existed longer than you? What allows you to first criticize, and then belittle an International Class when all of your previous ideas have resulted in fewer boats sold to even create an AMYA Class? At last count, I believe you stated there were a number of Spinnaker 50’s and America One’s that were sailing in Orlando. Is there a reason none of these are being purchased in numbers to allow for a one design (or developmental) class to form and be recognized?

It is one thing to hypothesize how technology can improve sailing performance, but then I would submit the next thing is to prove it - before wandering off to criticize other established classes on how terrible their rules are. Remember - NONE of the rule changes happened in secret or overnight. All changes (especially in International classes) require a motion, a second and a ballot. I would suspect that when ballots were taken, the membership voting actually voted on what they wanted to see within the class.

SO - in conclusion - would it help the growth of the Marblehead class to adapt to this technology - maybe - if “someone” were to prove the improved performance. BUT - and it’s a big BUT !!! - it needs to be sold, voted on and approved by the International Class members first… so maybe, just maybe you need to rethink your priorities, and build something to support your claims. Then perhaps the classes might (just maybe) listen - although I would guess that few members would vote to increase the costs of a boat once again to be competitive - regardless if the technology came from Doug Lord, Roy Langbord or from a well know European M builder.

Here’s a hint…

  1. Design it
  2. Build it
  3. Demonstrate it
  4. Promote it
  5. Sell it

Hell - even GM shows a prototype of it’s ideas to the public. As I asked asked/suggested earlier … SHOW IT TO US ON THE WATER! What part of those seven (7) words is so difficult for you to understand?

Before anything is ever designed, built and sailed it must first be conceptualized and analyzed. That is the point of this topic: does a reasonably technical assesment of the merits of adding new technology -either a spin or a canting keel show promise for the Marblehead Class in keeping costs down and increasing performance? My conclusion -so far-is in my last post.
Your off topc points:
A) Again you are 100% wrong: I have produced three different prototypes(among others) that have raced competitively including the X boat, Melges 24 and aeroSKIFF.
B)Another 100% wrong: I have a MOLD and over a dozen boats built from it for a 50" hull that could easily handle a canting keel. In addition to which I have installed canting keels in a 42" hull(aeroSKIFF), a 53"(Melges) hull and in two 70" hulls(X-boats) and sailed each for a minimum of 20 hours with the 70" x- boats being match raced one year every weekend.In addition to which I have designed and had produced a proprietary canting keel installation module that is pictured in another section.
C) This is illustrative of your apparent complete lack of comprehension of the subject of canting keels:there is no such thing(yet) as an off the shelf canting keel system because there are too many choices of which system of lateral resistance to use to produce a single system that could be installedin an existing hull. And as I pointed out in this topic a boat not designed specifically for a specific type of canting keel system plus lateral resistance is not likely to succeed.
D) I have kept a current up to the month record of the progress of the design of the F100 CBTF and that will be updated as warranted. In this project I have pulled together the best technology, the best designer , a foil expert and other technical experts to produce a state of the art F100CBTF One Meter. Stay tuned for progress reports–and Dick try to reread some of the F100 posts so you understand it a little better.
You use inuendo and half truths to try to ridicule me and to cast doubt on the inexorable progress of new technology. You’re wrong to do it; it doesn’t suit you and more than that you are flat out dead wrong,inaccurate or misleading in the majority of your comments regarding me personally.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

I seem to remember an AC boat from Canada, that based on all the design data, was supposed to be lighting fast. But when it actually hit the water it was a dog.

What?s this mean?

All the hype, speculations, and predictions don?t mean squat till you have race results to back it up.

-Dan

In my opinion you have to have a better grasp of the big picture than is evident in the over simplification of: " …until you have race results to back it up". You don’t instantly jump from an idea to race results.
First, you have a concept that needs to be analyzed throughly before you even begin a design. This topic was whether or not a canting keel(or spinnaker)would help to resurrect the Marblehead Class. The spinnaker was dicarded and the canting keel was chosen for the next step which was to try and see if the canting keel(superior performance) could be implemented in a cost effective way; could it be used on older boats etc. All those questions need to be answered in such a way as to support the original idea-or disprove it. Then if it works as a concept a more detailed analysis can be done to go forward.
In this case-so far- it appears to me that the basic concept is unlikely to provide what was originally conceived of…
As to a canting keel system on a 50" nearly one design(M2): seems like the best approach from a
cost/performance analysis and from a practical standpoint because nobody thinks that the Marblehead Class would make a decision to cost effectively utilize this technology since many more than one rule would have to be changed. A one design class starting from scratch at this length with a carefull eye paid to performance(superior to a Marblehead) and cost(less than a Marblehead) would have a real chance as a class if the concept was well defined before any boat was designed.But that is another subject altogether…The only way to have race results BEFORE you have a design is on a computer.
With the cost of time these days it behooves one to do a thorough analysis and design before doing tooling because you WILL have race results in the end one way or another. But you better understand the part that comes before the design-it is equally as critical to the success of any project…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Just so we understand the complaints here–the topic started was not about the benefits of adding canting keels or spinnakers to Marbleheads; it was about mcg’s personal view on the reason for a claimed decline in the Marblehead class and only in one line in the initial post is the topic of “new technology” mentioned.

So what happened? Doug Lord (who doesn’t race or design or built Marbleheads) reponds by putting up a post talking about adding canting keels and spinnakers to Marbleheads. He doesn’t address whether or not there is a decline in the class (maybe there is a small one, but its still the second most popular class in the World); he doesn’t address performance or cost issues in the existing boats in the class (how could he, he doesn’t race or design or build marbleheads, heck, he doesn’t even go to major races to even see competitive boats perform); he doesn’t speak from the propsective of someone active in the class, he just proposes that technology largely proprietary to him is the answer to the question presented and when others complain that he has hijacked another topic on this forum he complains that others are off topic (now that he has redefined the topic) and then attacks anyone who disagrees with him.

Fact is the Marblehead class has declined in Central Park where mcg sails largely because of a very bitter internal dispute among the members regarding other boat classes. The principal reason for the decline in M class racing nationally is probably the availability of a wide variety of other choices at lower price points. Not a single active Marblehead racer on the national or international scene that I am aware of thinks the answer to any issues the class has or might have is to add spinnakers or canting keels or anything else that Doug Lord is trying to sell.

(Whew!)
Back to original topic-

I was thinking about the Idea of standarization in various classes as suggested by the original post.

Does standardization bring down cost? is the M class less standardaized than other classes? would more standardization make less sexy boats, but boats that are still pretty sexy but more accessible to the masses?

(This might be off topic)

If you took the same motor that is in the winch for canting the keel in a model boat, add its power to the motor that is in the winch that controls the sails to get one big motor, and if you got rid of the sails and the keel, and if you used this one big motor for a propellor, how fast would the boat go? (same batteries) Probably not as fast as it would with the sails, but it seems to me there is an element of defeating the purpose of sailing a model with the canting keel for this reason. DON’T GET ME WRONG! people can have all the HiTec toys they want.

Cheers

From MCG’s last paragraph of the first post of this topic:" In other words ,Doug is probably right. It could be that some sort of change in the definition of the class, to open it up to more inovation, would help put these many boats back in the water."
My first post looked at the two main innovations-the ones that could produce more performance than anything else:
spinnakers and canting keels. Spinnakers were only outlawed after being legal for 50 years a few years ago and I know for a fact that a spinnaker system works well on a 50" boat. But would it accomplish the idea of putting boats back on the water? Because the system adds some weight and because of other considerations applying a spinnaker system such as the one I invented to the Marblehead probably would not be a help in getting older boats and boats period back on the water. That was a conclusion reached in my first post .However, I also said that that a spinnaker system could be incorporated in such a way that it would be competitive upwind and faster off the wind-but it would not workin the spirit of Mikes post: cost effectively.
In my last post I concluded that IF the idea was to get people back on the water with increased performance and lower cost then adding a canting keel to the Marblehead class would probably not achieve the desired results.
Mr. Langbord accused me of trying to “sell” something in this thread but in fact I recommended AGAINST the idea of adding either of these two technologies to the Marblehead Class !!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

… from a cost/performance analysis and from a practical standpoint because nobody thinks that the Marblehead Class would make a decision to cost effectively utilize this technology since many more than one rule would have to be changed.

Your off topc points:
A) Again you are 100% wrong: I have produced three different prototypes(among others) that have raced competitively including the X boat, Melges 24 and aeroSKIFF.

B)Another 100% wrong: I have a MOLD and over a dozen boats built from it for a 50" hull that could easily handle a canting keel. In addition to which I have installed canting keels in a 42" hull(aeroSKIFF), a 53"(Melges) hull and in two 70" hulls(X-boats) and sailed each for a minimum of 20 hours with the 70" x- boats being match raced one year every weekend.In addition to which I have designed and had produced a proprietary canting keel installation module that is pictured in another section.

You use inuendo and half truths to try to ridicule me and to cast doubt on the inexorable progress of new technology. You’re wrong to do it; it doesn’t suit you and more than that you are flat out dead wrong,inaccurate or misleading in the majority of your comments regarding me personally.

<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

OK - so for the sake of YOU correcting me, once again, a barrage of words comes forth - but questions remain unanswered …

Based on the first part of a quote of your posts, you are confirming what I “suggested” … none of this technology will be on a Marblehead - because it’s very simple - the Class won’t allow the rules to change to make it that way… regardless of the “old” rules, it looks like we are in agreement that the new rules would be very difficult (if not impossible) to be forth coming… so why are we wasting time discussing “How to improve a Marblehead using this technology?”

God forbid that yet another new class (M2 - currently being billed as an “nearly” one design - whatever the hell that means) is about to emerge (in concept - not in reality) from Microsail!

Mark this date on your calendar folks … DECEMBER 29, 2003 - and let’s start a $5.00 per person pool to see who comes closest to when the new M2 Prototype hits the water - if it ever does. After all, it just HAS to happen and will be the fastest monohull ever!

OK so back to my “off topic posts”… as long as you want to detail them, here are a few more questions for you.

a) how come no one has seen photos of these miracle boats on the water? They don’t appear on your web site. You never sent me hard copies of the Aeroskiff to post on your behalf - except for the photos of the hull WITHOUT CANTING KEEL and sitting on a trash container! Yet this boat has “SAILED” and “RACED COMPETITIVELY” ? Are you kidding? You might lead me to believe that they may exist. And you might lead me to believe they have sailed. But “race competitively” seems to indicate there was at least two boats in order to race … hmmmm let’s see, that means for each of these three boats, there is a 'scratch boat" from which to judge performance. Why, my goodness, that means there are really six boats. Please post a photo as soon as possible of these 6 boats sitting next to each otehr. On water would be nice, but most would settle for a photo of them on land as next best. If you can’t simply mail to me and I’ll be more than happy to post on your behalf.

b) Wow … “with the 70” x- boats being match raced one year every weekend" - this gets better with every post. Now you want us (me) to believe that a canting keel system has existed for over a year, and they are raced every weekend? A year ? You got all these canting keel prototypes on the water, racing with each other - all in the space of one year, yet no one has seen them? Man … what ARE you smokin’? Since there are these 6 boats out there (I’ll even go so far as to assume they exist) I would think trying to prove ideas or promote technology, one would see a few photos of ALL of this activity - and on the water - but … oh, that’s right - no digital camera, need to get a special photographer out to take pictures, photos didn’t turn out, etc. …

If I want to be really off topic, I suppose I could ask why there are NO photos of…

  1. The Micromoth - that was the jumping out of the water, monofoiler that was to be the fastest monohull in the world. Sailing it would produce such high speed action and the thrill of jumping clear of the water (not sure why!) yet the August 10th web pages show the boat sitting on land, or floating (sitting on bottom) in shallow water. No sailing photos have ever appeared. That was 4 months ago.

  2. The Aeroskiff - both the little and the big. NEVER saw any photos of the little one sailing at all. Just (as noted above) a hull on a trash container! And the big one - a few on the water shots, but never saw any photos of it under “foiling” conditions as we were lead to believe it would do. Wrong weather, bad photographer, lost photos, needed sail recuts, … the list of excuses goes on. Again, another mid-summer post that never was seen doing what it would do best !

Yet - we are supposed to buy in that all of these boats are ready for prime-time. That the masses are huddled with fists of dollars waiting to be first in line.

And - I would SUGGEST that YOU do what you advise many of us … GO BACK to my post and <u>YOU</u> read the entire post. It WAS ALL related to the Marblehead class. - and what you called off-topic about your building other classes was an example I used which was followed by this question: “Is there a reason none of these are being purchased in numbers to allow for a one design (or developmental) class to form and be recognized?” Before you try to muck about in the “M” class that is happy with where it is today, why not get at least one class of your boats recognized by AMYA. THAT was the question then, and it seems you are side-stepping the original question. If you can’t get your own boats to form a recognized class, what make you qualified to offer advice on behalf of the Marblehead?

Regardless, I realize it is impossible for you to answer a direct question as clearly demonstrated. Will be fun watching you begin the same “dance” when the M2 doesn’t appear - oh, that’s right, it is “still” under development!

Finally - I cast NO DOUBTS on the technology concepts. I DO CAST DOUBTS about your abilities to turn ideas into reality to prove your assumptions (and they ARE assumptions certainly not facts!)

SHOW IT TO US ON THE WATER! What part of those seven (7) words is so difficult for you to understand?

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by mcg
Marbleheads have been in fact been sidelined, not just by a change in technical standards, but by a change in favor of standardization. The current standard seems to be, for better or worse, the IOM.<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Hi Michael

Your thought-provoking idea has got me back to posting on Chad’s forum after some years…!

I puzzle from time to time about the apparent success of the IOM, and have thought about a number of possibilities, but have to confess I’ve never thought about it being due to a “change in favour of standardisation”.

I too am concerned about the drop-off in interest in the M, mainly from the point of view of international radio sailing and the viability of ISAF-recognised “International” classes. The “A” class has recently lost its “International” status, and the 10R hangs on by a thread at the moment. It would not do international radio sailing any good to have the M disappear as well.

I’ve concluded that the success of the IOM is due to one “simple” rule: the minimum weight, which means you don’t have to be a professional builder to make a perfectly competitive boat. Because of this, the classic “arms race” has been severely attenuated (but not eliminated – the class continues to breathe and live) and the upward cost spiral has been steadied to a point which makes the full-life cost of ownership of an internationally-competitive boat affordable to more sailors.

Of course, the other IOM rules all help: a maximum permitted draught, essential to keep the class healthy in small ponds, and a strict “one-design” rig which allows a minimum number of standard off-the-shelf sails that can be used on your next IOM or sold on to your buddy without modification.

In a sense, the IOM rules create something close to a “one design” class, and I guess in that sense the IOM is “standardised”, but I find this sense is unattractive to most of the IOM owners I talk to and is not the reason why they like the class. Many of them in fact resent the detailed rules which achieve the “standardisation” or “one design”. What they do like is the happy result of this “standardisation” – very close racing, continued competitiveness (the most noteworthy example is the TS-2, I guess, at least 10 years old and just missed out on its second world championship title in Vancouver in 2003), and thus (the big one!) relatively inexpensive full-life cost of ownership.

Lester Gilbert